Paul's Warnings of False Apostles

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (Vanaze @ Oct. 27 2003,2:13)]Heh, I wasn't talking about that verse concerning "Addeth or taketh away".

I was speaking more of Christ's comments on false prophesying. (Maybe it wasn't revelations, sorry, I was in a tizzy earlier).

Van

A lot of Ancient Authors would "Seal with a Curse" their writings, because they suspected the scribes of over editing.

For instance. If you look at the Old Testament closely you find that Jewish Priests are mentioned here and there and they are not of the Tribe of Levi. But, immediately after the Babylonnian Captivity all of these Babylon Jews come back to Palestine with a New Edition of the Torah and suddenly we find that the Only Family that is allowed to be Priests is the Tribe of Levi -- which, just so happens, was the majority clan of those who had been taken captive to Babylon. It was a huge Ripoff! But what had happened was that these Levi Jews had helped the Persians take Babylon by treacherously opening one of the City Gates (but for some reason it is considered anti-semitic to say "you can't trust a Jew"), and so when the Levites came back to Palestine, as per their agreement with the Persians, they came with Contingents of the Persian Army, and were able to establish their regime exactly as they wished. They did what Israel has recently done -- walked in and confiscated all the land and redistributed it among themselves. Anyway, this goes far to explain why the Jews were not able to offer a United Front against any invader for the next several Centuries -- or ever. There were too many grudges remembered between the different tribes and clans.

But, this is why nobody trusted scribes!

The Early Church would have another problem. Gnosticism. After Paul's great Luck in Pretending to be Christ, everyone who wanted to make a quick denarius decided to Pretend that Christ was the Voice that Spoke through them -- and everyone was writing Letters and Creating Doctrine. Rather than evaluating it on a one by one basis, as the Vatican now investigates Reports of Divine Revelation, they thought it easier just to damn the whole lot. Unfortunately it was a Political and not a Church Decision. The Council of Nicea was held only 30 miles away from the Greek Capital of the Roman Empire (the Political Capital was no longer in Rome) and the Emperor, not the Pope, Chaired the Council. Paul, was the Hometown Favorite, and we all remember that in Paul's Letter to the Romans he had advocated State Supremacy over the Church. So Paul became Institutionalized at the same time as all his Imitators were Rejected. That's Politics!

 

[LionOfJudah]

nice personal attack on me leo. more tomarrow

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (LionOfJudah @ Oct. 28 2003,11:48)]nice personal attack on me leo. more tomarrow

Glad you appreciate it. I was able to get away from work today. Tomorrow I won't be able to "come out and play" for quite so long. But, I'll try to come by and take a look. If you have anything special, then make it a separate Thread and throw a Leo challenge in it somewhere -- that will get my attention.

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (LionOfJudah @ Oct. 28 2003,11:48)]nice personal attack on me leo. more tomarrow

Dear Lion,

Glad you appreciate it.

I might not have the same time tomorrow as I had today, but I will try to come by and check a few posts. If you really think it a priority then PM me and tell me where to look.

Oh, and try to be specific within your posts as to what you wish to discuss. Often you refer back. Well, on a busy day I will write 20 pages of posts, not including the single paragraph replies. and then, at my age, it simply can't remember what you are talking about when you only make a vague reference. I am beginning to get a Picture of You though -- you're the kid that brags about getting a PHD. OH! I remember now! That was a pretty good personal attack!

But anyway, really, I DO expect more from you then what I have been seeing thus far. I know that this is only the Web, and that you are only here to have fun and relax, but , if you are serious about being a scholar then a serious challenge once in awhile wouldn't hurt you. Stop your slumming and apply yourself, and lets see if you really have anything. And you might consider, that it isn't you, but your material. Many Prot Preachers convert to Catholicism every year -- because, indeed, Protestantism really is indefensible.

Tommorow.

 

[CCGR]

from my limited experiences at the two evangelical churches I've been to there were many ex-catholics converted to prots. I'm curious if their is an "un-biased" statistic out there

 

[Watcher]

Quote[/b] ]The Bible only uses the word Brethren which means cousin as much as it means brother.

You are correct Leo. In Greek, the word for brother is 'adelphos' and sister is 'adelphe'. The word is definitely used in different contexts such as children of the same parents, descendants of parents, the Jews as a whole, etc. So yes, the term brother and sister can and does refer to the cousins of Jesus. So yes, there is merit to your argument.

