My Mothers and Brother --

[mrpopdrinker]

Quote[/b] (CCGR @ Nov. 09 2003,10:47)]there is no more need for atonement or pennace, Jesus paid for it already

Leo doesent think so. Infact I question whether or not he believes Yeshua is the Messiah. He would seem to believe more in Mary and this so called saint, Jacinta.

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] (Thaddius @ Nov. 09 2003,7:55)]I would just like to thank you both for sharing all those wonderful passages that contradict each other. It is clear to me that neither of you must have opened a Bible and read it anytime recently.  

Nice attempt at a brief overview though Leo.  Perhaps you should read it as a whole and not just pick out passages that validate your stance.  Maybe then you will understand the teachings.

Cory

Jesus calling for the law to stand & do good works:

Matthew 5

Quote[/b] ]16   Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17   Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18   For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19   Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Paul, seeming to say that the law is no longer needed

Romans 6

Quote[/b] ]14   For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (mrpopdrinker @ Nov. 09 2003,9:49)]

Quote[/b] (CCGR @ Nov. 09 2003,10:47)]there is no more need for atonement or pennace, Jesus paid for it already

Leo doesent think so. Infact I question whether or not he believes Yeshua is the Messiah. He would seem to believe more in Mary and this so called saint, Jacinta.

Dear Pop,

Is it not difficult to believe in "The Mother of God" without believing in God. Mary is defined in relationship to The Christ. You must put aside your hatred and ill will enough so that you can think clearly.

But Yes, you do understand me correctly on the point of the necessity for continued Penance. Christ said we muct pick up out crosses and follow him. The deaths of all the Apostles, but one, by persecutive murder, was a continuation of the Suffering of Christ IN THE BODY OF HIS CHURCH. Then there is the Supernatural instances of Stigmata -- there must be a reason why these hundreds of Saints, some from each generation, are called upon to Suffer.

Your only Doctrinal Support for a lazy dismissal of further Penance comes from Paul, who was more interested in enlarging membership in his churches than scaring people away with the Hard and Painful Truth.

And it is a Hard and Painful Truth. I've been banned from an Atheist Web Page for talking of the necessity for Penance.

Also, Our Lady insists upon Penance. Penance is exacted in 2 ways -- Voluntarily or it is imposed by God in Chastisement. If Sin continues then the religious among us must atone for it, or God must send down punishment upon the responsible Societies. Not individuals. The Avenging Angels don't care who particularly did what. They will strike down their victims more or less at random.

Just look. As belief in Penance has declined, with the rise of Protestantism and Protestant's child Atheism, the Chastisements have gotten worse. The 20th Century was unprecedented in the ferocity of its Wars and Revolutions.

Now, if Christ really had died for all Sin, then, why is there still so much Suffering? If God's Sense of Justice is now so Satisfied, why then does misery still rain down upon us?

But apparently this is in what Faith consists, that no matter what a Protestant sees with his eyes and hears with his ears, if Paul says that it isn't happening, then it isn't happening.

You know, you can believe that All Scripture is Inspired of the Holy Spirit -- in the context that the New Testament is a Test. Christ warns of False Prophets and gives his Criteria. He talks of Tares in the Wheat. Then the Letters of Paul are presented by the Holy Spirit, as a Test, to see if anybody was paying attention when they read the Gospels. Every Protestant fails.

 

[Guest]

Dear Thaddius,

It is a game Protestants have where they all pretend to read their Bible daily. It is a very short book. When I was a child I would circle the Bible once every several months. If you are a Bible reader, then you will KNOW the Bible.

But, when it comes time to discuss the Bible it seems not a single Protestant anywhere is familiar with any passage.

No. I won't play that game. Stop lying about reading the Bible and actually read the Bible and you won't need everyone else to read it to you.

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Quote[/b] ]Christ said we muct pick up out crosses and follow him

Dont missquote scripture. It says cross not crosses. This just meens put your pride aside get out of your comfort zone and go where I say to go and do what I say to do.

Quote[/b] ]Then there is the Supernatural instances of Stigmata -- there must be a reason why these hundreds of Saints, some from each generation, are called upon to Suffer.

You know that I believe stigmata is demonic.

Quote[/b] ]Your only Doctrinal Support for a lazy dismissal of further Penance comes from Paul

And penence comes from where?

Quote[/b] ]or it is imposed by God in Chastisement.

