Physical, Incontrovertible Proof of God

[PapaToad]

So again, you are saying that people like me have sought him incorrectly?

Would you mind explaining to me, in detail, how to find God?

I like the wording you used though, you didn't say anything about FINDING God, you only talked about SEEKING God.

Huge difference.

Dv, please I do not mean to offend, but one two things had to happen, either something broke and wrecked your belief, or it was not there to begin with. For the sake of arguement, I will hold the 1st, someting wreaked iT.

I could go thru the bible with you step by step and explain it? I will if you truly want that for you, but what good will it do when you believe the bible is a lie?? When you have no faith at all, or so you claim.

maybe we should apporach it like this:

Before we get in to how to find God, which, if you were saved once, (which is something else to discuss later so please everyone leave that comment alone for the discussion) And You did at one time find God, so for the sake of argument, Lets both agree at one time you were a devoted and God Fearing Christian who sought God with all his heart all his strength and all his spirit.

So Dv back in the day you understood completely that you have three distinct parts to you, your flesh, your Soul, and your spirit. These are common denominators thru out bible believing Christendom.

As a saved bible believer you knew and experienced the Love of God, you have cried your tears of joy and faith, you talked and sought after the Lord Jesus Christ and knew he loved you and welcomed him in to your heart to change you as you need changing to bring Glory to the Father. (We will assume all of these you did and believed as a Christian)

What separated you from that belief? What convinced you, you lived a lie and spiritually as a myth and everything you felt and knew at one time was a delusion?? What made you believe God is such a jerk as to make Himself real to me, but unreal to you.

Then we can go right thru the bible and see what it says about find God, and learning that Jesus Christ is Lord and savoir. But if you have no belief or faith, or its destroyed, then you start this with disbelief. And that is something one can change but you.

So what turned you away from the Lord Jesus Christ you onced loved?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Dv, please I do not mean to offend, but one two things had to happen, either something broke and wrecked your belief, or it was not there to begin with. For the sake of arguement, I will hold the 1st, someting wreaked iT.

No worries, no offense was taken, I know none was meant.

But that's what it comes down to, isn't? Something that I, and people like me, did wrong?

Isn't it POSSIBLE, that someone can do everything right and still not find what they're looking for? Trust me, I prayed, I studied, I went to church, the whole nine yards, and I NEVER found incontrovertible proof of a god.

I will agree with you though, someone DID wreck my belief. I decided to stop believing in the unbelievable. I decided to stop believing in things without evidence or proof.

The grey lump between my ears runs on logic, not hope.

I found that I was HOPING God existed, something that many Christians do and fail to recognize. WISHING something were true does not make that thing true.

I could go thru the bible with you step by step and explain it? I will if you truly want that for you, but what good will it do when you believe the bible is a lie?? When you have no faith at all, or so you claim.

It's a vicious cycle, I agree. How does one believe in God without belief in the Bible? How does one believe in the Bible without belief in God?

maybe we should apporach it like this:

Before we get in to how to find God, which, if you were saved once, (which is something else to discuss later so please everyone leave that comment alone for the discussion) And You did at one time find God, so for the sake of argument, Lets both agree at one time you were a devoted and God Fearing Christian who sought God with all his heart all his strength and all his spirit.

So Dv back in the day you understood completely that you have three distinct parts to you, your flesh, your Soul, and your spirit. These are common denominators thru out bible believing Christendom.

As a saved bible believer you knew and experienced the Love of God, you have cried your tears of joy and faith, you talked and sought after the Lord Jesus Christ and knew he loved you and welcomed him in to your heart to change you as you need changing to bring Glory to the Father. (We will assume all of these you did and believed as a Christian)

What separated you from that belief? What convinced you, you lived a lie and spiritually as a myth and everything you felt and knew at one time was a delusion?? What made you believe God is such a jerk as to make Himself real to me, but unreal to you.

