Misconceptions about Atheism

[Dark Virtue]

I DO believe the same. I agree with Barker.

 

[Mr.Bill]

Quote[/b] (Rithkil @ Oct. 20 2004,11:35)]You said in another topic that there are two types of athiests. One who doesn't bellieve in a God, and one who believes in no God.

There are many 'kinds' of atheists, but yes, in this way there are two. Of course, the one kind greatly outnumbers the other.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Just as there are many different types of Christians.

 

[LionOfJudah]

well to some we are all infedals and shall die either way, unless we convert

 

[Dark Virtue]

LOL

How does it feel to be an infidel LoJ?

 

[LionOfJudah]

well, not that bad, if i am an infedal to them oh well.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I thought I would share two LOGICAL arguments for Atheism which assume God exists:

ARGUMENT FOR NON-BELIEF
1.) The Christian God wants all men to know he exists so that they can be saved and go to Heaven.
2.) The Christian God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and omnibenevolent.
3.) The Christian God knows what sufficient evidences he can provide to convince all men of his existence.
4.) Not all men are convinced of God's existence.
5.) The Christian God chooses to not provide sufficient evidence to convince all men that he exists.
6.) Therefore, The Christian God wants non-believers to exist.

ARGUMENT FROM JUDGEMENT
1.) If the Christian God exists, he will judge all men one day.
2.) At judgement, atheists will learn the truth, that there is a God.
3.) It follows then that God has the power to reveal himself to atheists in a manner of which they cannot deny his existence.
4.) It follows from that, that God hasn't revealed himself to current atheists in a manner of which they cannot deny his existence, yet.
5.) Atheism is a tenable position.

 

[Genesis1315]

Did you create these arguments?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Nope.

They can be found at www.infidelguy.com.

 

[Rithkil]

Infidel...hmmm....LOL

 

[Genesis1315]

Whew, glad to hear it since the first argument is not true. The last two statements are false, negating the whole argument.

 

[Mr.Bill]

Hmm, they are Genesis? It seems perfectly logical to me. What do you have problems with?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Would you mind pasting them here...just so there is no misunderstanding.

And, of course, your reasons why they are invalid.

 

[Genesis1315]

Quote[/b] ]ARGUMENT FOR NON-BELIEF
1.) The Christian God wants all men to know he exists so that they can be saved and go to Heaven.

mmmm sort of, this is really watered down and missing the part of believing as well as knowing.

Quote[/b] ]
2.) The Christian God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and omnibenevolent.

ok

Quote[/b] ]
3.) The Christian God knows what sufficient evidences he can provide to convince all men of his existence.

True

Quote[/b] ]
4.) Not all men are convinced of God's existence.

True

Quote[/b] ]
5.) The Christian God chooses to not provide sufficient evidence to convince all men that he exists.

Not true. He does provide evidence to many that He does exist. The problem is with the word all. Also, the Christian God has given man free choice, thereby, men can choose to not follow the Christian God even if they know He exists.

Quote[/b] ]
6.) Therefore, The Christian God wants non-believers to exist.

Not true. The Christian God has stated that he wants everyone to believe in Him

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Since one part of the argument is false, or in this case two, then the whole argument is false.

<EDIT and Off Topic> DV, I like your new avatar

 

[Dark Virtue]

If we're going to be specific, 6 is actually the statement, therefore only 5. is an incorrect argument...according to you.

Let's take a look at it:

"5.) The Christian God chooses to not provide sufficient evidence to convince all men that he exists."

If God doesn't provide sufficient evidence for everyone, then He can't convince ALL men. In other words, ALL MEN haven't been given sufficient evidence to believe He exists.

I'm living proof of that, as are the majority of atheists.

You said, "Also, the Christian God has given man free choice, thereby, men can choose to not follow the Christian God even if they know He exists."

While a good point, it puts no bearing on this argument, since the assertation is that certain people don't have sufficient evidence to believe. It's not referring to denial. (which is a large river in Egypt...sorry, couldn't resist)

Therefore, I assert argument #5 IS valid, thus, the statement can be considered true, in regards to the arguments.

(And I thank you regarding my avatar...I did it myself)

 

[Genesis1315]

# 5 is an opinion, not fact. Just because someone claims that the Christian God has not given enough evidence, that does not mean that He has not. The evidence is there for us to accept. Perhaps man has chosen to ignore it, or try to reason it away into something else. Either way, the statement is not true

 

[Dark Virtue]

Well what evidence have I been ignoring or just plain not seen?

 

[Mr.Bill]

Quote[/b] (Genesis1315 @ Oct. 22 2004,8:42)]# 5 is an opinion, not fact.  Just because someone claims that the Christian God has not given enough evidence, that does not mean that He has not.  The evidence is there for us to accept. Perhaps man has chosen to ignore it, or try to reason it away into something else.  Either way, the statement is not true

But if he is omniscient and all powerful, then why does he not make it more clear? It is a terribly obvious fact that the topic of religion is nebulous, as is evidenced by the hundreds of different faiths and belief systems, and by the thousands of non-believers. If he wants us all to believe, then why not show us the way more directly? Perhaps his ways are too mysterious? This arguement takes this into account, and concludes that god does, in fact, want non-believers to be here. Otherwise he would make them believe with more evidence. As is, there clearly is not enough.

 

[Genesis1315]

Sorry for not explaining in clearly. I will give it one more shot tonight.

Quote[/b] ]The Christian God chooses to not provide sufficient evidence to convince all men that he exists.

1. The Christian God wants all to come to Him. So, if He wants everyone to come to Him, He would provide evidence that would allow all to come.

2. "All Men" is not true since He has already provided evidence to many.


According to the Christian God, we all have free will and can make decisions on our own, regardless of the evidence that He provides.

 

[Mr.Bill]

But 'all men' means just what it says: all men, as in every single one. He has provided evidence for many perhaps, but that is irrelevent in this arguement. As for the free will thing...I fail to see how we can have free will if god is both omnipotent and omnicient. if he created us, and knows absolutely everything, then he knows what decision we will make given a certain set of circumstances, and so we can conclude that he designed us to be that way. Otherwise how did we end up that way, if he is the creator?