Paul over Matthias

Be aware that God-sanctioned divination happened in the Bible a lot -- see the Urim and Thummim.

Seems like if you're led by the Holy Spirit to do so, the ban on divination doesn't apply.

This is not a sanction of divination. Like seriously.
 
Good point, Neirai.

There is an ongoing theological debate about whether they "had" the Holy Spirit or not at this point in history. Did the Holy Spirit still come and go as in the Old Testament? Did the Holy Spirit not "abide" within us until the day of Pentecost? Who's to say for sure? I do know that we do not read about "casting lots" after Pentecost...after the coming of the Holy Spirit.
 
Kahiel said:
I personally don't think that the disciples rushed into the decision. Scripture tells us that they prayed about it. It wasn't important how much time they took, but that they followed the leading of the spirit in making their decision.
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They made the decision without the aid of the Holy Spirit. The Comforter had not come yet.
 
Well, that's a really good question. A really really good question.

I don't even have an opinion yet. I believe that you could divine (again, that word) the Will of God before the Holy Spirit, but Prophets and Kings had special access to the Holy Spirit.

I guess it's really hard for me to comprehend a time "before the Holy Spirit." But the Bible clearly states that the average person -- and certainly the Disciples -- had no indwelling at that time.

I think it's kind of interesting, however, that Saint Dr. Luke tells the story of the appointing of Matthias as part of the story of the coming of the Holy Spirit. This could give credence to the idea that this was a mistake -- or that appointing Matthias was part of the process, seeing as it is part of a time when the Disciples were in unity and constantly praying together.


As an aside, back to earlier discussions about the role of the Disciples vs the Apostles, I find it interesting that Acts 1:22 has Peter saying that Matthias "will join us as a witness of Jesus’ resurrection." It's almost like they didn't choose him to help them run things, but rather to be a prominent eyewitness for skeptics and seekers to consult with.

Remembering that the Gospel writers often say things like "and many of these witnesses are still alive, go talk to them." The Gospel writers knew that what they wrote could be verified. It's almost like Matthias was selected to be one of these go-to guys.
 
Also, one of the "needs" for a twelfth disciple stems from how heavily people of that era, particularly the Jews, were into numbers. Twelve tribes, twelve disciples - couldn't go around with eleven. That just wouldn't be kosher.
 
Probably any number of reasons why they needed to replace the one who fell aside. I think they prayed - God brought scriptures to mind - so they did it in obedience - using the best criteria and means they knew.
 
you know that's y I was pondering this question was at this point the holy spirit was limited bc it hadn't rested on them and in them yet. and the thought came to mind when I'm seeking God on an answer when I pray and fast its still kinda hard to hear him with the holy spirit, so could that have not full understood what God had ment bc technicaly Paul is a witness to the resurrection of Christ(conversion on the road to Damascus). but its just a thought .
 
Wow that is a good question. I wouldn't say that this was "before the Holy Spirit" as the Spirit always has been. In the Old Testament He was only given in spacial circumstances. It was only at the Day of Pentecost (after Matthias' appointment) that He was given to all believers to reside in accordance with Scripture. Now, Scripture also does not say that they Spirit came upon them to make the decision so I think Neirai and Wolfman are right. In my limited research into the urim and thummim, Rabbinical writing says that is was considered one way to discern God's will when a Prophet of God was not present/available. I surmise that the Disciples were following the Rabbinical tradition to discern God's will.
 
yeah man these just so much good questions that's left in the bible, I mean what do u think on the idea of Pangaea do you think the bible supports this and vise versa. oh and kahiel I understand that bout the holy spirit lol, I was just saying at that time it had only rested on the prophets, kings, priests, etc and even what they had was limited until Jesus had completed everything and the Spirit was let loose in its fullness. and thank God for that.
 
Sassamo said:
God chose the original 12, and He chose Paul. The disciples chose Matthias. Just something to consider.
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I'm not sure what you mean. If you want, we can play with our brains a little more. Consider the following:

Technically, God chose Judas Iscariot knowing that he was going to betray Him. Therefore, He knew that there would be 11 and the disciples would choose another. And He also knew who that other (Matthias) was going to be. So did God essentially 'choose' Matthias by choosing Judas?
 
Again, Paul never refers to himself as a disciple. He calls himself an apostle, a servant, a slave for Christ, and all of these titles meant something to the early church -- but never a disciple.