Very good question. I don't so much believe that I lived a LIE that I lived a HOPE. I realized that there was no REAL evidence for the things I had believed in. Prayer wasn't a two way communication, it was beseeching a higher power for help. There was no communication back. If the Bible were true and God communicated outright to his follwers, why didn't he still do that today? My finite, physical mind could conceive of better ways to create this world then a supposed omnimax being. Prime example would be the presence of evil in the world. I looked at the larger view of Christianity and realized there was no unity in these people. They all claimed to be followers of Christ, but they all had differing views and considered themselves right while pointing fingers at their "brothers" and claiming them to be wrong.

There was no one thing that made me turn my back on religion, nor was it something that happened in a day. I decided to use the tools that God supposedly gave me, my logical mind, and find him that way. What I found was NOTHING. No proof, no reason to accept the belief in a god. When I stepped back and took an OBJECTIVE view of Christianity, and religion in general, I couldn't honestly subscribe to them.

So I went back to square one. Instead of being indoctrinated by family and friends into my belief, I researched it myself. Again, what I found was absolutely no logical reason to subscribe to a religion.

If God exists, he knows precisely what will cause me to believe. He has the opportunity to grant me that belief. I have asked, I have searched in his name and not received it. If it comes, it comes from him.

That's what this thread is about.

 

[Avesther]

IF the God of the Bible exists, then you are limiting his power. If God knows us as well as he says he does, he knows PRECISELY what will flip our switch and cause us to believe.

Ah, forced acceptance. Some how that goes against the concept of his will to have us freely choose him and his plan of salvation.

 

[James]

It is impossible to argue about God to anyone else. I know God is real and that He exists because of the personal experiences in my own life. Not only has He shown Himself to me in many different and unique ways throughout my life thus-far, but I have found His Word to be true one-hundred percent of the time in every aspect.

There simply is no substitute for a personal experience with God. Therefore, if you want to test whether The Bible is accurate or that God really exists, then you must put in the time and effort yourself. Study the Bible and follow it, repent from your sins and accept Jesus and see what happens.

There are hundreds, nay thousands of people on this forum alone who could tell you stories all day long about God, but in the end the burden is yours to build a relationship with Christ.

 

[Eon]

How can you accept something that you believe not to be so - even if you very much WANT it to be so? Isn't that the point - many of us were raised in Christian households but we strayed off the path. Why? In many cases for us church was an empty, dead building. Or when we prayed we heard only our own voice. I have sung in two of the most awesome cathedrals in Britain (Saint Pauls and York Minster) and even there - well, it might as well have been a train station.

I tried to magnify the lord. Believe me. If twice weekly choir practice plus Sunday services plus special services plus daily assembly plus prayer and study doesn't count - then maybe the bar is set a little too high?

I was Twelve on the day I realised that not only was God not in his house, but maybe he'd never ever visited it. I walked out that day and I never walked back in.

Since that day I have visited burial mounds and sacred circles. I have visited venerated groves and fireside rituals. I have been to the Buddha of Karakura and to the Shitaya shinto shrine at Higashi-Ueno in Tokyo. At ALL of these places I have felt the presence of a living power. So I believe the problem may well be in vesting your faith in a book - books are dead things, possibly they don't hold power well.

Anyway - let's not get too far offtrack. That's my experience and my feelings. Remember that once I was like you.

 

[Didasko]

IF the God of the Bible exists, then you are limiting his power. If God knows us as well as he says he does, he knows PRECISELY what will flip our switch and cause us to believe.

It is NOT impossible for an omnimax god to offer us incontrovertable proof. Choosing not to and being unable not to are two ver different things.

I have to agree with you here DV. God could do that if he wanted to, and many Christians do try to put God in a box to make things a bit easier to chew.

The thing we Christians sometimes forget is, that it should not be easy to chew. We need to take it all or none of it. God chooses not to shake your hand in the way you have described.

I'm not sure why and I'm not going to try to explain what I don't know. But that does not make me doubt God.

Looking at it from an objective point of view there is way too much evidence in the world of a higher power for me to be an atheist. Looked at from an objective point of view secular science has such weak and incomplete theories for the origin of the universe and life that it's pathetic.