However, different contexts give different meanings to words. It is not appropriate to say that because a word has a wide scope in meaning, that you may then transfer any part of that range of meaning to any other text that uses the word. Just because the word 'brother' means 'fellow Jews' or 'cousin' in one place, does not mean it has the same meaning in another. Each verse must therefore be looked at in context to see what it means.

In Matthew 12:46-47 "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to you."

Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not is mother called Mar, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"

In both verses, if the brothers of Jesus are not brothers, but His cousins, then who is His mother and who is the carpenter's father? In other words, 'mother' here refers to Mary. The carpenter in Matt. 13:55, refers to Joseph. These are literal. Yet the Catholic theologian will then stop there and say, "Though the 'carpenter's son' refers to Joseph, and 'mother' refers to Mary, 'brothers' does not mean brothers, but "cousins." This does not seem to be a legitimate assertion. You cannot simply switch contextual meanings in the middle of a sentence unless obviously required. The context is clear. This verse is speaking of Joseph, Mary, and Jesus' brothers. The whole context is of familial relationship: father, mother, and brothers.

Psalm 69, A Messianic Psalm

There are many arguments pro and con concerning Jesus' siblings. But the issue cannot be settled without examining Psalm 69, a Messianic Psalm. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25, "But they have done this in order that the word may be fulfilled that is written in their Law, 'They hated Me without cause.'"

He also quotes Psalm 69:9 in John 2:16-17, "and those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Father's house a house of merchandise." His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Thy house will consume me."

Clearly, Psalm 69 is a Messianic Psalm since Jesus quoted it in reference to Himself two times. The reason this is important is because of what is written between the verses that Jesus quoted.

To get the whole context, here is Psalm 69:4-9, "Those who hate me without cause are more than the hairs on my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, Any my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee no be dishonored through me, O God of Isreal, Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mother's sons. For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."

This messianic Psalm clearly shows that Jesus has brothers. As Amos 3:7 says, Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the prophets. God's will has been revealed plainly in the New Testament and prophetically in the Old. Again, Psalm 69 shows us that Jesus had brothers.

Did Mary have other children? The Bible seems to suggest yes. Catholic Tradtion says no. Which will you trust?

Of course, the Catholic will simply state that even this phrase :my mother's sons" is in reference not to his siblings, but to cousins and other relatives. This is a necessary thing for the Catholic to say, otherwise, the perpetual virginity of Mary is threatened and since that contradicts Roman Catholic tradition, an interpretation that is consistent with that tradition must be adopted.

The question is, "Was Jesus estranged by His brothers?". Yes, He was. John 7:5 says "For not even His brothers were believing in Him." Furthermore, Psalm 69:8 says both, "my brothers" and "my mother's sons." Are these both to be understood as not referring to His siblings? Hardly. The Catholics are fond of saying that "brothers" must mean "cousins." But, if that is the case, then when we read "an alien to my mother's sons" we can see that the writer is adding further distinction and narrowing the scope of meaning. In other words, Jesus was alienated by His siblings, His very half-brothers begotten from Mary.

It is sad to see the Roman Catholic church go to such lengths to maintain Mary's virginity, something that is a violation of Biblical law to be married and fill the earth.

Sourced from CARM.org

Quote[/b] ]The Bible uses the phrase, "Joe didn't have relations until the Birth" which only means that Joe did NOT have sex with Mary.  The same syntax can be used to say that "the man did not eat until he starved" (a quote using the same words from the same language from the Old Testament).

Joseph didn't have relations 'until' the birth of Jesus seems to indicate he didn't 'know' Mary until after the birth of Jesus which is what the Bible teaches. 'Until' is a preposisiton and is used as a function word to indicate continuance (as of an action or condition) to a specified time <stayed until morning>

Quote[/b] ]Now, to support my argument.  When Jesus was twelve and went back to the Temple and Mary and Joe had to go back, we find that Mary and Joe thought Jesus was with his "brethren" in another caravan.  This would not mean "brothers" since they would have been riding together.  It must certainly mean that Mary and Joe thought Jesus was with the children of his Aunts and Uncles.

Please see the argument above where the meaning of "adelphos" should be discerned in light of the context. It is poor hermeneutics to apply 'cousins' across the board.

