Need a reference for countering same sex marriage arguments in an MMO

[silverleaf]

Hey folks.

I'm a traditionalist. I'd appreciate a little help in my debate, and countering the "let's put gay marriage in this game" thread that pops up on my MMO forums every few days. Unfortunately, google is filled with pro-gay marriage sites and I can't find any usable sites to base a counter argument. In a public beta testers' forum, I can't really involve religion besides saying "it's contrary to my beliefs and the beliefs of a large proportion of the world", a fact the opposition predictably and conveniently brushed aside.

For starters I don't even know the search terms to use. I'm from South East Asia and am not used to this debate because it doesn't get talked about as much here.
It's just that while I'm getting the "likes" that I need, the rest of the debate isn't going very well. Thought this would be a good place to start looking.
I'm kinda crippled since they've played the 'equality' and 'science says it's normal' card and don't have the references to counter.

The scope of the argument is whether same sex marriage should be allowed in FFXIV. Therefore not everything that works for RL arguments would work here.
Really don't want to just do nothing and let this slide though it seems unlikely the devs would actually implement such a thing.

Please don't get me wrong, I don't hate gay people. I just don't feel gay marriage is right and don't want it in an MMORPG.


Thanks and peace out.
Also, shoutout to all other FFXIV players out there.

 

[SKLURB]

I don't have a reference for you, but personally, I feel marriage, gay or straight, doesn't belong in an MMO where relationships are anonymous and fragmented from actual social interactions that include body language, facial expressions, reactions, and physical presence.

For example: A 14 year old boy could be pretending to be 21 due to the pressures of guilds requiring an 18+ crowd in their ranks, and a 35 year old oversexualized, attention-dependant woman could be pretending to be a 21 year old mate for this person. Online "relationship" follows, complete with online marriage. These two people are headed for disaster, and likely to involve most of their guild in a downward spiral.

Not everyone would be in this position, but time spent with another player online, even for years, is often "yada yada'd" over hidden agendas, mental states, creepiness, ages, financial woes, family and interpersonal problems, etc. I do not feel it is a healthy environment for true romance or in game romance of any kind, and highly inappropriate on various levels. You have two people spending their leisure time escaping reality and spending time together in a fantasy settings away from their real issues and baggage in real life.

I do understand, sometimes players meet up in real life, and sometimes things do work out. I just feel IMO that its a shot in the dark hoping for a bullseye, but yer more likely to cause damage than create true love.

For those reasons I do not believe in game marriages of any kind, homosexual or heterosexual should be a part of the MMO experience.

 

[silverleaf]

I certainly don't believe you should be "marrying" anyone online, but think the feature is mainly there for people who are already married IRL to play together.

Also appears thread deletions all round, so guess I won't need it anymore.

 

[Tek7]

If you're looking for a single point of reference on sexuality and gender roles in Scripture, I strongly recommend reading through and studying the book of 1 Corinthians as well as finding a reliable text on the historical context in which Paul wrote his first letter to the church at Corinth.

 

[Wolfeman]

I believe he said without involving religion.

 

[Odale]

If you're looking for a single point of reference on sexuality and gender roles in Scripture, I strongly recommend reading through and studying the book of 1 Corinthians as well as finding a reliable text on the historical context in which Paul wrote his first letter to the church at Corinth.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

6 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? [SUP]2 [/SUP]Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? [SUP]3 [/SUP]Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! [SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church? [SUP]5 [/SUP]I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? [SUP]6 [/SUP]But instead, one brother takes another to court—and this in front of unbelievers! [SUP]7 [/SUP]The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? [SUP]8 [/SUP]Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men [SUP]10 [/SUP]nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

This is just after a quick Google search, so by no means is it my most thorough research effort. So, this to me, basically says you've all messed up, but you're all saved - everyone - even adulterers, homosexuals, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, and basically everyone else.

I believe he said without involving religion.

If you want to do it sans religion, then you're basically in the realm of logic and science (not trying to say there's no logic in religion). What I suggest you do is read up on what they have to say, find a chink in their and exploit that. Be sure you've done your homework though. People of the internet are ruthless, as you know.

 

[Tek7@Work]

I believe he said without involving religion.

My bad.

Without absolutes (like those clearly stated in Scripture), though, you'll probably have a tough time of it. While I can understand the desire to debate using "logic" only, I anticipate the debate quickly dissolving into relativism and demands for "tolerance" (meaning the modern definition of the word, which is so often meant to strong-arm someone into condoning or agreeing with something with which they do not agree or risk being labeled "hateful" or "intolerant").

This is just after a quick Google search, so by no means is it my most thorough research effort. So, this to me, basically says you've all messed up, but you're all saved - everyone - even adulterers, homosexuals, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, and basically everyone else.

