John 3:16

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]
And appaerntly its not hooey Dear DV, christain believe the blood of Christ cleans them of thier sin

Too many misunderstandings

Yes, the blood of Christ wiped away sins...but it was SYMBOLLIC. The blood itself wasn't magic or imbued with any supernatural properties. The blood had nothing to do with it, it was his death that was meaningful.

I just find it strange that a God that professes love wanted man to sacrifice his own creation to him. Why is the taking of a life essential to God's plan?

I know you don't have an answer to that, but it is troubling to say the least. Why should this omnipotent being require blood to satiate him?

 

[PapaToad]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Nov. 02 2004,11:54)]

Quote[/b] (MontrezAnthony @ Nov. 02 2004,11:42)]*****If you follow that logic, then you would have to agree that eating a person's brain imbues you with their power and intelligence, as certain cannibilistic tribes believe.*******


How do you know it doesn't??

Are you honestly, seriously suggesting that it's POSSIBLE?

No I would hope not. what I am getting at is there are things Logic and science can not explain or test to prove or disprove.

There will be things I do not believe we will ever find the answers to. Its a crazy world, and I know the lest about it

Its just my opinoin

 

[Dark Virtue]

I agree that there are things that, at this time, science cannot answer, prove or disprove.

HOWEVER, I disagree that science cannot test all things.

 

[Marcylene]

He is God. I cannot bring myself to have one hard feeling towards Him. I trust that He knows best. I am not condemning you because you do, please believe that. I know the answers are in the Word.

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Leviticus 17:11

Remember that Abel's blood cried out? Maybe this is the only way that my flesh could be reborn as Spirit. Perhaps the sacrifice is akin to the law of gravity! I know the Old Testament sacrifices were a picture of Jesus to come. In essence, they were believeing in Jesus before He arrived. Some has beautiful symbolism. The fat was used for a sin offering, I think incense was a picture of praise. I do not know, I have much to understand about God. He knew that He would have to come to earth, leave His Heavenly throne to pay for my sins. Maybe He did it because He knew I wanted to be created, experience life and all that it entails, have the choice to serve Him and live forever with Him in my Heavenly Home. He is not the horrible deity that you are trying to make Him appear. He has His reasons....more studying for me!

The 1/10? It caught my attention and I just thought it was interesting! Coud it mean firstfruit...the Ultimate Sacrifice! It spoke to my heart.

I can't fully comprehend all that the sacrifice may mean. I just know what He requires of me today.

He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8

 

[PapaToad]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Nov. 02 2004,1:40)]I agree that there are things that, at this time, science cannot answer, prove or disprove.

HOWEVER, I disagree that science cannot test all things.

Thats why science cracked the Bumble Bee flight mystery?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]Remember that Abel's blood cried out?

Are you suggesting that his blood actually CRIED OUT?

I always took that to be allegory.

Blood is an inanimate object outside the body. It isn't magical. It has no properties. I'm sure people thought of it differently in the past, but we know them to be wrong now, don't we?

This whole blood and sacrifice thing is another stumbling block of mine. It lowers God to the level of any number of other bloodthirsty gods that demanded tribute. Wasn't that what Abel was doing anyway? Paying tribute to his God? Appeasing Him so as not to invoke His wrath? Cain, obviously, didn't appease Him and brought wrath down upon his head.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (MontrezAnthony @ Nov. 02 2004,1:45)]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Nov. 02 2004,1:40)]I agree that there are things that, at this time, science cannot answer, prove or disprove.

HOWEVER, I disagree that science cannot test all things.

Thats why science cracked the Bumble Bee flight mystery?

Eh?

 

[PapaToad]

It is impossible by what we understand of flight for the Bumble bee too fly yet it does. I thought it was a neat "freaky" thing

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (MontrezAnthony @ Nov. 02 2004,2:06)]It is impossible by what we understand of flight for the Bumble bee too fly yet it does. I thought it was a neat "freaky" thing

Ah

Like I said, there are many things that science can't explain.

BUT, as I also mentioned, we can observe bees and observe their flight.

We cannot observe your God.

Does that mean He doesn't exist? Of course not.

But that doesn't help to prove He DOES exist either.

 

[LionOfJudah]

the death and blood was and always has been an illistration for man to understand. what would have more of an effect for you D.V. as a father i am sure you have encoutered some "fun" situtations.

Like telling your son/daughter not to touch something because it is hot.

What has more effect for them, being told its hot, or you showing them its hot by maybe putting a piece of paper on it (and it lighting up) or cooking on it.

Then again if you could fathom why God chooses to do what He does, why would you need to have faith in Him to do what He says He will do.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I love that analogy BTW. Let me show you why...