I thought you hated Paul? He came up with this doctrine. Although not of chastisment for penence but for correction.

Quote[/b] ]If Sin continues then the religious among us must atone for it,

This is a doctrine of demons. John 3:16 says this "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotton son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." I dont see any penence or Mary in that scripture. Wait I do see penece in that verse. The penence that Yeshua paid for on the cross to save me from my sins.

Quote[/b] ]Now, if Christ really had died for all Sin, then, why is there still so much Suffering? If God's Sense of Justice is now so Satisfied, why then does misery still rain down upon us?

Freewill God doesnt control everything. Or did you suddenly become a hyper calvinist?

 

[Guest]

Dear Pop,

No, I do not know that you think Stigmata is Demonic. The moment I finish responding to your posts I forget entirely about anything you have said, until next time. I don't take notes on what you believe. Maybe I should, but I am dealing with dozens of people besides you. Some show promise and I pay them more attention.

You can quote pretty snippets from scripture "For God so loved the World..." This was not the full annunciation of a complete Doctrine. For complete doctrines you must look to complete sermons --- Opening statements, explanations, expansions, for instances, and then conclusions. We have such in The Sermon of the Mount.

Your denial of Mary and the Saints of Christ is just a continuation of the Pharisaism that Persecuted and finally murdered Christ. If you had been in Juda, you would have found as much wrong with Jesus then, as you do with the True Church now. None of the prophecies really added up. Jesus was blasphemous. The Law never said this or that and Jesus is wrong about everything. The Revelation and the New Dispensation was right in front of their faces but they found every excuse to be Atheists to it. Well, now you have Every Revelation staring you right in the Face but you are Atheist to it.

Now, see if you can say something that I will respect enough to remember.

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Quote[/b] ]You can quote pretty snippets from scripture "For God so loved the World..." This was not the full annunciation of a complete Doctrine.

Nor is that a full quote. Luke 24:46 says this "He told them. This is what is written: The messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentence and forgivness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, begining at Yerushalayim". It does not say penence will be preached nor his mother. So why cannot one conclude that Yeshua paid the sins of the world using this verse coupled with the numerous verses that Yeshua is the saviour? Here is another one. Mark 16:15-16 "He said to them: Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Now this mentions nothing of penence either and it dident come from Paul.

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (mrpopdrinker @ Nov. 10 2003,6:55)]

Quote[/b] ]You can quote pretty snippets from scripture "For God so loved the World..."  This was not the full annunciation of a complete Doctrine.

Nor is that a full quote. Luke 24:46 says this "He told them. This is what is written: The messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentence and forgivness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, begining at Yerushalayim". It does not say penence will be preached nor his mother. So why cannot one conclude that Yeshua paid the sins of the world using this verse coupled with the numerous verses that Yeshua is the saviour? Here is another one. Mark 16:15-16 "He said to them: Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Now this mentions nothing of penence either and it dident come from Paul.

Protestants have taken the word Penance as it has been found everywhere in the Bible and have changed it to "repentance". Penance means to do painful atonement for sins. "Repentance" means to sit down with a beer and feel sorry that you knocked up a girl and then paid her to murder her unborn baby.

So, if you understand Penance for what it is, then it becomes ridiculous to suppose Christ paid for all Sin, since at his Ascension He commands his Apostles and Disciples to convert the World to a continued Penance. As I said before Christ told us to pick up our crossessss and follow Him.

Regarding the 'whoever believes' section -- read the letters of John. 'Believing' is not just a mental agreement. "Sounds good to me Jesus!" It means that you will do everything you were told. "Sell everything and follow me". "Pick up your crossesssssssss and follow me". If you believe that, you won't just sit on your fat butt and nodd your head yes. But nodding heads is the only things that Protestants tend to 'believe in'.

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Quote[/b] ]Repentance" means to sit down with a beer and feel sorry that you knocked up a girl and then paid her to murder her unborn baby.

To quote brother Adelpit you would to well to get a dictionary. Repentence meens to turn around and stop or go the other way.

Quote[/b] ]So, if you understand Penance for what it is, then it becomes ridiculous to suppose Christ paid for all Sin,

Not really as he was the perfect sacrifice and since we cannot save ourselves. Think about it will you. The Jews dident commit penence but rather sacrifices. In the same token Yeshua was the perfect sacrifice and his blood was strong enough to take on all of the worlds sin. If penence was the key then why dident he have the Jews do it?

