Is the doctrine of Unconditional Eternal Security Biblical?

[Phrankdatank]

Topic. Is the idea of OSAS/Unconditional Eternal Security Biblical or can a Christian be truly converted and later lose their salvation?

I'm of the latter persuasion that they can, but I want your opinions on the matter.

 

[Durruck]

I think this goes back to the discussion on blasphemy of the Spirit. Willful and purposeful disrespect of the Spirit could separate you from Jesus. Beyond that, I don't believe so.

Romans 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,(m) neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(m) Romans 8:38 Or nor heavenly rulers

 

[Avesther]

John 15:2

What do you think happens to the branches that do not bear fruit, that are cut away and do not remain in him (Jesus)?

John 15:6
They become like a branch that is thrown away and withers, they are picked up, thrown in the fire and burned.

 

[Lazarus]

I believe that God annihilates people's souls in the unquenchable fires of hell after they have been tortured night and day for an eternity - unless they live a holy, perfect, sinless life from the day of their birth to the day of their death.

 

[Abba San]

Lazarus - it took me quite a while to quit laughing after your post. Thanks.

 

[Thryisen]

Simple answer, yes.

 

[Keero]

I believe they can lose their salvation.

 

[Patriot]

I believe they can lose their salvation.

How? What does one have to do in order to lose it?

 

[Phrankdatank]

How? What does one have to do in order to lose it?

There are several ways:

1. Renouncing/turning your back on Christ, especially during a time of persecution. Jesus Christ says that if you deny Him before men, He will deny you before the Father on Judgment Day(Matthew 10:33).

2. Living in unrepentant, known, willful sin. Hebrews 10:26 says "For if we sin WILFULLY after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins".

The Bible means what it says and says what it means. If one claims to be a Christian but lives in known sin, thinking God's grace will cover them, they have another thing coming. God's grace is NOT a license to sin, but rather gives one the OPPORTUNITY TO REPENT. Jesus Christ came to save us from our sins and to TAKE OUR SINS AWAY

John 1:29 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKETH AWAY the sin of the world."

Jesus Christ is not going to take away the guilt of our sins while we're still holding on to them.

It's also a bad idea to say "I'll sin now and repent later." That is presumption. We as believers are called to live holy lives acceptable to God.

3. Become unfruitful- The Bible says that if you don't abide in Jesus Christ and stay fruitful you will be cut off.

John 15:1-2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that BEARETH NOT FRUIT HE TAKETH AWAY: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."

John 15:6 "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

No, I am not saying that we are saved by good deeds. The Bible makes it clear that it is by grace through faith we are initially saved. However, a genuine faith will always result in good works, especially in the area of evangelism.

Remember the parable of the servants and the talents, where the guys with 5 and 2 talents went out and made profit, while the guy with 1 talent was afraid and lazy and buried his talent? The guys that made good on their talents were accepted by the Master, whereas the guy with 1 talent had his talent taken away and cast into outer darkness. The lazy servant was even told that the very least he could have done is to put the talent in the bank so that the master could have gotten interest.

Now, realize that he might not have gotten a lot from the interest(banks never do give you much), but it is my theory that if the Lazy servant would have put the money into the bank that the master would have had mercy and not have cast him into the fire.

That leads to my point. We all need to be doing SOMETHING to serve the Lord and bring forth fruit. Even wearing a good Christian T-shirt(I don't like those Kerusso popular culture parodies, such as "Faithbook" and things, I like ordering custom shirts from Cafepress.com and Zazzle.com that have strong repentance messages on them that mention Hell and Repentance) is better than nothing. Putting some Christian bumper stickers on your car is another way to further the kingdom(yes it may lower the value on your car but if it leads to someone getting saved then who cares about a few hundred to a few thousand dollars).

There are numerous ways to spread the gospel, even if you have a timid personality like I do.

4. This is a special case, because I believe in a future rapture of true Christians and a 7 year tribulation period, but here it is:

If a Christian during the Tribulation Period was to take the Antichrist's 666 Mark in order to be able to buy or sell. Revelation 14:9-11 makes it very clear that ANYONE who takes the 666 mark will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. That would include former Christians. Note that taking this mark is an unforgivable sin since you will be pledging your loyalty, trust, and worship to the Antichrist instead of to God, who ALONE deserves our loyalty, trust, and worship.

That will be a time of tremendous testing of one's loyalties to the uttermost, where God will be seeing if you truly love Him with all your heart or if you're really only loyal to yourself, as will be evidenced by your choice to either refuse the Mark, repent of your sins and submit to Jesus Christ, and risk starvation(which will be the result of not being able to buy and sell), intense persecution, rejection by society and even your former family and friends who take the mark, imprisonment, possible torture, and beheading.

If one was to relapse in their faith and take the mark, regardless of the circumstances, their eternal doom would be SEALED.

 

[Patriot]

There are several ways:

1. Renouncing/turning your back on Christ, especially during a time of persecution. Jesus Christ says that if you deny Him before men, He will deny you before the Father on Judgment Day(Matthew 10:33).

