magic and false gods

[Whitestone]

Eon why are you soo agitated by this post?

As for Catholics and Christians being different, people that call themselves Christians are not Catholic, and from personal experience not all Catholics are Christians.

I am very sorry to hear about the large number of people that have turned away from God in Europe.

As to Egypt's great power, God said that He made Egypt such a great nation so that God's miracles would be known. No other powers made Egypt great.

Whitestone

 

[Drelin]

Quote[/b] ]No, Rome was the only arbitor of the church in Rome. There were christians all over the world, and there were genuine christians even in Rome who had to meet in seceret in fear the the Roman Church from calling them heretics. Sure Rome might have been the biggest organization to call themselves christian, however when you don't let your followers read the book they are suppose to live thier life by, and make up rules, I tend to see that as more of a cult... Rome was not the only arbitor.

You're saying that that the Catholic Church's influence was negligible outside of Vatican City? Do you have any grasp of history? I'm glad you're catching on with the the cult thing though. But how does the modern church diverge from your definition of a cult? The Bible is public, but it's still defined and interpreted by the church and then spoonfed to congregations. Of rules? Doctrine is no less a part of the church than it ever was...

Quote[/b] ]Like I said, they were the only church in Rome, not the world, and even in Rome some christians had to meet in seceret. They weren't even corrupted until they became pollitically powerful, and then they were terrible.

You're not answering his question. The Catholic Church's influence was (and to a lesser extent still is) incredible and widespread. Sure, there may have been small splinter groups and heritics. Surely you don't suggest that they alone repelled the entire Catholic Church's distorting influnce for 1500 years until Luther came along and miraculously changed everything back to the exact way God wanted it (as you seem to think).

Quote[/b] ]As for Catholics and Christians being different, people that call themselves Christians are not Catholic, and from personal experience not all Catholics are Christians

We're talking historically - pre reformation. Being a Christian was being Catholic. There wasn't a distinction; the Catholic Church was it. Well, either that or you were a heretic - rather unpopular folk.

Quote[/b] ]As to Egypt's great power, God said that He made Egypt such a great nation so that God's miracles would be known.  No other powers made Egypt great.

Ah, so God made Egypt so that he could tear it down? A fair and elegant system for all parties involved. Wait! You almost had me convinced there, until then I considered the implication: the Israelites wouldn't have been slaves to the Egyptians if God hadn't made Egypt a great nation in the first place - which he did for the purpose of bringing down calamity upon it in order to showcase his ability at killing people and make his chosen people love him more. Do I have it right now?

 

[Eon]

Not to mention the fact that it wasn't even the Egyptian's that conquered Judea and destroyed Jerusalem! It was the Babylonians, under King Nebuchadnezzar who sacked Jerusalem repeatedly because the Judeans wouldn't roll over and play nice. Finally he destroyed the country, laid waste to the centre of Yahweh's worship and drove 10,000 of the nobilty and priesthood into exile. Many of the Judeans ran away to Egypt rather than face life as slaves in Judea and, well, promptly became a slave race in Egypt to.

Funnily enough, when it came around to Yahweh setting things straight after this much needed chastisement of his special people (ahem), he saved all his miracles for second rate power Egypt, whilst more powerful Babylon was destroyed by the Medians and Persians (Pagans no less).

I could point out all the questions this begs, but really we were done conversing as equal students in history the minute you claimed that the extent of the Vaticans rule before 1500 was Rome...

 

[LionOfJudah]

you guys are going way to far ahead.... most of the events that i discuss in the paper are pre-isreal.... nice try in warping the context though

 

[Mr.Bill]

Quote[/b] (LionOfJudah @ April 14 2004,1:58)]you guys are going way to far ahead.... most of the events that i discuss in the paper are pre-isreal.... nice try in warping the context though

Now now...lets not be cynical...

 

[Master~Plan]

Quote[/b] ]You're saying that that the Catholic Church's influence was negligible outside of Vatican City? Do you have any grasp of history?

