Lucifer - when did he fall?

C

Chaoswraith

New Member
In my study time, I'm stumbled upon a question that I have no idea of, and haven't been able to turn up much in my study tools. When did Lucifer fall? In Isaiah, it says that the "star of the morning" was banished to earth, so that means the earth was already formed then, right? Did Lucifer and the third of the angels that are spoken of in Revelation fall sometime in between the creation and fall of mankind when Satan tempted Eve in the form of a snake?

Why isn't this discussed in any greater detail in the canon? Are there texts that were excluded from the scriptures that may shed some more light on this? In the protestant canon the origin of Lucifer is only mentioned in a few scant verses in Isaiah, and very briefly mentioned in Revelation.

Thanks, everyone!
 
My guess would be pre-eden. After all, Lucifer/Satan was there to tempt Adam and Eve. We know very little if anything about God's kingdom before the creation of the garden of eden. I'm not sure, but if you look at Genesis 1, it says the Earth was without form and God hovered over the face of the deep? (I'll have to look that up.) But chances are, Earth was there before Eden, but wasn't as we know it today. So sometime then, after Earth was created, before Genesis 1 was the fall of Lucifer.

Tis only a guess. I'll do research on it.
 
That is true.  But if you read Genesis 1:1-2

NIV "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

Amplified "IN THE beginning God (prepared, formed, fashioned, and) created the heavens and the earth.
The earth was without form and an empty waste, and darkness was upon the face of the very great deep. The Spirit of God was moving (hovering, brooding) over the face of the waters."

Literal "   In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth --
the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness [is] on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,"



So what I'm suggesting as a possibility is that in the beginning, probably the start of this universe "God created the heavens and the Earth." and then did other things.  Then the beginning of our created started when "Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters" and begun with the creation of light followed by all the other earthly creations.  After all, you really can't calculate a day very well without a sun.


That is just a hypothesis for you to all speculate and debate on.  But we don't know when angels came into existance or when Lucifer fell.  We know that he was there during the time of Adam and Eve.  And we know that when he fell, wasn't he cast upon the face of the earth?


Here is a secondary hypothesis:

The universe and the earth was created on day one of the six day creation of everything.  The bible doesn't say how long adam and eve lived in the garden and tended it.  So it could also be possible that during that time period, Satan became jealous of God's love for humans and rebelled against him.  Then when Satan was cast upon the earth, he sought to corrupt mankind.


Just a few thoughts.


*edit*


Hmm.  After rereading and proofreading my post, and after reading the Literal translation, I'm starting to believe the second hypothesis is probably more viable.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Malohaut @ Feb. 18 2004,8:01)]The bible doesn't say how long adam and eve lived in the garden and tended it. So it could also be possible that during that time period, Satan became jealous of God's love for humans and rebelled against him. Then when Satan was cast upon the earth, he sought to corrupt mankind.
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If you follow the hypothesis that the serpent was Satan, then yes, this would be more viable. I'm not saying the serpent wasn't Satan; but reading the Bible accurately includes not putting stuff in there that isn't in there. Nowhere does it actually say that the serpent is Satan. In most of ancient Near-East writing (including the Enuma Elish and the Epic of Gilgamesh), the serpent is seen as a deciever, wise, crafty, etc. In a "more" literal translation, I guess you could say, of the Pentateuch (The Five Books of Moses by Everett Fox - a superb rendition of the ancient Hebrew), it is more clearly pointed at that the serpent could not have been Satan; for in 3:1, the author says: "Now the snake was more shrewd than all the living-things of the field that YHWH, God, had made." This opens the possibility to animal thought, etc.; but if the writer himself does not infer this being as Satan then it is almost fallible for us to do the same. I've written a paper on the fall narrative if you're interested, with a nice bibliography.

Now, I guess, back to the topic. We don't have a decent time-frame for the fall of the angels. Really the huge majority of what we know of angels at all (or at least, what is purported to be known) is contained in remnants of Jewish apocrypha (Apoc. of Abraham, Melchizedek fragment from cave 11 at Qumran, etc.), Jewish Midrash, and Jewish merkabah mysticism (which Paul is most likely contending in Colossians 2; elevation of the angel Metatron, etc.).

All very interesting stuff nonetheless.
 
... where the heck did i read about the fall of satan... i remember reading it somewhere... *checks Bible seeker* .... cant find anything.... argh i know i read it somewhere... does someone have a pilgrims progress somewhere?? it might be there, or was it another library book i read... dangit srry i aint much help.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]...In Isaiah, it says that the "star of the morning" was banished to earth...
Click to expand...
In revelation 22 it says Jesus is the bright Morning Star, I didn't know that term was used somewhere else. where in the Bible does it talk about the fall of satan?
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I've written a paper on the fall narrative if you're interested, with a nice bibliography.
Click to expand...
I would love to read your paper, that sounds interesting.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]. . . if the writer himself does not infer this being as Satan then it is almost fallible for us to do the same.
Click to expand...

Oh my gosh! I've never heard that theory before. Those of us who grew up in Christian homes were always told by our Sunday school teachers and such that the serpant was Satan himself, in the form of a serpent. When you go back and read Genesis 3 though, you are indeed correct. It is never stated that the serpent is Satan. How, then, would the serpent talk? Did God really make animal consiousness like then?

And then, what about Revelation 12:9?

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. - KJV

He is called the old serpent here, perhaps in reference to his act in Genesis?
 
Masterplan:

The account of Satan's banishment that I was referring to is in Isaiah 14.

Isaiah 14:12-15

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Tasty:
I also would love to read the paper.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Chaoswraith @ Feb. 18 2004,11:13)]He is called the old serpent here, perhaps in reference to his act in Genesis?
Click to expand...
You know, I don't really have an explanation for that. The Greek's kinda tricky so I can't nail it down exactly...but it does indeed seem to be implying that Satan came down as a serpent. There's a lot I guess I could propose that could reconcile this...for instance, that John was interpreting the great dragon to be Satan...or that John already assumed that the serpent in Genesis was Satan, so that affected his vision.

But, honestly, I really don't know how to deal with that. I try to make it policy not to mess with apocalyptic visions...lol.

Master~Plan, if you'll PM me your e-mail addy I can get my paper to you.
 
There was no deception and sin in the world except for Satan and the Demons, so it had to be Satan. There also isn't really a time when Lucifer fell, because there wasn't a calendar then.
 
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