Quote[/b] ]Next, Jesus at the Crucifixion.  Mary was alone.  Where are all of Jesus's brothers now?  Jesus gave over the care of Mary to John.  Where are all Jesus's brothers now?

His brothers did not believe He was the Messiah. It is even more appropriate to say they were ashamed of Him.

James, the brother of the Lord (Galatians 1:19) came to prominence after the resurrection of Jesus (see 1 Corinthians 15:7). When Paul was converted he treated him with respect (Galatians 1:19, 2:9) though he did not agree with his Jewish legalism (Galatians 2:12). By the time of the Council of Jerusalem James had become the presiding elder of the mother church in Jerusalem (Acts 15:13, 21:18). And in church tradition he is listed as the first Bishop of Jerusalem.

John informs us that during Jesus' ministry James and the other brothers of the Lord did not believe in him (John 7:5). Mark even writes that "When his family heard it, they went out to restrain him, for the people were saying, "He has gone out of his mind" (Mark 3:21). Jesus' brothers had come to faith by the time of the Ascension, and they attended the prayer group that gathered in the upper room (Acts 1:12-14).

John records that Mary was present at the crucifixion though he refrains from mentioning her by name. Matthew, Mark and Luke apparently make no mention of Mary being present at all. But we must look more carefully.

Among the women present at each of the three events, there are two who are named, one is Mary Magdalene and the other is Mary the mother of James and Joseph. Who was this second Mary? Matthew 13:55 provides the answer, ‘Isn’t Mary his mother, and aren’t James, Joseph, Simon and Judas his brothers?’ So, the two oldest brothers of Jesus were James and Joseph. Perhaps there was another Mary having sons called James and Joseph but if so scripture is silent about her. James and Joseph must have been household names in the early church so that readers knew who was being referred to and that is certainly true of James, the oldest brother of Jesus. Finally, this explains the apparent total failure on the part of Matthew, Mark and Luke to make any mention of Mary even though she was undoubtedly present at the crucifixion.

But why would Matthew, Mark and Luke all refer to Mary as ‘the mother of James and Joseph’ rather than the more obvious ‘mother of Jesus’? This must have been at Mary’s request; three writers wouldn’t independently act in this way and it has already been noted that John refrains from mentioning her by name. Perhaps Mary remembered the bitter lesson she had learned that her blood relationship with Jesus was not important and perhaps she feared that it might be deemed to confer extra status on her in the Church. And so Mary deliberately ‘played down’ her blood relationship; she was content to be known as ‘the mother of James and Joseph’. Her fourth son, Jude, acted likewise introducing himself as ‘Servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James’ (Jude 1).

Thus the lovely, humble spirit of Mary the mother of Jesus is revealed.

In the minds of many, Mary has been elevated to the position of goddess in all but name, she has been given the title of ‘Mother of God’ and prayers are addressed to her. Nothing would have been further from the wishes of that humble, faithful woman revealed in the Gospel record.

Mary was a normal, mortal, human woman who made mistakes and had lessons to learn like us all. After the birth of Jesus she married Joseph and had a large family. She now sleeps in her grave, along with other faithful men and women of former generations, awaiting the Day of Resurrection and the sound of her first-born son’s voice calling her forth.

Sourced from BBIE.org

Quote[/b] ]So, you see, from you absolute certainty that the Bible tells you that Mary had other children, you find that 1) You weren't that sure afterall.  2) Only the most careless people could have asserted such a thing with the certainty they claimed.  3)  You were lied to, and if you persist, you will be lying.

1. I find I am quite certain Jesus had brothers and sisters. The Scriptures support this where you have nothing in Scripture that supports your view. What you do have is erroneous interpretation which is supported by erroneous 'tradition'.

2. If you call proper exegesis of the above passages careless I charge you of the same error and ask that you produce Scripture to support your claim.

3. I was not lied to. The Scripture supports this view much more than yours. No where in the Bible will you find Mary is declared a perpetual virgin. Nor will you find anywhere in Scripture that states she had no more children. On the contrary, the above verses and more which I have not included seem to suggest otherwise.

 

[Thaddius]

I just want to add something about His brothers and sisters. In the Book of Mark Chapter 3 vs 32 also talks about His "mother and brothers coming to see him" It is the same word used as before, adelphos.

Quote[/b] ] 31. And His mother and His brothers arrived, and standing outside they sent word to Him, and called Him.
32. And a multitude was sitting around Him, and they said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You."