I know that you will not agree with me on that point. I choose to believe in creation and you choose to believe in 'bang'. They are both based on faith.

The problem with this thread is...none of us have the answer to your question. But you knew that when you asked it didn't you

I definitely do not presume to know the mind of God!

I just keep HOPING that God will shake you up a bit

I was Twelve on the day I realised that not only was God not in his house, but maybe he'd never ever visited it. I walked out that day and I never walked back in.

hhmm...12?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Ah, forced acceptance. Some how that goes against the concept of his will to have us freely choose him and his plan of salvation.

It doesn't alter it one iota.

I'm talking about God proving his existence, how does that affect free will?

Did it affect Adam and Eve's free will?

Did it affect Noah's?

How about the Israelites during the exodus?

I wonder about your terminology regarding "forced acceptance". I know my car exists, it's sitting in the driveway. I like to refer to that as a FACT, not forced acceptance.

 

[Dark Virtue]

It is impossible to argue about God to anyone else. I know God is real and that He exists because of the personal experiences in my own life. Not only has He shown Himself to me in many different and unique ways throughout my life thus-far, but I have found His Word to be true one-hundred percent of the time in every aspect.

Such as? What experiences did you have the proved God's existence to you? More importantly, do you believe there are those that do NOT have personal experiences with God? Or do you believe we simply don't recognize those things as being from God. If we don't chalk those things up to God, then they wouldn't fall under the catagory of incontrovertible, would they? Also, wouldn't you admit that different people require differnt amounts of proof to believe in the existence of God? So what was enough for you, might not be enough for someone else?

There simply is no substitute for a personal experience with God. Therefore, if you want to test whether The Bible is accurate or that God really exists, then you must put in the time and effort yourself. Study the Bible and follow it, repent from your sins and accept Jesus and see what happens.

As I have noted earlier, that is precisely what I did and this is where I found myself. Would you mind explaining this personal experience with God? How do you know it is actually God?

There are hundreds, nay thousands of people on this forum alone who could tell you stories all day long about God, but in the end the burden is yours to build a relationship with Christ.

Just a point of correction, there are only 963 members, not thousands

If I may ask, how do you expect a non christian to build a relationship with someone he doesn't believe in to begin with?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Looking at it from an objective point of view there is way too much evidence in the world of a higher power for me to be an atheist.

Care to share?

Looked at from an objective point of view secular science has such weak and incomplete theories for the origin of the universe and life that it's pathetic.

Hmm, that doesn't sound very objective. But, you are correct. The amount of information we have about the origin of the universe is pathetically small. Science poses hypotheses about the origin of the universe, it searches, SCIENTIFICALLY, for those answers. It doesnt' make claims it can't back up. You can't say the same for religion.

I know that you will not agree with me on that point. I choose to believe in creation and you choose to believe in 'bang'. They are both based on faith.

A point of contention. I do not believe in the big bang, nor have I ever made that claim. Why? For the reason you said, it is based on faith and that is not a sound, logical, scientific belief.

The problem with this thread is...none of us have the answer to your question. But you knew that when you asked it didn't you

Nothing wrong with discussion

I definitely do not presume to know the mind of God!

No, but you can make observations regarding the mind of God by taking a look around, right?

I just keep HOPING that God will shake you up a bit

A handshake would be nice.

[/QUOTE]

 

[James]

Such as? What experiences did you have the proved God's existence to you?

Well first of all He has saved my life physically on more than one occasion, in such a way that even the doctors had to admit that it was a miracle of God.

Yet more subtle than that... Every time I have a revelation about something in His Word, something that I normally wouldn't think of by myself; every time I read a scripture verse and gain insight or new perspective on it; that doesn't come from my own mind, it comes from the Holy Spirit.

Also, when people approach me (knowing nothing of my problems) and give me words of encouragement which are exactly what I needed; that's not them alone, they were being obedient to what the Lord told them to say. He knew of my problems, they did not.

More importantly, do you believe there are those that do NOT have personal experiences with God?