Quote[/b] ]but really we were done conversing as equal students in history the minute you claimed that the extent of the Vaticans rule before 1500 was Rome...

I posted early this morning and I couldn't remember the word "Vatican". A million apologies... My point wasn't that the WHOLE CATHOLIC church's influence was contained in Rome. I meant the the corrupted catholic churches were in Rome. There is a big distinction between the two; one being christian, the other not. The Bible also has accounts of Jews accepting Christ, and forming thier own churches...not ALL catholic churches were corrupted from 0-1500. I guess the thing is you guys use Catholics in general and Roman catholics as the same group...

Quote[/b] ]...WERE Christianity for about 1500 years, I've already covered. I find it difficult to believe that you could have a millenium and a half of distortion and suddenly return to the undistorted truth.

no it wasn't distorted. The Bible was not changed after cannonization

Quote[/b] ]We're talking historically - pre reformation. Being a Christian was being Catholic. There wasn't a distinction; the Catholic Church was it. Well, either that or you were a heretic - rather unpopular folk.

Maybe there wasn't a distinction to the catholic church, but to the christians there was... A christian is a follower of Christ who goes to heaven.

I'm sorry I don't always have koshur terminology, and our definitions of groups don't always match. So fine, don't waste your time on an "unequal student"...

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Quote[/b] ]no it wasn't distorted. The Bible was not changed after cannonization

I must admit that I havent studied history in awhile.  However I am pretty sure that the Bible dident exist untill canonization.

Quote[/b] ]old rules don't change its historical acuracy, and the whole old testament, isn't just made up of Jewish law. Thats only one book bro.

If you think the Tanakh or old testament as you call it is just one book then I suggest you go pick up a Bible or a Tanakh.

Quote[/b] ]God said he is the only true God. so, if there are more than one correct God that would make God a liar, making him imperfect, making him not God at all. So that rules out the possibility of there being more than one 'correct' god...

Have you considered the possibility that God or Gods dont have to be perfect?  

Quote[/b] ]God did care if you eat pork, work on saturday, and how much you trusted him financially.

Quote[/b] ]and the old law was never abolished.

So you say God no longer cares about Torah and now you say he does? Sounds like an oxymoron to me. Oh and masterplan change your text color please. I dont care how well it matches the eyes of your cartoon it is very irritating.

 

[Master~Plan]

Quote[/b] ]I must admit that I havent studied history in awhile.  However I am pretty sure that the Bible dident exist untill canonization.

no, it didn't exist prior cannonization. Sorry if it looks like I implied other wise...

Quote[/b] ]If you think the Tanakh or old testament as you call it is just one book then I suggest you go pick up a Bible or a Tanakh.

*sigh* no, I never said the Tanakh was one book. I said the whole old testament wasn't only Jewish law. The Jewish law is in mostly Leviticus, which is one book out of the old testament...

Quote[/b] ]Have you considered the possibility that God or Gods dont have to be perfect?

no

Quote[/b] ]So you say God no longer cares about Torah and now you say he does? Sounds like an oxymoron to me.

No, I said the rules were to show that we could not be perfect.

Quote[/b] ]Oh and masterplan change your text color please. I dont care how well it matches the eyes of your cartoon it is very irritating.

Yeah, its on my to do list

I guess I'm not clear when I post, or maybe its my annoying text color hehe. Sorry guys...

 

[Master~Plan]

hmm hows this color?

 

[Drelin]

Quote[/b] ]no it wasn't distorted. The Bible was not changed after cannonization

Who cannonized it? When, why, on what basis?

edit: that colour is worse. Go with default, please?

 

[Drelin]

And;

Quote[/b] ]No, I said the rules were to show that we could not be perfect.

Any direct rule or command in the Bible is now not something to be followed, but rather God's way of telling us that we're not perfect?

no

Have you considered the possibility that our interpretation of God and some of the writings we attribute to him a flawed?