Yet, what if you repent afterward? Does not the verse directly before this one state: "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven"? If I take this verse to the extreme you have taken the verse after it, then if we turn to God one time we will be saved for all time. They both can't be taken to the extreme or they contradict each other. So why should one be taken to the extreme over the other?

2. Living in unrepentant, known, willful sin. Hebrews 10:26 says "For if we sin WILFULLY after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins".

I sin even though I am saved. I have sinned willfully (is there such thing as un-willful sin?). In the time between my sin and my repentance for that sin have I lost my salvation? If so, do I have to die with a prayer for forgiveness on my lips to actually be saved? If not, how long must I be unrepentant before I have actually lost my salvation?

In light of Ephesians 1:3-14 and Romans 8:1-4, the initial interpretation of Hebrews 10:26 does not make sense. If our salvation is determined by God, how are we to change it? A more in-depth look at Hebrews is needed. Who is the author speaking to? Christian Jews? What does he mean by there is no longer any sacrifice for sins? Could it be that these Christian Jews were still sacrificing animals for their sins despite knowing the gospel (that there is no more need for a sacrifice)? Is this perhaps why the author speaks immediately after this verse about Mosaic law? Is the insult to God that these Christians were not relying on Christ's all-sufficient sacrifice but were continuing in the Mosaic practice of offer a sacrifice for their sins? Is the judgment mentioned an eternal judgment or a period of judgment upon Israel?

I cannot tell you exactly what Hebrews 10:26 is saying, but because the quick interpretation does not work with the rest of Scripture I do not think that is the interpretation we should immediately go to.

The Bible means what it says and says what it means.

But the Bible was originally written in different languages to different cultures and peoples. We must be careful to not ignore translation issues and context.

If one claims to be a Christian but lives in known sin, thinking God's grace will cover them, they have another thing coming. God's grace is NOT a license to sin, but rather gives one the OPPORTUNITY TO REPENT. Jesus Christ came to save us from our sins and to TAKE OUR SINS AWAY

John 1:29 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKETH AWAY the sin of the world."

Jesus Christ is not going to take away the guilt of our sins while we're still holding on to them.

It's also a bad idea to say "I'll sin now and repent later." That is presumption. We as believers are called to live holy lives acceptable to God.

Agreed.

3. Become unfruitful- The Bible says that if you don't abide in Jesus Christ and stay fruitful you will be cut off.

John 15:1-2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that BEARETH NOT FRUIT HE TAKETH AWAY: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."

John 15:6 "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

No, I am not saying that we are saved by good deeds. The Bible makes it clear that it is by grace through faith we are initially saved. However, a genuine faith will always result in good works, especially in the area of evangelism.

Matthew 7:17-18 "Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit."

You say it yourself, a genuine faith will always result in good works (fruit). Therefore, if one bears bad fruit they did not have a genuine faith to begin with. The issue is not loss of salvation due to bad fruit, but not having ever gained salvation in the first place. As to evangelism being a special case of where we should really show good works, I'd like to see some scriptural support.

Remember the parable of the servants and the talents, where the guys with 5 and 2 talents went out and made profit, while the guy with 1 talent was afraid and lazy and buried his talent? The guys that made good on their talents were accepted by the Master, whereas the guy with 1 talent had his talent taken away and cast into outer darkness. The lazy servant was even told that the very least he could have done is to put the talent in the bank so that the master could have gotten interest.

Now, realize that he might not have gotten a lot from the interest(banks never do give you much), but it is my theory that if the Lazy servant would have put the money into the bank that the master would have had mercy and not have cast him into the fire.

That leads to my point. We all need to be doing SOMETHING to serve the Lord and bring forth fruit.

We need to be doing what He says to be doing. Not doing something for the sake of doing something or for appearing "spiritual".

Even wearing a good Christian T-shirt(I don't like those Kerusso popular culture parodies, such as "Faithbook" and things, I like ordering custom shirts from Cafepress.com and Zazzle.com that have strong repentance messages on them that mention Hell and Repentance) is better than nothing. Putting some Christian bumper stickers on your car is another way to further the kingdom(yes it may lower the value on your car but if it leads to someone getting saved then who cares about a few hundred to a few thousand dollars).

I'm not real big on these methods, but that's a can of worms I'm reluctant to open.

4. This is a special case, because I believe in a future rapture of true Christians and a 7 year tribulation period, but here it is:

If a Christian during the Tribulation Period was to take the Antichrist's 666 Mark in order to be able to buy or sell. Revelation 14:9-11 makes it very clear that ANYONE who takes the 666 mark will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. That would include former Christians. Note that taking this mark is an unforgivable sin since you will be pledging your loyalty, trust, and worship to the Antichrist instead of to God, who ALONE deserves our loyalty, trust, and worship.

That will be a time of tremendous testing of one's loyalties to the uttermost, where God will be seeing if you truly love Him with all your heart or if you're really only loyal to yourself, as will be evidenced by your choice to either refuse the Mark, repent of your sins and submit to Jesus Christ, and risk starvation(which will be the result of not being able to buy and sell), intense persecution, rejection by society and even your former family and friends who take the mark, imprisonment, possible torture, and beheading.

If one was to relapse in their faith and take the mark, regardless of the circumstances, their eternal doom would be SEALED.