Yes. A personal relationship with Christ can in many ways be likened to a marriage; the Bible describes it that way in several places. Like any good marriage, a relationship with Christ takes experience, commitment, trust and hard-work. You can't plant a seed and then get a bountiful harvest in a day, it's a lifelong commitment.

Or do you believe we simply don't recognize those things as being from God.

That has happened many times as well.

If we don't chalk those things up to God, then they wouldn't fall under the category of incontrovertible, would they? Also, wouldn't you admit that different people require different amounts of proof to believe in the existence of God? So what was enough for you, might not be enough for someone else?

Even if God appeared right between your face and the computer monitor you are at you would still be able to deny He exists if your heart wasn't ready. That's why I said it is impossible to argue the existence of God with anyone.

It has to be a personal experience within your own mind and heart. You have to draw near to Him before He will draw near to you. That is scriptural truth.

Just a point of correction, there are only 963 members, not thousands

Bah, there used to be more. I think a lot were deleted for inactivity and I never bothered to look twice. However I trust my meaning was clear.

If I may ask, how do you expect a non christian to build a relationship with someone he doesn't believe in to begin with?

The same way someone who has been jaded by an ex-lover is able to find new love again.

 

[[toj.cc]phantom]

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
[Albert Einstein, 1954, from "Albert Einstein: The Human Side", edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press]

Okay, I never said that he believed in God. The quote clearly states a higher power wether that means my God or another "god" is up to the person that reads it.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Well first of all He has saved my life physically on more than one occasion, in such a way that even the doctors had to admit that it was a miracle of God.

I can't really comment on this, since I have no idea what your problems were.

Yet more subtle than that... Every time I have a revelation about something in His Word, something that I normally wouldn't think of by myself; every time I read a scripture verse and gain insight or new perspective on it; that doesn't come from my own mind, it comes from the Holy Spirit.

How do you know what comes from your mind and what doesn't? Why couldn't it have come from within your own mind?

Also, when people approach me (knowing nothing of my problems) and give me words of encouragement which are exactly what I needed; that's not them alone, they were being obedient to what the Lord told them to say. He knew of my problems, they did not.

How did God tell them what to say? Why couldn't you chalk it up to coincidence? Do you believe there is such a thing as coincidence?

Yes. A personal relationship with Christ can in many ways be likened to a marriage; the Bible describes it that way in several places. Like any good marriage, a relationship with Christ takes experience, commitment, trust and hard-work. You can't plant a seed and then get a bountiful harvest in a day, it's a lifelong commitment.

I don't believe that you can have a PERSONAL relationship with someone that you can't perceive with any of your physical senses.

Even if God appeared right between your face and the computer monitor you are at you would still be able to deny He exists if your heart wasn't ready. That's why I said it is impossible to argue the existence of God with anyone.

Eh? You're mixing up the issues. I'm talking about God proving his existence, not whether or not we choose to follow him. As I said before, I know my car exists because I can see it in my driveway. I interact with it every day. You can't say the same about God, not in an incontrovertible way.

It has to be a personal experience within your own mind and heart. You have to draw near to Him before He will draw near to you. That is scriptural truth.

That's not quite true. There are many Christians who have converted because they hit rock bottom and claim that God basically slapped them awake. So your statement is simply not true. Look at Paul on the road to Damascus. Did he draw near god? No, he was persecuting God's people, was he not? What God did was prove himself to that person in a way that got their attention in an incontrovertible way. Right?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Okay, I never said that he believed in God. The quote clearly states a higher power wether that means my God or another "god" is up to the person that reads it.

I just wanted to make sure, because many Christians use that quote erroneously.

 

[Genesis1315]

Science poses hypotheses about the origin of the universe, it searches, SCIENTIFICALLY, for those answers. It doesnt' make claims it can't back up. You can't say the same for religion.