The difference is that God is omnipotent. God created the stove, He created the flame, He created the child. Then He lit the stove and set the child directly in front of it and said DON'T TOUCH. Any parent knows that as soon as you say that, the first thing the kid wants to do is TOUCH IT. There's no way to get around the situation in my kitchen. God, in his omnimax glory, could have figured a better way around the problem. In fact, He CREATED the problem in the first place.

 

[MisfiT]

DV, you read my post and then responded that I avoided the majority of the questions.  In fact, what I did was offer an explanation for one of the primary questions asked.  You asked why Christ had to die, and I gave one explanation that makes sense to me.  Gimme some feedback on that.

The point is not whether God rejoices in the smell of burning flesh, whether the blood 'washes away' anything, or whether the whole bit is simply one way of telling a story.  Don't get so caught up in the details that you miss the point.  And from reading many of your posts it does seem like you just want to hook onto some detail and then keep going in circles supposedly 'looking for answers'.  Don't get so caught up in the terms that you miss the point.

It is evident that you misunderstand the concept of 'free will' when you write such as 'If this planet is sick and trashy it's GOD'S fault".  This is an old argument, and there are many books available for further research.  God created us, so if we are evil then it is His fault, blah, blah, blah.

Briefly, I look at it this way.  If I put a gun to your head and say, "Say my name or you die", then you have a real choice.  To say my name, or else to not say my name.  Sure, one option has some rather drastic negative consequences, but that doesn't negate the choice.  Think about it.  You have complete free will to make the choice.

 

[Dark Virtue]

You're taking the "sick and trashy" comment out of context. That was a direct response to Byblos' rantings. Those terms were of his choosing not mine.

I think I understand Free Will better than you think you do.

Free Will means what? The ability to choose and make our own decisions, right? What good is Free Will if we don't have choices to make?

Let's look at your analogy...you claim that saying your name or dying is a CHOICE. While technically correct, you are missing the details...something you claim I dwell on.

What does it mean to choose? Choosing means to select FREELY and after consideration. Can you do that with a gun to your head? What about with the threat of eternal damnation hanging over you? You may also want to look up the defintion for DURESS.

I CHOICE means having a SUFFICIENT number and variety to choose among. The "choices" that we have been talking about do not contain a sufficient number to choose from. We have one good and one bad. Sounds picky? Look at the next definition and you'll see why.

I propose that God offered us not a CHOICE, but an ULTIMATUM. The definition of an ultimatum is a final proposition, condition, or demand; especially one whose rejection will end negotiations and cause a resort to force or other direct action.

I think that fits your analogy perfectly. It also fits the situation God has put us in.

So I ask you, what good is Free Will when you have a gun pointed at your head? It is a compulsion by threat, ie DURESS. That's not acceptable in a court of law for a reason.

(Also, you made fun of the term "omnimax", would you please explain why?)

 

[Genesis1315]

When you are referring to eternity, how many different choices are needed? With God/Without God

 

[Dark Virtue]

Hey, I'm not the one making the rules

The problem comes with the reality of the choices.

You accept and you go to heaven. You decline and you go to hell.

Sounds simple, but it's not. First of all, no one actually GOES to heaven. Christ is coming HERE to set up New Jerusalem HERE and to rule HERE. So much for heaven.

And what about hell? Are nonbelievers going to spend an eternity anguishing in a lake of fire or are nonbelievers going to spend an eternity somewhere doing something apart from God for eternity?

Christians are split on the rewards and Christians are split on the punishments.

I am going under the assumption that God will grant those who accept Him an eternal gift and those who do not choose him an eternal punishment. That's as broad as we can make this argument.

Let's use cookies as an analogy. A CHOICE would be me offering you a macadamia nut cookie or an oatmeal cookie. Both yummy cookies in their own right, so it's an equal decision. An ULTIMATUM would be tell you to choose between a chocolate chip cookie and a .45 slug in the head. You may not like chocolate chips, but hey, it beats a hole in your head.

God is the one holding the .45...or in this case everlasting punishment. The choices aren't weighted equally, making this a divine, Godly ultimatum. In this case, Free Will is negated as the choice is obviously slanted in God's favor.

 

[Weazel]

Quote[/b] ]Hey, I'm not the one making the rules

The problem comes with the reality of the choices.  

You accept and you go to heaven.  You decline and you go to hell.

Sounds simple, but it's not.  First of all, no one actually GOES to heaven.  Christ is coming HERE to set up New Jerusalem HERE and to rule HERE.  So much for heaven.

And what about hell?  Are nonbelievers going to spend an eternity anguishing in a lake of fire or are nonbelievers going to spend an eternity somewhere doing something apart from God for eternity?

Christians are split on the rewards and Christians are split on the punishments.

