Jesus, the Spotted Lamb

Timor pls remember something as well.  In the Day of Atonement sacrifice there were multiple goats involved (See Lev 16)

the two primary ones were the Lord's Goat and the Scape Goat

Now the Lord's Goat was offered up, it's blood used to cover the sins of the people.  While the Scape goat ran off into the wilderness with those same sins  upon itself.  In this way, the Day of Atonement sacrifice took the sins of Israel upon it, and atoned for them.

Now Christ is the Atonement Sacrifice to the Nth degree, and as the Atonement Sacrifice, the sins of the world are upon Him, yet He is also the Perfect Lord's Goat, slaughtered for His blood to wash away and cleanse the sins of the people.  But notice what is lacking.  The scape goat.  Because Christ's blood is the perfect offering, if fully washed away the sins, so the sins are not merely covered, but they are washed fully away.

Now onto your entire concept that Christ became sin.  It's not entirely accurate.  The sacrifice of Christ carried the sin, yet Christ did not perform the sin.  Christ bore the sin, and more importantly the punishment for the sin, yet Christ did not perform the sin.

The three verses that deal with Christ and bearing our sin  are these
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]1 Peter 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."
Rom. 8:3-4, "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh. 4in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."
2 Cor. 5:21, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
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Now the only one of those three that supports your argument is 2 Corinthians 5:21, yet do notice that Christ knew no sin,  yet he became sin. His all important sacrifice took on the sins of the world, and as the Lord's
Goat, His blood washed those sins away.  Christ became the sin, but they at no time were His.  Did He pay the price for them?  Yes.  But as has been said before (LoJ's analogy) if I pay a fine for you, does that mean that fine is mine?


But just to say that Christ should be in Hell, because He was paying the price for our sins, the only problem there is that His blood and broken body are the cleansing agents for those sins, so upon His death He was atoned, slightly round logic, but oh well.
 
bravo kidan, u just said almost excatly wat ive been tryin to say this entire time.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Atown @ Nov. 05 2003,10:11)]asuming ur not a christian after nearly 500 posts and noone cares wat u think?? how sad either way.
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Mmmm...I can feel your Christian love there Atown.
 
Very round, my freind. His death is still no different than any of ours.

Atown, he said it much better than you did...but then again, Kidan's like that =P
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Atown @ Nov. 05 2003,11:11)]and am i not being clear or enough or are u dense? no offense

and quick question for u, uve been here for a while i will assume and y u keep comin back here? i mean at this point i have trouble believeing ur a christian yet u post stuff like this and expect ur own faith to be killed? asuming ur not a christian after nearly 500 posts and noone cares wat u think?? how sad either way.
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Dude, I came here when I used to be a Christian. Then, when I lost my faith, I kept coming back, because I love the people here (that is, certain ones...you didn't necessarily come to mind) and because I love the discussion/debate. Now, enough ad hominems. Please try to form some rational, logical posts on here.

btw, I'm not the dense one...but I told CCGR I wouldn't get into any more silly name-callings.......
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (timor @ Nov. 06 2003,12:20)]Very round, my freind. His death is still no different than any of ours.
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well, the round logic only applies if Christ had performed our sins, instead of being the Lord's Goat to wash them away (ie if Christ were the scape goat as opposed to the Lord's Goat). The remainder of my post answers the initial question/posting

[b said:
Quote[/b] (timor @ Nov. 06 2003,12:20)]...but then again, Kidan's like that =P
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hmm....maybe a new tag  
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how can anyone not be offended by ebing called dense? Atown, no name calling please. sorry I didn't catch it earlier life is distracting now...
 
I have not name called i was asking a simple question to better understand a way to defend christianity and if it has appeared i was name calling i said no offense, heck just last week someone called me dense and i could care less. and i was just wonderin timor i enjoy this place to and this topic has scraped my Bible knowlege dry. though theres somethin missing i cant seem to remember, dangit, i need more notes in church. oh well anythere thing timor there are no hard feelings, heck u can auctually type my name right at other forums i have to correct everyone, that my name isnt A town but Atown
 
i think he's talking about Cheryl's current state of distraction, not Atown calling you names
 
sry guys was talking to CCGR there, she has every reason to be distracted and that is what i was saying
 
Kidan has posited a well thought out response, but its defense of the legitimacy of Christ's sacrifice is in fact flawed.

In the argument, we see him state that Jesus did not commit the sins, instead he merely held them, or possessed them. I would agree.

The problem I see is this, original sin.

Although one didn't commit original sin, everyone is born with its possession. Strangely, everyone who possesses original sin, is punished for it. I don't seem to be in the garden...

If Christ held any sin, he could not defeat death, but he held all of the sin... To
 
Original sin is the sin of disobedience.

Now, when we gain this is an interesting concept, for the Bible teaches us that all are born into it, yet the Bible teaches that when we are born we are innocent.

Because our fathers sinned (it's passed down by fathers) we have the predisposition to sin and will do so, yet we don't start until we've been alive for a bit.  