Quote[/b] ]Regarding the 'whoever believes' section -- read the letters of John. 'Believing' is not just a mental agreement.

Agreed however if somone converts and then somone goes and kills her right after she accepts Yeshua she will be saved.

 

[Thaddius]

Quote[/b] (Leo Volont @ Nov. 10 2003,2:48)]Dear Thaddius,

It is a game Protestants have where they all pretend to read their Bible daily.  It is a very short book.  When I was a child I would circle the Bible once every several months.  If you are a Bible reader, then you will KNOW the Bible.

But, when it comes time to discuss the Bible it seems not a single Protestant anywhere is familiar with any passage.  

No.  I won't play that game.  Stop lying about reading the Bible and actually read the Bible and you won't need everyone else to read it to you.

LOL,

Hypocracy rears its head!  You are the one who cannot speak from the Bible and speaks in generalizations.  I don't think you have read it in some time.  You piece together thoughts from across the web based loosely on Catholic principles without validating Catholicism.

I KNOW what the Bible teaches.  I KNOW that nowhere in it are the doctrines that you push.

BigJ,

Lets look at the 6th chapter of Romans from the begining.  Romans 6 1-15

Quote[/b] ]1.  What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2.  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3.  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4.  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5.  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6.  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7.  For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8.  Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9.  Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10.  For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11.  Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12.  Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13.  Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14.  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15.  What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

We can also look at Romans 7

Quote[/b] ]1.  Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2.  For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3.  So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4.  Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5.  For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6.  But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7.  What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8.  But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9.  For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10.  And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11.  For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12.  Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13.  Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14.  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15.  For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16.  If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17.  Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18.  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19.  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20.  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21.  I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22.  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23.  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24.  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25.  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Does he claim that the law is abolished?  no, he doesnt.

Does the law still stand?  yes, the law still stands.  Is our salvatin dependant apon the law?  no, if it was then Jesus's death had no purpose.  The law was in place before He came, yet if one law was broken you were guilty of breaking all laws.  Sacrafices were made at the temple for atonement, but Christ was the ultimate sacrifice.  We should still try our best as followers to obey the law, but we will slip, we will stumble, yet through Christ, we know that we are cleansed.  

Why is it so hard to understand that we cannot be saved by the law?


You see Leo, I do read and study my Bible.  Maybe not as much as I should, but I do it.  A liar I am not.

Cory

 

[mrpopdrinker]

One thing that might be relevent to this is Romans 10:4. Now most of our Bibles our atleast the NIV says Christ is the end of the law. However that is a misstranslation to my knowledge due to anti-semitism. In the CJB it says "For the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah."

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (mrpopdrinker @ Nov. 10 2003,2:10)]One thing that might be relevent to this is Romans 10:4. Now most of our Bibles our atleast the NIV says Christ is the end of the law. However that is a misstranslation to my knowledge due to anti-semitism. In the CJB it says "For the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah."

I really do think that the end and goal of all the History of Redemption with the Jewish People in the time of the Patriarchs and Prophets, was fulfilled in the Advent of the Promised One -- the Christ. But Christ indicated that His New Dispensation had no intention of rescending The Law. The Law was to be part of the New Dispensation. In the Sermon of the Mount the importance of Righteousness, even in excess of the Law was underlined. Not a Jot of the Law would disappear He told us.

But did Paul mean this? No. In context of all his other arguments, he meant that Christ's Blood on the Cross would indeed remove the Law, along the lines of the theory that if you do not have laws then nobody would be an 'outlaw'. Such a philosophy would be appealing to a bunch of rich cheating Greek Merchants -- Paul's target audience. Paul stressed Faith to such an extent that where he seems to attack the Law, it simply seems consistent that with the All Importance of the One, you would simply not need the other. At the Council Meeting described in Acts 15 he even makes Peter agree with him that the Law was annoyingly inconvenient, and gets James to write a letter of dispensation, excusing the Gentiles from the Law. They were referring to specific Jewish Laws here, but as what happens with arguments, when you give an inch, the opponent takes a mile. Once the Basic Principle was surrendered, the Entire Law was lost. How could the Jewish Christians again come back and say "This but not That". We can see the results in modern Protestantism where no duty at all is enjoined upon their members. It is like the bumper stickers say : "I am a no good raping thieving liar, but Jesus Forgives me". And they think its funny and laugh.