I think it's important to add "former" before the list of sinful titles. As Paul said, "that is what some of you were." Yes, we come to Christ as we are, but if salvation is legitimate, it will have a visible impact on the way we live our lives, whether that change is gradual (as it is in most) or drastic (as in some).

I had 1 Corinthians 11 in mind, though it's important to read a reliable source regarding the historical context of the chapter. It's also vital to consider the passage in light of the balance of Scripture (including gender roles as outlined in Genesis).

The Word makes God's intended roles for the sexes, especially in regards to spiritual authority (such as ordained pastors), abundantly clear, even if those roles set adherents of popular culture writhing in fury. Many with a world view other than that taught in Scripture actually undervalue women (consider the pervasiveness of pornography and the reasons why America is so often referred to as a "rape culture") and ignorantly accuse Christianity of misogyny when in fact women are highly esteemed and valued and play key roles in the redemption narrative that runs throughout Scripture. (See the book of Ruth for just one of many examples. )

Consider when Jesus talked to a Samaritan woman at the well. Christ disregarded social boundaries (it was taboo for Jewish men to talk to women in public at that time; talking to a Samaritan was outrageous) to minister to a woman in need.

Also consider Paul's admonition to husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the church--an intimidating command and one, if obeyed, would not only result in far fewer accusations (or at least legitimate accusations) of sexism in the modern Christian church but also provide a wonderful witness of Christ's enduring love to a nation where 50% of all marriages end in divorce.

So what do gender roles have to do with heterosexuality and homosexuality? Quite a bit, if you think it through.

But the purpose of this thread is discussing same sex marriage apart from Scripture, so I'll let you all get back to it.

 

[Tek7@Work]

I certainly don't believe you should be "marrying" anyone online, but think the feature is mainly there for people who are already married IRL to play together.

Also appears thread deletions all round, so guess I won't need it anymore.

Aaand I just saw this post.

I'll learn to read one of these days. Really.

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

I so want to reply to this thread but I can say goodbye to 1 or 2 days if I do it right. I will say my ideas against gay marriage revolve around logical reasons not unsupported Bible thumping. Everything we are given to do in the Bible comes from what is best for us it is not a bullying old man on a cloud passing out arbitrary rules like the atheists want you to think. There is a plan and purpose for everything and doing something, like sexual acts, outside of that timing is sin which has very real consequences not only after life but during it.

 

[Dimederwin]

I do not have the non-biblical reference, but I will give you a very logical argument. First issue that you need to get past is definitions; too many times people start arguments with different definitions and it very quickly becomes people arguing over different things. Sometimes it is one side having the problem sometimes it is both. You can see this in evolution vs creation, abortion, and many other social issues.

The definition here that you need is what is marriage. The current secular definition is only based on who you love, and nothing to do with sex, since to them marriage is not a requirement to sex. With that definition, what is wrong with marrying multiple people, marrying a brother, mother, father, sister, marrying your pet, or even marrying a rock? Now the last two could be eliminated if it has to be mutual, but the rest are still not acceptable to secular belief even though it is within their definition of marriage. An older definition of marriage was based on family, it is a requirement of one man and one woman in order to have children, and then take care of them. You can look up the studies fairly easily that show kids with one father and one mother that are married are better off.

It is fairly easy to see that the secular definition does not mean anything, because there is no difference in making that commitment and not making it. There is nothing special about that relationship, there in nothing that cannot be done outside of that marriage that you can be done within it. So if it means nothing, then why does it matter? The second definition does matter, it is to keep a family together not just for the two people getting married, but also for the children they bring into this world. In a game though, marriage means nothing, so why have it?

 

[Lloren]

It's hard to argue logically when it's in the realm of an,and I'm assuming, fantasy MMO. It's a "make-up-what-you-want-and-add-it-in" thing. It's not reality and yet there is an agenda from our culture of sin to label everything as gay friendly and gay accepting in no matter what it is. Gay movies. Gay video games. And ... soon... gay hamburgers!! It's a hot topic and I imagine there are people who want to be the "Person who brought gay marriage to ______" because it's a social badge of tolerance and courage (even though it's incorrect).

My only suggestion would be to make a stand and let your wallet do the talking. If you want to engage the culture with the love of Christ by making a stand against gay marriage you can do that. If you want to spend your money elsewhere where it's not promoted... you can do that too. If you want to ask (since it's fantasy) that beastial and plant marriage (man and flowerpot) be allowed in the game it might add for a healthy discussion on the limits and what is "real marriage". Take that boundary line and throw it across the room to get people thinking. Some will, some won't.

Most of all.... Have fun! God is coming back and we have a party to go to.