I am going under the assumption that God will grant those who accept Him an eternal gift and those who do not choose him an eternal punishment.  That's as broad as we can make this argument.

Let's use cookies as an analogy.  A CHOICE would be me offering you a macadamia nut cookie or an oatmeal cookie.  Both yummy cookies in their own right, so it's an equal decision.  An ULTIMATUM would be tell you to choose between a chocolate chip cookie and a .45 slug in the head.  You may not like chocolate chips, but hey, it beats a hole in your head.

God is the one holding the .45...or in this case everlasting punishment.  The choices aren't weighted equally, making this a divine, Godly ultimatum.  In this case, Free Will is negated as the choice is obviously slanted in God's favor.

If that is true, why are there still so many people who choose not to follow God? Given the option, "Follow God or die", you'd think nearly everyone would choose the former, but that is certainly not the case.

What it is is that we are given the choice to either serve the world or to give up these worldly possessions to follow God.

"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." - Galatians 2:20

"Then Jesus said to his disciples, 'I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.'" - Matthew 19:23-24




Also, I want to note that you are really taking this choice for granted, if you choose to believe in it. The truth of the matter is that no one deserves to go to heaven, and only by God's grace are we given this choice (Cliche I know, but very relevent). This is much better than the alternative, eg. sin and you go to hell, don't you think?  

It's not God sticking a gun to your head. It's a gun that is put to your head, period. And God is kind enough to do something about it if you simply follow Him.

If you want, read Romans chapter 3. It gives a very good description of God's grace. It is too long to post, so here's a link:Romans chapter 3

And of course, there's John 3:16  

 

[SLNT_FIR]

I haven't read all the posts. Anyway, DV you are trying to rationalize God's actions and understand his personality or what he would do. you simply can't. if i spent 5 hours a day doing whatever, that is related to getting closer to god, and i did that for many years until i was 100 yrs old (about 70-90 more years) i wouldn't be able to comprehend God fully like you are trying 2 do. that is just AMAZING! try not to use human things to compare God to.

"our goodness is only God's reflection"

 

[Marcylene]

Weasel, I love it!  You are wise beyond your years.  

I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.  Psalm 119: 99

He choose us!  Gen made a wonderful point, too.  We are speaking of the Spiritual realm, there are only two choices.  Well, the enemy would love you to think you can have any option that you want, he has offered many gods. But God offers the choicest of the choice!  

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.  John 15:16  

He has already chosen us, now it is left up to us, to choose Him.

I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid before me. Psalm 119:30

D.V.!  You are growing on us  As I read what you have written, you talk about Christianity disagreeing.  You are an intelligent man, it is all in the Book, you can answer those questions for yourself.  

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:  Deuteronomy 30:19

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.  Joshua 24:15

For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:  Proverbs 1:29


It is not up to us to understand it all, or to be able to explain everything.  That comes with time, but I think there are some things that are to remain a mystery.

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.  II Chronicles 7:14

When men are cast down, then thou shalt say, There is lifting up; and he shall save the humble person.  Job 22:29

But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.  James 4:6

Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:  I Peter 5: 5 & 6



Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:  Luke 22:67  
So many witnesses!  So much love!  All you have to do is believe!

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.  II Corinthians 4:4

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.  Hebrews 11:6


And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15...It is a choice.  Not a very logical choice considering...

Logic + Reasoning = God explained away

Jesus + 0 = Our Salvation

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Weazel @ Nov. 03 2004,8:37)]

Quote[/b] ]If that is true, why are there still so many people who choose not to follow God?

Because roughly 67% of the world doesn't believe in your God to begin with.

Quote[/b] ]Also, I want to note that you are really taking this choice for granted, if you choose to believe in it. The truth of the matter is that no one deserves to go to heaven, and only by God's grace are we given this choice (Cliche I know, but very relevent). This is much better than the alternative, eg. sin and you go to hell, don't you think?

It's not God sticking a gun to your head. It's a gun that is put to your head, period. And God is kind enough to do something about it if you simply follow Him.

You're only seeing half the picture. Given that God has given us an ultimatum, doesn't that negate the wonderful gift of Free Will?

What the heck is the point of Free Will if we don't have two EVENLY WEIGHTED choices?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (SilentAssassin @ Nov. 03 2004,10:08)]I haven't read all the posts. Anyway, DV you are trying to rationalize God's actions and understand his personality or what he would do. you simply can't. if i spent 5 hours a day doing whatever, that is related to getting closer to god, and i did that for many years until i was 100 yrs old (about 70-90 more years) i wouldn't be able to comprehend God fully like you are trying 2 do. that is just AMAZING! try not to use human things to compare God to.

"our goodness is only God's reflection"

If you haven't rationalized God, then what are you doing following Him?