When my son was first born, he didn't do anything wrong.  He was an innocent.  now that he's older, we've been teaching him NO.  He understands no.  He knows that when NO is spoken, he's to stop.  and Yes, he does stop.  He stops, looks at me, and 5 times out of 10 will go right back to doing what he was doing.  That's the sin of disobedience, that's the Original Sin.  

You were born innocent.  Yet you performed the selfsame Original Sin.
 
dang kidan ur good. also i thought up another anology: ok think of it this way, when Jesus was on the cross all sin was on him, and he died with all that sin on him. think of sin as a big blackness that coverd Jesus' body while on the cross. now since Jesus' blood wash's away sin, think of the 5 (or was it 6) peirced points of Jesus' body that would still be bleeding and since His blood washs sin away all the black sin on Jesus gets washed away. therefore all sin disapeard and therefor Jesus in the end was spotless.
 
No problem, Atown. And Sorry Lion, read your thing wrong.

Now, Atown, about your analogy. I really don't like analogies. We should all be intelligent enough to discuss the matters at hand as they really are, not with abstract comparisons. Let us avoid analogies, because you will *never* convince me with usch analogies as "a big blackness that covered Jesus' body".

But, just to show you why your analogy is flawed....why don't our sins get washed away in Hell? Once again, why does Jesus get off so easily? Perhaps God is playing favorites.

Kidan, I always believed that Original sin was a condition, and that humans were born sinful. Now, if all we have when we are born is a predisposition towards sin, many problems arise:

1) Jesus never had the ability to sin, which many Christians assert he did. Tempting him, as Satan did in the desert, would have been foolish.

2) The Bible cannot say that all have sinned, because *SOMEONE* may come along who, for whatever reason, is able to avoid sin (like Jesus). If we are not born with sin in us, but only a leaning towards sin, we may still escape it. You would think that with the billions and billions of people that have lived and will live on Earth, atleast one of them (besides Jesus) would live sinlessly.

3) The wages of sin is death. Now, as you've said, infants cannot sin. However, I assert that according to the doctrine of original sin, babies are already cursed with sin. Now, if this is not so, and all original sin is is a predisposition towards sin, infants should not be able to die, since they have not sinned, and death is the penalty for sin. However, infants die all the time.
 
ok timor i'll stop with anologies.though i thought that last one was the best one of this topic. when in hell there is no going back we are stuck there for enternity. so it really doesnt matter. and Since Jesus was God in the flesh, He really cant play favourites with Himself
 
ATown--that was the round logic me and Timor was discussing a few posts back.


Timor --
problem 1isn't a problem. There is a difference between a predisposition and an ability.  I have the ability to smoke, but not the predisposition to do so.  


It's two and three that actually pose issues with what I said.  As for 2, I find it hard that there exists someone that could actually manage to not break any of the OT Laws.  I read somewhere (it's been awhile, so this number could be off somewhat, and I don't have a reference) that on a good day, an average Jew broke around 100 laws, but it is a possibility.

But as for 3, yes the wages of sin is death.  But is this a spiritual or a physical death?  Paul said that due to sin, some of the saints were sleeping, did he mean they were taking long naps or did they just physically die and were awaiting the judgment?  I'm of the opinion that it is a spiritual wage, since the reward for acceptance of Christ's gift to us, is a spiritual reward (or at least post-life).  The wages of sin is death, an absence from the source of life, which is Christ.  Yet physical death is just the wearing out of our bodies (or the happening of some other event which causes them to cease to function).  We physically die, and then we pay the wages of sin, or gain the reward for accepting the offer of Salvation.
 
Atown, why didn't Jesus go to Hell, then? If you answer "Because he's God", you're finished. Don't even try it.

Great points, Kidan. Now, I'll admit, I had to actually scroll up and see what we were actually talking about
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Despite the points you made, the fact remains that the consequence (the predisposition) of Original Sin hangs over us, and we suffer for it. In the same way, the penalty of all of our sins hung over Jesus when he was on the cross.

Now, I thought that there was a verse somewhere where Paul spoke of how we are guilty with Adam, or how we cry out or somesuch. I'll have to look it up later, sorry I don't have the exact verse. However, if you know which verse I'm speaking of, this illustrates my point.
 
Here's an interesting quote on that particular subject (the Original Sin)
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Second, verse 15 declares death to be the direct result of Adam's sin and nothing else: "by the transgression of the one the many died." Many died because of Adam's transgression--period. There is no room for the mediating link of original sin for the sake of connecting us to imputed sin. To say that Adam's sin is imputed us because of our possession of original sin is to destroy this verse.

Third, verse 18 considers condemnation to be the direct result of Adam's sin: "through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men." We see the same thing in verses 16, 17, and 19. In the chapter of Romans 5, Paul is teaching that death reigns over all because of Adam's sin (vv. 12, 14, 15, 17), condemnation reigns over all because of Adam's sin (vv. 16, 18), judgement comes upon all because of Adam's sin (v. 16), and that all are constituted sinners because of Adam's sin (v. 19). In other words, everybody is imputed with Adam's sin, which brings about death, judgement and condemnation to all. There is no room here for any mediating link.
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Reference
 
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