Murder VS Killing

PapaToad

PapaToad

Active Member
After reading the Draft thread, someone mentioned Gorified Murder. I happen to disagree

There is no glorying murder, Murder is murder. But as a Good friend told me even God kills. Being a 13 year veteran of The US Army I believe in defending my Family, community and Country. But if I had to kill, I would in a heartbeat, My friends, my country men, depending on me. My unit, my troops, killing and dying for me. I would gladly lay my life for my friends and unit I would expect no less from the troops I lead. (that goes for Killing the enemy as well) I also do not hold it against anyone who is not able or feel convicted in the Heart not to kill. I salute you for keeping what God has laid on you. But even David and Samson and others in the bible KILLED and they were chosen by God for great things. Then again David was not allowed to build the temple because he lived by the sword.

It is hard for you out there who never served in the military or experienced what some of us have, and I do not hold that against you. But I was Curious on who thought Killing and murder were the same? I personal do not. But that is me.

I am not saying killing is ok, I am saying, in battle one does what they must, when called on by your country , you do what you can, and follow your LAWFUL ORDERS, not some LT kelly. And a soldiers job, no matter weather in the COOKS, Cavalry, infantry, Armor or aviation is the same, Follow orders and Win battles.

It is not for everyone, I could do it, I did it and loved it until I had to come home due to a hardship. So you who couldn’t or wouldn’t, you could do what you wanted or what you had to. Everyone’s walk in life is different. Not better or worse, just different. I was a soldier and for those out there who served in The US military and had friends in non US military's, you know you pray'd with fervor that you never meet them outside hospitality. Because friendship aside, you are a professional soldier and your mission comes right after GOD, even marines admidt , GOD, Country , Corp in that order.

So rant aside
So the question is  murder and killing the same

I do not think so

I am a God fearing Christian
 
no they are not the same.

murder is slaying someone for personal reasons (jealousy, monetary gains, just don't like them)


killing - is either truly accidental or at the command of the state or in defense of another.
 
Also...you brought up service in the military...

When in the military (or more accurately: under the command of the government) I have been told that God asks us to submit to our leaders of our country and that He would take up the moral decisions and actions made by the government with them. If you are ordered or asked to kill by your leaders on earth, then we may, and God will have his judgement on them.

I have not found this verse myself; I have only been 'told' of it.
 
"They will be held to account each action they took..."

Paraphrased out of the New Living translation.
 
somthing interesting to note is that whn soldiers questioned john the baptist on what thy should do . he told them to be good soldiers and not to extort ppl. But he didnt say. to stop being soldiers.

As I understand the commandment " thou shalt not kill " it is a broad translation . the more specific i have heard is " thou shall do no murder "

I believe that we have the right to defend ourselves and others from random violence. I think it is specific grace for certain times that is given to martyrs to be complete pacifists.
 
This sums it up nicely...



[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The commandment "thou shall not kill" ( Exodus 20:13; Deuteronomy 5:17), is better understood to mean "you shall not murder," most modern translations of the Bible rendered it this way. According to the Bible not all killing, the taking of a life, is murder. Murder is the unlawfully taking of human life. The command not to murder applies to human beings, not to killing animals or plant life for food. God gave animals to mankind for his use ( Genesis 1:26-30; 9:1-4). But, this does not mean that humans have the right mistreat animals and the environment ( Genesis 2:15; Deuteronomy 22:6-7; 25:4; Proverbs 12:10). Under the Old Covenant God allowed the Israelites to kill other humans under very special circumstances such as punishment for certain sins, for example, murder ( Exodus 21:12-14, Leviticus 24:17, 21) and adultery ( Leviticus 20:10, Deuteronomy 22:22-24). God also allowed the Israelites to engage in warfare and even gave them instructions about waging war ( Deuteronomy 20:1-20). God also recognized that humans might accidentally kill each other, and he made provisions for this ( Numbers 35:9-34; Deuteronomy 19:1-13).
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Now the real question is, did God kill or did he murder? God caused the death of an awful lot of people in the OT.

Just a few examples...

GE 6:11-17, 7:11-24 God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and decides to do something about it. He kills every living thing on the face of the earth other than Noah's family and thereby makes himself the greatest mass murderer in history.

GE 19:26 God personally sees to it that Lot's wife is turned to a pillar of salt (for having looked behind her while fleeing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah).

EX 9:22-25 A plague of hail from the Lord strikes down everything in the fields of Egypt both man and beast except in Goshen where the Israelites reside.

EX 12:29 The Lord kills all the first-born in the land of Egypt.

EX 17:13 With the Lord's approval, Joshua mows down Amalek and his people.

EX 21:20-21 With the Lord's approval, a slave may be beaten to death with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't die too quickly.

EX 32:27 "Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.

EX 32:27-29 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay 3000 men.

LE 26:22 "I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children."

LE 26:29, DT 28:53, JE 19:9, EZ 5:8-10 As a punishment, the Lord will cause people to eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters and fathers and friends.

LE 27:29 Human sacrifice is condoned. (Note: An example is given in JG 11:30-39)

NU 11:33 The Lord smites the people with a great plague.

NU 15:32-36 A Sabbath breaker (who had gathered sticks for a fire) is stoned to death at the Lord's command.

NU 16:27-33 The Lord causes the earth to open and swallow up the men and their households (including wives and children) because the men had been rebellious.