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Quote[/b] ]No, I said the rules were to show that we could not be perfect.

Yet in Deuteronomy 30:11-14 it says we can be? Hmmmm.

 

[LionOfJudah]

pop look at the context and dont just try to pick and choose what you want to think is right, and what is.

Moses was telling the Isrealites. AFTER the 40 years of being in the desert, that they did not have to endure this anylonger. He was telling them to keep their minds and hearts on God and His laws, and then God will bless them. (It was always a If you do this/ THen I WILL do this.)

IT never once states that we can be perfect. Moses is telling the people that it is not hard. They do not have to seek the world over for it. What they need should be in their hearts and mouths (minds).

 

[Drelin]

Quote[/b] ] I meant the the corrupted catholic churches were in Rome.

I really don't understand what you're trying to say. You're refering to Rome the city, yes? What the church in Rome said essentially became law in Europe. As the decision making centre, perhaps Rome was a large source of courruption, but to say that these corrupt and false doctrines were universally rejected outside of Rome is to misunderstand the nature of the Catholic Church.

And I have a bunch of other questions I posted that I would appreciate being answered at your leisure.

 

[Eon]

Never mind the law in Europe, the Catholic church divided the whole world between Spain and Portugal.

Quote[/b] ]The sanction, which by the terms of the Treaty was to be asked, was never given by Alexander VI and not before the 24th of January, 1506, was a Bull to such effect issued by Pope Julius II. Although much disputed and very differently interpreted, this Treaty remained in force until January 13, 1750, when the Treaty of Madrid annulled the boundary line. It would seem, however, that this boundary line, first provided for in the second Bull "Inter caetera" and later corrected in the Treaty of Tordesillas, decided what parts of the western hemisphere as well as which regions of the eastern hemisphere were discovered, possessed and civilized by Spain and by Portugal respectively, and which still speak the language and show the influence of the culture of their first discoverers.

Eon

 

[Master~Plan]

Quote[/b] ]Who cannonized it? When, why, on what basis?

I haven't formally studied the cannonization process, but here is what I know. I'm going to study it after I finish some matirial Ive been working on with another subject. So, keep in mind there are probably a lot of details I left out. There used to only be the Tanakh(old testament). After Jesus death and ressurection, Christian gospel was handed down by word of mouth. There were writtings of Paul to Churches, and a handfull of desciples documented Jesus' biography, but no one had a 'Bible'. The Catholic church(uncorrupted...) got a council together to form the gospel. (new testament) Don't be fooled by the word 'form', they never made anything up or wrote any of thier own matirial. They collected tons of writtings that had anything to do with christianity, or Jesus. Then they made a set of guidlines of what could make cannonization or not. The writtings had to be authored within a certain time of Jesus resurrection and lots of other rules. Every scripture got looked at with amazing scrutiny. They filtered through the documents and compiled them into what we now have as the new testament. The new testament was not written by any one man, but rather a compile of different reliable historical accounts of what happened from different people.

Quote[/b] ]Any direct rule or command in the Bible is now not something to be followed, but rather God's way of telling us that we're not perfect?

Oh no, not at all. God's commands are to be kept. Us being imperfect all chose at some point to disobey God. So, He sent Jesus as a sacrifice for all of our imperfection. We no longer need to sacrifice animals because of Jesus. We no longer need to make a temple with a holy of holies, and have an ark of a covenant, because Jesus is the new covenant, and he lives in us, not some sacred room. The ten commandments should still be kept, along with God's other teachings.

Quote[/b] ]Have you considered the possibility that our interpretation of God and some of the writings we attribute to him a flawed?

oh yeah, there are many people who attribute tons of writtings to God that are flawed. It doesn't mean they are indeed from God...

Quote[/b] ]What the church in Rome said essentially became law in Europe. As the decision making centre, perhaps Rome was a large source of courruption, but to say that these corrupt and false doctrines were universally rejected outside of Rome is to misunderstand the nature of the Catholic Church.