Anyway, I know its not really important to the arguement but it is another place where they are mentioned.

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (Thaddius @ Oct. 29 2003,11:21)]I just want to add something about His brothers and sisters.  In the Book of Mark Chapter 3 vs 32 also talks about His "mother and brothers coming to see him"  It is the same word used as before, adelphos.

Quote[/b] ] 31. And His mother and His brothers arrived, and standing outside they sent word to Him, and called Him.
32. And a multitude was sitting around Him, and they said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You."

Anyway, I know its not really important to the arguement but it is another place where they are mentioned.

Thadius,

No matter how many times you bring up an inadequate translation you will not change the fact that in Aramaic the same word is used for both Cousin and Brother. What, you want to go to Blueletterbible.org and come up with every instance of the word 'brother' in the new testament -- it will all resolve to the same thing. What you need to do is try to find the word "cousin" anywhere -- and then you will be surprised to find that Jesus who had so many brothers did not have a single cousin.

 

[Guest]

Dear Watcher,

I want you to imagine something. Imagine that God is real. That Christ is real. Not just some belief system that you get to juggle in your head. Okay, now, as much as you hate Her, now imagine that Mary is Real.

This Real Person, Mary, has been appearing quite frequently giving us all sorts of Divine Revelation. Remember -- Religion is Real -- not just some belief systems that you are playing around with. In this Real Religion we learn Real Things. One of the Real Things we learn is that Mary is Perpetually Virgin.

Now, Satan can show you a million ways to insult Mary using Scripture -- that is what Satan does. that is obviously what you enjoy doing most. I hope with all my heart that you will burn in hell for it -- really ... at this moment I am dropping on my knees "Oh Holy Lord please bring the Wrath of God down on those snivelly Prot worms who can't let up on insulting your Precious Ever Virgin Blessed Mother -- May they Burn in Hell! May their torment be never ending".

There, is that a logical enough response to your scholarly presentation for why Satan should be victorious.

 

[Malohaut]

Dear Mr. Leo

 You have charged Thaddius as presenting an inadequate translation.  Yet all translations we know of in English seem to say the exact same thing.  If it meant 'cousin', then why was it not translated as cousin?  In any case, if Thaddius's translation is incorrect, and all of the following, which say the same, are incorrect, then what translation can we trust?

NIV
"A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you."

New American Standard
"A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you."

The Message
"He was surrounded by the crowd when he was given the message, "Your mother and brothers and sisters are outside looking for you."

Amplified
"And a crowd was sitting around Him, and they said to Him, Your mother and Your brothers and Your sisters are outside asking for You."

New Living Translation
"There was a crowd around Jesus, and someone said, "Your mother and your brothers and sisters are outside, asking for you."

King James Version
"And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee."

English Standard Version
"And a crowd was sitting around him, and they said to him, "Your mother and your brothers are outside, seeking you."

Contemporary English Version
"The crowd that was sitting around Jesus told him, "Your mother and your brothers and sisters are outside and want to see you."

New Kings James Version
"And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, "Look, Your mother and Your brothers are outside seeking You."

21st Century King James Version
"And the multitude sat about Him, and they said unto Him, "Behold, thy mother and thy brethren outside seek for thee."

Worldwide English
"And the multitude sat about Him, and they said unto Him, "Behold, thy mother and thy brethren outside seek for thee"

Youngs Literal Translation
"and a multitude was sitting about him, and they said to him, `Lo, thy mother and thy brethren without do seek thee."

Darby Translation
"And a crowd sat around him. And they said to him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren seek thee without."

Wycliffe New Testament
"And the people sat about him [And the company sat about him]; and they said to him, Lo! thy mother and thy brethren withoutforth seek thee."

New International Version - UK
"A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you."


So if all these translations are considered inaccurate, then what can we trust?  Which translation do you use Leo?




Oh. And one more thing. I would like to bring up your prayer:

""Oh Holy Lord please bring the Wrath of God down on those snivelly Prot worms who can't let up on insulting your Precious Ever Virgin Blessed Mother -- May they Burn in Hell! May their torment be never ending". "

And now a scripture spoken by Jesus:

Matthew 7 : 1 - 2 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

So I ask that when you are debating about a particular topic, please keep your focus on those comments and do not turn attacks, insults, and 'prayers' against the people here. I, as well as others, try to respect who you are, so please respect us as people. Even if we are lost people in your eyes, we are still redeemable and not worthy of such early judgement. So please, keep your comments on the topic and off the people. Tis just a minor request.