But not everything needs to be proven by a scientific method for it to be true. This morning, I woke up, made coffee, start the marinade for dinner, got things ready for a picnic said good morning to my husband, fed the cats, etc. This is a statement of fact of my morning. It cannot be verified by anyone other than my husband (one souce does not make something valid or true). None of our 963 members can vouch for what I did. But, nonetheless, it is what actually happened. Sometimes, by looking for more that what is there, we can miss the actual events.

Gen

 

[James]

You asked me how I know that it comes from God and not my own mind, all I can really say is that knowing God comes with experience. Just as the more you spend time with your family and friends, over time you get to know them and recognize how they operate in day to day life. The same principal applies with God.. As He said in the Bible: "My sheep know my voice".

As to how God spoke to the others, I cannot say; only they can answer that... However I can surely tell you that they knew nothing of my problems, there was no gossip going around because I never told anyone except the Lord.

And yes, God can and does reach out to people when they hit rock bottom; and also a lot of people don't notice Him doing that (like we discussed earlier) and they instead try to blame God for their problems.

The first step to drawing near to God is to be open to Him. To open the walls in your mind to the possibility of God, then from there your perceptions will start to change; the burden is still on you. God does His parts, but we must also do ours, again just like any relationship it takes two.

 

[Dark Virtue]

But not everything needs to be proven by a scientific method for it to be true. This morning, I woke up, made coffee, start the marinade for dinner, got things ready for a picnic said good morning to my husband, fed the cats, etc. This is a statement of fact of my morning. It cannot be verified by anyone other than my husband (one souce does not make something valid or true). None of our 963 members can vouch for what I did. But, nonetheless, it is what actually happened. Sometimes, by looking for more that what is there, we can miss the actual events.

Gen

But that's not true Gen.

If I were to hop into my car and drive to you place I could rummage through your house and find a dirty coffee cup, a used coffee filter, the marinade in the fridge, etc etc. All those things are easily verifiable. You, as a physical entity, interacting with a physical world leave evidence of your existence.

 

[Dark Virtue]

You asked me how I know that it comes from God and not my own mind, all I can really say is that knowing God comes with experience. Just as the more you spend time with your family and friends, over time you get to know them and recognize how they operate in day to day life. The same principal applies with God.. As He said in the Bible: "My sheep know my voice".

Ok then, how did you know in the BEGINNING, that the voice was God? How do you know it wasn't just your conscience, which over time, you anthropomorphized?

As to how God spoke to the others, I cannot say; only they can answer that... However I can surely tell you that they knew nothing of my problems, there was no gossip going around because I never told anyone except the Lord.

And it can't be coincidence, why?

And yes, God can and does reach out to people when they hit rock bottom; and also a lot of people don't notice Him doing that (like we discussed earlier) and they instead try to blame God for their problems.

So you admit that God can reach out to people and there doesn't have to be the need for a person to do the reaching?

The first step to drawing near to God is to be open to Him. To open the walls in your mind to the possibility of God, then from there your perceptions will start to change; the burden is still on you. God does His parts, but we must also do ours, again just like any relationship it takes two.

Here is where the hypocrisy comes in. You expect, no, you NEED, nonbelievers to be open to the possibility of the existence of God, but you REFUSE to admit that there is a possibility that he doesn't exist.

Correct?

Guess, what? As a weak atheist, I AM open to the possibility that any god exists. All I need is the evidence and proof to believe in one. I await such incontrovertible proof.

 

[James]

A man was resting peacefully in his house one day when a neighbor began frantically knocking on his door, the man slowly got up to answer it, angry that he had been disturbed. When he answered the door his neighbor began yelling:

"There's a huge flood coming quick get out of the town while you still can!"

To which the man replied:

"I am not worried, the Lord will save me."

The neighbor desperately tried to convince the man to go with him, but he refused.

Over the next few hours, others knocked on his door and tried to warn him and convince him to go with them, yet he still refused saying "The Lord will save me".

Well sure enough the flood waters came. The man decided that the safest place to be was on the roof of his house, so he managed to climb up there and there he waited.

He watched the waters rise steadily, but he wasn't concerned. After an hour, he saw a log floating on the water. He thought about clinging to it and floating to safety but he decided against it, thinking "The Lord will save me".