The other churches ,outside of Rome, rejecting all of the Roman church's practices is one universal extreeme. Are you going to argue the other extreem of every other church quickly and blindly putting into practice everything the Roman church did?

Quote[/b] ]And I have a bunch of other questions I posted that I would appreciate being answered at your leisure.

just yell out if I missed one...

 

[Eon]

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]What the church in Rome said essentially became law in Europe. As the decision making centre, perhaps Rome was a large source of courruption, but to say that these corrupt and false doctrines were universally rejected outside of Rome is to misunderstand the nature of the Catholic Church.

The other churches ,outside of Rome, rejecting all of the Roman church's practices is one universal extreeme. Are you going to argue the other extreem of every other church quickly and blindly putting into practice everything the Roman church did?

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition...

Or should that be everybody who questions the Catholic church or practices heresy and isn't backed by a fairly powerful nationstate (like England) fully expects the Pope to appoint a duly recognised and empowered Inquisition to stamp out the heresy wherever it's found, or imagined to be found, using any means, up to and including military force, torture and genocide.

Believe me, if there were heretics (and there were) then they were either bloody quiet, bloody careful or else just bloody dead. And they certainly weren't widespread. There was nowhere in the world that was out of the reach of the Vicar of Rome.

 

[Drelin]

Quote[/b] ]They collected tons of writtings that had anything to do with christianity, or Jesus.

Hey - we're agreed. But how did these writings go from being accounts of Jesus' life and times, letters to early churches, etc to being the inerrant word of God?

Quote[/b] ]Oh no, not at all. God's commands are to be kept.

Quote[/b] ]The ten commandments should still be kept, along with God's other teachings.

Does that mean you refuse to eat lobster and bacon?

Quote[/b] ]oh yeah, there are many people who attribute tons of writtings to God that are flawed. It doesn't mean they are indeed from God...

Have you considered the possibility that the New Testemant is one such collection of writings?

Quote[/b] ]Are you going to argue the other extreem of every other church quickly and blindly putting into practice everything the Roman church did?

Yeah, why not? What were these other churches you keep refering to? To my knowledge, anyone who diverged from the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church was considered a heretic and under nearly all circumstances persued as Eon describes, although he did forgot to mention The Comfy Chair.

 

[Eon]

Cardinal Biggles, TURN THE RACK...

 

[Master~Plan]

Quote[/b] ]Hey - we're agreed. But how did these writings go from being accounts of Jesus' life and times, letters to early churches, etc to being the inerrant word of God?

Because Jesus is God, and the Bible contains his exact quotes...

Quote[/b] ]Does that mean you refuse to eat lobster and bacon?

God said in the new testament you can eat what was before the 'unclean' animals.

Quote[/b] ]Have you considered the possibility that the New Testemant is one such collection of writings?

I will admit, there are a lot of look alikes, however I have found the new testament to be an accurate account of history. Multiple people recorded the life of Jesus, and their stories match. However they don't match exactly as to be called plagarism. 4 people with unique writting styles, and personalities, who each cover Jesus life from a different angle. If any of what was written about Jesus' life was false, the Jews would have happily pointed out the fallacy. So it doesn't really take faith to know that Jesus did miracles, rose from the dead, or even existed. I does take faith to believe he was indeed God like he said he was.

Quote[/b] ]Yeah, why not? What were these other churches you keep refering to? To my knowledge, anyone who diverged from the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church was considered a heretic and under nearly all circumstances persued as Eon describes

The other curhces I am talking about are the catholic churches that are not in Rome. I don't think all of the Catholic Churches were corrupt. And like I said there was an account of Jews accepting Christ and starting a church. So you want to say all of the catholic churches in the whole world were corrupted?

Quote[/b] ]although he did forgot to mention The Comfy Chair.

Quote[/b] ]Cardinal Biggles, TURN THE RACK...

heh, you guys lost me