 

[Watcher]

Quote[/b] ]There, is that a logical enough response to your scholarly presentation for why Satan should be victorious.

No, actually it lacks very much in logic but your hate filled response is very becoming of you. I'll just assume you are in the process of gathering proper theological textual interpretations that support your arguments. Until then, may we please lighten up on the rhetoric.

 

[Kidan]

Quote[/b] (Leo Volont @ Oct. 30 2003,3:49)]  This Real Person, Mary, has been appearing quite frequently giving us all sorts of Divine Revelation.  

Now why on earth would Mary be giving us Divine Revelation if she's not divine?  Mary is not God.  Even you agreed with that, so why would she be giving us Divine Guidance?

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] (Malohaut @ Oct. 30 2003,6:20)]Yet all translations we know of in English seem to say the exact same thing.  If it meant 'cousin', then why was it not translated as cousin?  In any case, if Thaddius's translation is incorrect, and all of the following, which say the same, are incorrect, then what translation can we trust?

Revised Standard Version.

Mark 3:31 - 32
[31] And his mother and his brothers came; and standing outside they sent to him and called him.
[32] And a crowd was sitting about him; and they said to him, "Your mother and your brothers are outside, asking for you."

*shrug*

 

[LionOfJudah]

would lead one to ask why is Mary and Jesus' cousins hanging out together, sinse they do not believe in them and they have their own mother......

 

[Guest]

i am by your great ignorance in all SPIRITUAL THINGS CHALLENGED TO OVERCOME YOUR STIFFNECK!
But mr leo, as far as having insults for you goes, here is how it actually works:for i HAVE BROUGHT YOU THE TRUTHE, IT IS THE TRUTHE THAT HAS MADE OF me YOUR ENEMY.
And SO the favorite ploy of men DEFEATED IN SPIRITUAL THINGS is to claim they have been INSULTED.
Surely little one, you can do better than that!
Try harder to bring something tangible for me to work with.
Again since you ARE ANIT-PAUL, it follows in a very logical fashion you would not believe that to say JESUS IS THE LORD, ACTUALLY MEANS THE HOLY GHOST EXISTS AND ENABLED me TO SAY JESUS IS THE LORD.
So then you could not KNOW THE HOLY GHOST!
YOU CAN NOT UTTER THE FOUR OR THREE WORDS!
THE LORD JESUS. AMEN
i am nothing0.
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA. AMEN

 

[Guest]

Watcher why do you spew such hatred concerning the faithe and esteem the brothers(their mother being Mary) had for Jesus.
Did it not even once occur to you, that to keep THEM ALL OUT OF HARMS WAY, JESUS HAD THEM GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.
i have the very same relationship with THE LORD JESUS, when it comes time for me to do what i will go to do, THE LORD WILL REMOVE my IMMEDIATE FAMILY FROM HARMS WAY.
In fact they will watch the things i will do from the clouds. amen
i am nothing0.
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1YESHUA IS THE LORD1. AMEN

 

[Watcher]

Quote[/b] (adelpit346 @ Oct. 31 2003,10:42)]Watcher why do you spew such hatred concerning the faithe and esteem the brothers(their mother being Mary) had for Jesus.
Did it not even once occur to you, that to keep THEM ALL OUT OF HARMS WAY, JESUS HAD THEM GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.
i have the very same relationship with THE LORD JESUS, when it comes time for me to do what i will go to do, THE LORD WILL REMOVE my IMMEDIATE FAMILY FROM HARMS WAY.
In fact they will watch the things i will do from the clouds. amen
i am nothing0.
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1YESHUA IS THE LORD1. AMEN

Aldelpit,

I'm having trouble understanding the point of your post. You'll have to articulate it a little better for me please. As far as hatred spewing from my mouth, I'd have to ask you to show me which words I used which could possibly be constrewed as hatred.

Here's the bottom line...if anyone is going to claim divine revelation and it's in conflict with the Word of God, it's called false doctrine.

So if you, Leo, myself, or any brother or sister in Christ wants to assert revelation that is contrary to the Word of God, be prepared to be held accountable.