I'd rather not get into a debate over eschatology, so I'm just going to let this go.

 

[RyanB]

One thing I would add is this:
I do not believe there is an biblical foundation for saying that salvation "can't" be lost. The scripture I hear referenced the most as the reason people believe you can't lose salvation:
"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:27-30)

Problem with using that as "proof" is it's extending the definition. It says no one can "snatch" me from Jesus...doesn't say I can't leave, fall from grace, etc.

Anyway, I think one thing to keep in mind is that there is a difference between "salvation" and receiving the holy spirit. Many people equate the two, and so they can't separate them in their mind.

 

[Patriot]

One thing I would add is this:
I do not believe there is an biblical foundation for saying that salvation "can't" be lost. The scripture I hear referenced the most as the reason people believe you can't lose salvation:
"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:27-30)

Problem with using that as "proof" is it's extending the definition. It says no one can "snatch" me from Jesus...doesn't say I can't leave, fall from grace, etc.

Anyway, I think one thing to keep in mind is that there is a difference between "salvation" and receiving the holy spirit. Many people equate the two, and so they can't separate them in their mind.

Which begs the question, why would anyone who had truly tasted of God's forgiveness and mercy, willfully and purposefully cast it aside?

Nor does this address the passage: Ephesians 1:3-14. Which essentially says that those who are God's were chosen by Him. If we are chosen by Him, who are we to think that we can choose to NOT be His?

 

[RyanB]

Which begs the question, why would anyone who had truly tasted of God's forgiveness and mercy, willfully and purposefully cast it aside?

Nor does this address the passage: Ephesians 1:3-14. Which essentially says that those who are God's were chosen by Him. If we are chosen by Him, who are we to think that we can choose to NOT be His?

Yeah, why would they? No clue. As for being chosen by God, was that directed at whether or not we have free will? If so, I'd recommend checking out that thread (you'll have to adjust your options to show more than the last 30 days). Lots of good stuff there.

 

[Thryisen]

Yeah, why would they? No clue. As for being chosen by God, was that directed at whether or not we have free will? If so, I'd recommend checking out that thread (you'll have to adjust your options to show more than the last 30 days). Lots of good stuff there.

The way I read his comment wasn't to deflect this topic, but to point out in Scripture that it teaches that God chose for Himself people before the world began, and as it relates to the question of whether I can "lose" my salvation, the point is that God is the Author of it..and the finisher. I did not choose Him but He chose me. So I cannot undo God's choice.

 

[Patriot]

The way I read his comment wasn't to deflect this topic, but to point out in Scripture that it teaches that God chose for Himself people before the world began, and as it relates to the question of whether I can "lose" my salvation, the point is that God is the Author of it..and the finisher. I did not choose Him but He chose me. So I cannot undo God's choice.

This is what I was getting at. Thank you for the clarification, Thryisen.

 

[Sassamo]

When my wife and I had decided(been led by God) to leave our previous denomination for scriptural reasons, one of my few requirements for our new church was to not believe in eternal salvation. We like to study out the scriptures and do everything we can to the best of our abilities, and as far as we saw, or at least myself, salvation was losable. We made it a point to speak with the pastor and obtain their statements of faith on our first visit to each new church we tried. We ended up eventually trying out a church down the street from where we live, and for some reason, even though they supported eternal salvation, something grabbed our attention and we decided to return a few times. After much discussion/debate/study with the pastor, I was finally able to see the truth to OSAS.

First of all, we're probably all familiar with the following scripture:

Romans 8:38-39 38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This pretty clearly outlines that nothing is able to take away our salvation. Of course, my response to this, as touched on earlier, is that we could choose to give up our salvation on our own. Well, even if this were possible, one thing was for sure, it would be a one way decision:

Hebrews 6:4-6 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

However, if there's anything certain in life, it's that man will fail. Man is totally incapable of attaining salvation through works, that's why God sent his Son. If God gave us this provision, knowing of our inevitable fallability, why would he then expect us to be able to maintain that salvation in any way?

2 Timothy 1:12 12For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
2 Timothy 2:13 13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

We can't maintain salvation, let alone obtain it, by ourselves, it is in Jesus' hand to keep us . Not only that, but once we are a part of His body, if we were able to depart, we would be corrupting the uncorruptable, and that can't happen.

A good evidence of eternal salvation can be found in 1 Corinthians. Not only is the idea of 'carnal christians' we covered, but there is a very good display of OSAS:

1 Corinthians 5:5 5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Here a man, a fellow christian, was knowingly committing vile sin, and no one was doing anything about it. As Paul instructs, let his body be killed by the devil, and after this, his soul would be saved.

Now, that's not to say that everyone who ever went to church is definately going to Heaven:

1 John 2:19 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

If one were to appear to 'Apostacize'(fall from grace), then more than likely they were never saved to begin with, they were just part of the crowd. This final scripture, I admit may be more of an inference, but I thought I'd list it in view of the rest of this post:

Matthew 7:21-23 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

There are those who will claim to have done miracles in the name of the Lord, yet will not make it to Heaven. Jesus' response, "I NEVER knew you", not "I have forgotten you."