Paul's too careful (and his ministry was always being scoped out by his enemies, who were watching for him to make a wrong move) to screw that up.
 
Neirai the Forgiven said:
Again, Paul never refers to himself as a disciple. He calls himself an apostle, a servant, a slave for Christ, and all of these titles meant something to the early church -- but never a disciple.
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You are absolutely correct - Paul never called himself a disciple. In fact, the word disciple does not occur in the New Testament after the book of Acts.

Neirai the Forgiven said:
Paul's too careful (and his ministry was always being scoped out by his enemies, who were watching for him to make a wrong move) to screw that up.
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I'm not so sure that was his motivation though. I believe he would think of himself as a disciple. Although he does refer to himself as an apostle he says he doesn't deserve to be called an apostle - For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 1 Corinthians 15:9 (NIV) He doesn't call himself a follower either, but I'm sure he would have thought of himself as a follower of Christ.

He calls the original Apostles "super-apostles." But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those "super-apostles." 2 Corinthians 11:5 (NIV) And again in 2 Corinthians 12:11, I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the "super-apostles," even though I am nothing. Notice that even though he is not inferior to them, he is still "nothing."

In the early church the original 12 were referred to as the Twelve. So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, "It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables...The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly...Acts 6:2, 7 (NIV)

They called all who followed Jesus "disciples." It is 2,000 years later that we make such a big deal about the Disciple/disciple distinction.
 
Patriot said:
I'm not sure what you mean. If you want, we can play with our brains a little more. Consider the following:

Technically, God chose Judas Iscariot knowing that he was going to betray Him. Therefore, He knew that there would be 11 and the disciples would choose another. And He also knew who that other (Matthias) was going to be. So did God essentially 'choose' Matthias by choosing Judas?
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Acts 1:2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen,
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Acts 9:6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, "Lord, what do You want me to do?" Then the Lord said to him, "Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."
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Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.
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Yes, there are others listed as disciples and apostles, but unless I'm missing something, none others where 'chosen' by Jesus. Considering your statement, God's foreknowledge of anything/everything does not imply this is what was his desire, or else we could apply this to everything and say that since he knew Adam would sin, he 'chose' for Adam to sin. I don't find this a flow if logic to align with the Bible. Knowing Matthias would have been selected would not overrule his desire for Paul to be the 12th, if this is truly the case, which I tend to think it is.

As far as the guidelines set forth for this selection, those were set forth by Peter, no where else that I know of indicate this was God's intended guidelines.
 
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Sassamo said:
Yes, there are others listed as disciples and apostles, but unless I'm missing something, none others where 'chosen' by Jesus. Considering your statement, God's foreknowledge of anything/everything does not imply this is what was his desire, or else we could apply this to everything and say that since he knew Adam would sin, he 'chose' for Adam to sin. I don't find this a flow if logic to align with the Bible. Knowing Matthias would have been selected would not overrule his desire for Paul to be the 12th, if this is truly the case, which I tend to think it is.

As far as the guidelines set forth for this selection, those were set forth by Peter, no where else that I know of indicate this was God's intended guidelines.
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So then in your opinion do you think you will see Paul sitting on the twelfth throne in heaven and not matthias?
 
Sassamo said:
Yes, there are others listed as disciples and apostles, but unless I'm missing something, none others where 'chosen' by Jesus.
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1 Peter 1:1-2
All of the elect are 'chosen' by God. That includes you and me.


Sassamo said:
Considering your statement, God's foreknowledge of anything/everything does not imply this is what was his desire, or else we could apply this to everything and say that since he knew Adam would sin, he 'chose' for Adam to sin. I don't find this a flow if logic to align with the Bible. Knowing Matthias would have been selected would not overrule his desire for Paul to be the 12th, if this is truly the case, which I tend to think it is.
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Do you think the other 11 just picked Matthias willy-nilly without considering? If it meant so much to be one of the '12' then wouldn't that signify a degree of spiritual maturity the original 11 would possess?

Sassamo said:
As far as the guidelines set forth for this selection, those were set forth by Peter, no where else that I know of indicate this was God's intended guidelines.
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No where do you see that it wasn't. The argument is moot. We don't know what they did back then with regard to the candidates or the entire process. Quite frankly, I'm not sure why it matters. Paul doesn't express concern about it, why should we?
 
Isint there a way to add bible tags to references in these forums? Would help in a discussion like this .
 
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