 

[Guest]

Dear Malohaut,

Summon all your mental strength and try to follow this. If a language does not distinguish between brother and cousin, a translator, in the absence of a genealogy, will not know whether to translate as 'brother' or 'cousin'. Some translators are even unaware of the problem. You look up the word and it says "brother" without also telling you that there is no word in the language for the concept cousin.

Now, I, with the benefit of Divine Revelation could easily translate all these brother brother brothers as cousins and clan. That would be the Truth.

Oh, and about the Judge not and be not judged. That would be sweet, wouldn't it. But this has not been the first time that I have had to defend Mary's Virtue, and not the first time these same attackers have attacked. Besides, some of the Greatest Saints understood that it is well to remind ones audiance that Fear of God is the Beginning of Wisdom. St. Patrick came to Ireland and challenged the Druids to a Debate. After a contemptuous discourse the Druid Champion ended with a joke at St. Patrick's expense. Ha ha ha. Saint Patrick gave no big speech but only said, "So you think that's funny? Well drop dead!" And the Druid Champion keeled over and was dead before he hit the ground. The Moderator then jumped up and said "You can't do that. This is a Debate". St. Patrick said, "So you are going to be a problem too? Well, you can drop dead too". With two dead Druids on the ground, the rest thought they would have a greater life expectancy as Catholics.

No, that judge and be not judged is meant to cover the venial sins -- the sins of Original Sin. Attacking the Mother of God day in and day out as ones' mission in life -- if anything is a Siding with Satan that deserves Eternal Damnation , that is it. Besides, its not really Me Judging. I'm just giving out the Truth. In a Universe where Mary is Queen of Heaven and Earth, Her Enemies will be Damned. Do you think Lord Jesus Christ will let these souls into heaven who would everyday call Mary a slut to Her Face. I think not.

But, heck, I'll compromise. Don't say that I judge, but that it is my conviction and opinion that the Enemies of Our Lady will roast in the Hottest Fires of Hell. And not one will be able to say that they had not been warned a hundred times.

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (Kidan @ Oct. 30 2003,8:14)]

Quote[/b] (Leo Volont @ Oct. 30 2003,3:49)]  This Real Person, Mary, has been appearing quite frequently giving us all sorts of Divine Revelation.  

Now why on earth would Mary be giving us Divine Revelation if she's not divine?  Mary is not God.  Even you agreed with that, so why would she be giving us Divine Guidance?

Dear Kidan,

Now, don't you really know that you are just playing with words.

The Old Testament Prophets could give us Divine Revelation "without being God". The Angels can give Divine Revelation "without being God".

do you know what Agency means? Do you know the concept of being a messenger?

You know, what I think it is is not that everyone is really as stupid as they pretend to be. It is simple meanspirited endeaver to be confrontational. People will grab at any straw to beat someone over the head -- even if beating them with a 'straw' is profoundly ridiculous. it is the 'lawyer' mentality -- never allow youself to even think of something that may favor ones opponent. So we have Kadash, here, pretending that he does not realize that Mary Queen of Heaven, though a Creature, would probably have some idea after 2000 years of what the ground swell in Heaven was. Or maybe Kabob thinks that Mary is as stupid as .... a real stupid person.

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (Big J @ Oct. 30 2003,5:23)]

Quote[/b] (Malohaut @ Oct. 30 2003,6:20)]Yet all translations we know of in English seem to say the exact same thing.  If it meant 'cousin', then why was it not translated as cousin?  In any case, if Thaddius's translation is incorrect, and all of the following, which say the same, are incorrect, then what translation can we trust?

Revised Standard Version.

Mark 3:31 - 32
[31] And his mother and his brothers came; and standing outside they sent to him and called him.
[32] And a crowd was sitting about him; and they said to him, "Your mother and your brothers are outside, asking for you."

*shrug*

As I said in another Post somewhere, the translators are stuck without a word. If there is no concept of cousin in another language, then what could possibly give you the clue to use the word cousin.

Now, when the Bible was first canonized, it wasn't seen as a problem because most of the world was familiar with the same parlance of Clan and Extended Family and understood the broad sense of the word "brethren".

But, now, with the benefits of Divine Revelation, the text of the Scriptures should be changed. If people are going to quote scripture with the intent of casting moral aspersions against Our Lady, then it would be better if it were all to be shovelled into a fire than be suffered to continue to exist as an insult.