The waters continued to rise and he saw a patrol boat come by. The two men in it yelled over to him "Come aboard and we will take you to safety!"; but the man replied back "No thanks. The Lord will save me.", and the boat floated away.

The waters steadily rose until just a few inches of the man's roof was still dry. There above him a rescue helicopter hovered over him and dropped a rope-ladder. The man in the helicopter yelled down at him "Climb up and you'll be safe!"; to which the man replied "That's okay! The Lord will save me!".

Finally the man drowned.

Confronted with eternity the man angrily approached God and said:

"God, why didn't you save me!?"

To which the Lord replied:

"Even before there was any flood, I sent several people to warn you of the coming danger... And when the flood came I sent you a log, a boat and a helicopter".

Don't limit God in your own mind by expecting some spectacular show of glory when something simple is all you really need.

 

[MeridianFlight]

Please note the word I included in the title of this thread: INCONTROVERTIBLE.

It is defined as: indisputable, not open to question.

The "evidence" that you claim is around us is definately not incontrovertible, nor is it EVIDENCE, especially EMPIRICAL evidence.

Have I given a serious look into ID? Yes I have, and it has a HUGE problem, that being infinite regression.

That being said, I am not a proponent of macro evolution either.

Again, I said abandon your presuppositions, as it's especially critical to how you view evidence. It appears that you already believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no evidence for a Creator. If you refuse to even be open to the possibility, then no evidence presented would be irrefutable, even if it actually is. If someone doesn't want to believe incontrovertible evidence, they'll find a way around it, even if it isn't logical.

Now my statement was general, and didn't mention anything specific. I said the evidence was all around us, which, taken just as it is without the presence of an explanation, seems awfully arrogant. However, you were all ready to jump all over what ever information I might have presented as not qualifying as "empirical", made clearly apparent in your reply. I didn't even mention anything in that paragraph! Remember, determining whether or not something is "empirical" and "incontrovertable" isn't based on whether or not you want to believe it to be true beforehand.

Can you be a bit more specific? What conditions specifically are you referring to?

Have you read Lee Strobel's The Case for a Creator? There are some pretty compelling interviews in there. He interviews scientists on topics concerning their respective fields, asking questions relevant to evolution and the possibility of a designer. Much of the information in the book touches upon recent scientific findings. He interviews astronomers on the "special place" earth seems to have in the universe, and the increasing improbability that there are other planets capable of sustaining life. He also discusses the conditions the universe was formed under with a physicist, and how life would be unsustainable if these conditions were altered ever so slightly. The idea of multi-verses, with this universe "winning the lottery" for sustaining life is also brought up. I could relay some of the things discussed in the book if you'd like, but I'd seriously suggest you look into it.

Neithe one of those men could produce a smattering of empirical evidence for the existence of God though, so I'm not sure why you bring them up.

Uh-huh, nice sig. Should that quote be irrelevant as well given its source?

One of those scientists, Francis Bacon, is largely repsonible for the procedure by which science deems whether or not something is true, and some these results are often labeled "empirical." These are scientists, men who dealt with "empiricism" quite often. Do they really need to have presented inrrefutable proof of God to be considered somewhat credible? If that's the case, then when did Edison or anyone else present irrefutable proof as to the absence of God?

Would you mind sharing your thoughts on these points?

I will in my next reply.

I'm not sure how much digging around you've done on this DV (it appears to be quite a bit), but another recommendation would be reading Patrick Glynn's God: The Evidence. Why? He was an athiest who believed logic revealed there was no God. After looking over the evidence (hello generalization), he changed his mind.

"Faith does not imply a closed, but an open mind. Quite the opposite of blindness, faith appreciates the vast spiritual realities that materialists overlook by getting trapped in the purely physical." - Sir John Templeton

 

[Dark Virtue]

Don't limit God in your own mind by expecting some spectacular show of glory when something simple is all you really need.

What made you think I wanted something spectacular?

Something can be simple AND incontrovertible, can it not?