NU 16:35 A fire from the Lord consumes 250 men.

NU 16:49 A plague from the Lord kills 14,700 people.

NU 21:6 Fiery serpents, sent by the Lord, kill many Israelites.

NU 25:4 (KJV) "And the Lord said unto Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun ...."

NU 25:9 24,000 people die in a plague from the Lord.

NU 31:17-18 Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children and "... every woman who has known man ...." (Note: How would it be determined which women had known men? One can only speculate.)

NU 31:31-40 32,000 virgins are taken by the Israelites as booty. Thirty-two are set aside (to be sacrificed?) as a tribute for the Lord.

DT 2:33-34 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Sihon.

DT 3:6 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Og.

DT 7:2 The Lord commands the Israelites to "utterly destroy" and shown "no mercy" to those whom he gives them for defeat.

Bah, there's too much more, but you get the point.
 
I don't like murder or killing for any other reason, and I think they're essentially the same thing. The end result is a person who wanted to live, dying. We can justify this; killing someone by accident or in war is more acceptable because we didn't mean to or because it's (supposed to be) for a good reason. But when we're anything less than horrified by it, I think there's a problem.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Bah, there's too much more, but you get the point.
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God condemned everybody to death except for the last generation.

Was it murder, killing, both or neither.

God is the author of all life and is sovereign over that life. It is Gods to give and Gods to take. As a Christian, I accept that I have received the Gift of life from God. Psalm 139 is an excellent passage discussing how God created created every aspect of our lifes before we came to be.

How precious is life to God? Very much so. So much so that God was willing to subject himself to Death to take away its sting once and for all, for all who accept his son as their Lord and Savior.

Also, throughout the OT times, God gave people much time to change their ways and accept his Godhood. And if they did, they were spared from his coming Judgement. Even though God was executing his judgement against very guilty people, God was willing and did show compassion and salvation for those willing to turn away from their wickedness to him.

We see God promising to stay his hand of judgement on Soddom if 10 righteous people were found there. A city of thousands would have been saved on the honesty of 10 people. 10 good or righteous people (even by todays standards) could not be found.

For the sake of arguement, lets use todays standard of rights. We say we have the right to live. Even the guilty are presumed innocent until proven otherwise. Using this world view, it would appear that God slayed or order slain innocent people.

Innocent they were not. We need courts, judges and juries to determine guilt. God does not. Again, Psalm 139 discusses how you can not hide from God. If you can not hide from God, you can not hide your acts from God either. God does not need a jury, or eye witnesses, God watched the guilty do their deeds.

Back to an earlier point, through Adamic sin, we are guilty of rebellion against God and will die for it. Some of us will die in our sleep, others by other means and some have and will by direct intervention of God (finger of God if you will). Nonetheless, make no mistake about it, it is all by Gods will.

The good news is, death has no sting for those who have accepted what he did on the cross for us.
 
i agree that death (period is not cool.) If i had the choice, murder or killing wouldn't be on my agenda. Then again, real life always plays havoc with theological bliss. the reality is there will always be wars, and rumours of wars until Jesus' return.

Personally murder, should never be done.

Killing a human being, is unfortunate, but inevitable. This doesn't excuse it, because in the beginning (the way God created everything) there was no death. Perfect! Since sin came into the world, death came also. Without death, there would be no ressurection, and union with God. Death is a doorway(take that veeeery loosly on a very wide tangent). I guess when Satan seperated man from God, he thought he had marooned us from God forever. So death has no power over us, it will just be around until Jesus returns.

Killing is all through the bible. We don't have the death penalty in australia, but sometimes its the only answer. War. Judgement for a truly heinous criminal ( in some countries). Remember its not the individual in the case of killing that determines that action. A general, the Law (judges) etc. It's done with accountability.

So ultimatelu it's unfortunate, but while the world is in sin, its something that we must live with, but can usually choose our level of participation. whether it's the election of our leadership, or flicking a switch, or safety on a rifle.


food for thought

sealcomm
 
For me im really quiet and dont really think bout all this stuff very often. As for a christian i woul agree with paul: To live is Christ and to die is gain. now as for killing other people i dont think i would ever be capable of actually pulling a trigger yet ive shot tons of people on cs. though if i was ever NEEDED and went through a draft, i would certainly do it and try and get into an aviation program or some other department so i wouldt have to directly kill, yet i would do it if neccessary. i wonder, though and forgive me for devils advocate but, IF God says to submit to a goverment and that inculdes going to war and that means we could kill without holding the title of murderer, then could 9/11 be justified by that?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Atown @ Aug. 22 2004,9:55)]IF God says to submit to a goverment and that inculdes going to war and that means we could kill without holding the title of murderer, then could 9/11 be justified by that?
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Can you be a little more specific here?

Are you asking if the attacks of 9/11 are justified by God?

Or are you asking if our reactions to the attack are justified by God?
 
if the terrorist are justified by God by attacking us
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Drelin @ Aug. 14 2004,9:54)]I don't like murder or killing for any other reason, and I think they're essentially the same thing. The end result is a person who wanted to live, dying. We can justify this; killing someone by accident or in war is more acceptable because we didn't mean to or because it's (supposed to be) for a good reason. But when we're anything less than horrified by it, I think there's a problem.
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Well said.
 
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