CCGR
Member
God knows who uly accept him ad Lord and those who are just seeking fire insurance
Is the BIBLE true? and what does this board think?
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Kidan
Moderator
actually Islam, is not really exclusivist. They claim it, but according to their religion Allah decides who gets into heaven by the life you lead (i.e. how good you lived your life). Even Muslims are not accorded a place in Heaven (unless they die during a Jihad). According to the Koran, at death, any who do not die during Jihad go to Hell. Then later (this is according to the Suri) Allah will look over your life, and decide whether or not you can get into paradise, based upon the life you have lead.
Salvation for a Hindu is called Moksha. Moksha is when an enlightened human being is freed from the cycle of life-and-death (the endless cycle of death and reincarnation) and comes into a state of completeness. He then becomes one with God (Brahmain). There are four ways to Moksha:
1. The Way of Action: This involves carrying out certain religious ceremonies, duties and rites. The objective is to perform works without regard for personal gain.
2. The Way of Knowledge: This requires using your mind and philosophy to come to a complete comprehension of the universe.
3. The Way of Devotion: Salvation is reached through acts of worship, based upon the love for a God (there are thousands of gods in Hinduism).
4.The Royal Road: The use of meditation and yoga techniques. This method of reaching salvation is typically only used by wandering monks.
Each of these ways to salvation in Hinduism requires that a person do certain things. Salvation is through what a Hindu does. It is through human works. (Christianity falls nicely in Road 1 and 3)
The other major religion (Budhism) to acheive enlightenment (Nirvana) you must follow the eightfold path. Which while not exactly corresponding with Christian living, it is truly close enough to get you a good spot in the next life.
Now shall we go to lesser practiced religions?
Zoarastarinism (sp) No matter what you do in this, you get to heaven sooner or later
Druidic/Pagan/Wiccan -- again, live a good life, and the Higher dieties get to decide whether or not you get into paradise
Toaism--salvation is acheived by following the way (which is a practice of good works basically)
Confucianism--this isn't a religion per se, though it's usually classed and studied as one. but again, it's how you treat those around you.
do you need more?
Now compare this to Christianity, where if you accept Christ you KNOW that you will reach Heaven. It's not up to the whims of some divine being, or hoping you have done enough good works throughout your lifetime to achieve the next step. Yet while all those other religions says "Do good works, an u get in". Christ said that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and that no man will enter His Father's kingdom except rhrough Him. Without a saving knowledge of Christ, all your works are in vain, and they will not get you into Heaven. It is through our relationship with Christ that we reach Heaven.
Salvation for a Hindu is called Moksha. Moksha is when an enlightened human being is freed from the cycle of life-and-death (the endless cycle of death and reincarnation) and comes into a state of completeness. He then becomes one with God (Brahmain). There are four ways to Moksha:
1. The Way of Action: This involves carrying out certain religious ceremonies, duties and rites. The objective is to perform works without regard for personal gain.
2. The Way of Knowledge: This requires using your mind and philosophy to come to a complete comprehension of the universe.
3. The Way of Devotion: Salvation is reached through acts of worship, based upon the love for a God (there are thousands of gods in Hinduism).
4.The Royal Road: The use of meditation and yoga techniques. This method of reaching salvation is typically only used by wandering monks.
Each of these ways to salvation in Hinduism requires that a person do certain things. Salvation is through what a Hindu does. It is through human works. (Christianity falls nicely in Road 1 and 3)
The other major religion (Budhism) to acheive enlightenment (Nirvana) you must follow the eightfold path. Which while not exactly corresponding with Christian living, it is truly close enough to get you a good spot in the next life.
Now shall we go to lesser practiced religions?
Zoarastarinism (sp) No matter what you do in this, you get to heaven sooner or later
Druidic/Pagan/Wiccan -- again, live a good life, and the Higher dieties get to decide whether or not you get into paradise
Toaism--salvation is acheived by following the way (which is a practice of good works basically)
Confucianism--this isn't a religion per se, though it's usually classed and studied as one. but again, it's how you treat those around you.
do you need more?
Now compare this to Christianity, where if you accept Christ you KNOW that you will reach Heaven. It's not up to the whims of some divine being, or hoping you have done enough good works throughout your lifetime to achieve the next step. Yet while all those other religions says "Do good works, an u get in". Christ said that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and that no man will enter His Father's kingdom except rhrough Him. Without a saving knowledge of Christ, all your works are in vain, and they will not get you into Heaven. It is through our relationship with Christ that we reach Heaven.
[b said:
Ah, but you obviously had the opportunity and exposure to Islam. Look at it like this. Prior to contact with Christianity, if an Indian died, would they go to heaven or hell? most Christians would answer heaven, since they never had the opportunity, perhaps with a "if they led a good life" or something along those lines.
What would make you any different? Allah would wonder why on earth you were worshiping the prophet Jesus. Why are you praying to him? Heck, he even sent you a sign with the twin towers that Jesus was nothing but a prophet (else would he have not stopped the planes?)
No, it is still a risky proposition.
[b said:
You think you could provide a reference for that? I'm curious to know where in the Koran that's found, and my muslim friend says it isn't in there.
The Vishnu comment was me being a bit flippant. It was an attempt at humor.
However, "good works" in Hinduism are not the same as "good works" in Christianity. And how much good works do you need to do?
[b said:
No you don't. For one thing, the Bishop of Rome could be right. Been Baptized? Full immersion?
Also...you need works. (dueling Bible time. You can now show where "faith alone justifies.")
Rev. 3
[b said:
James 2
[b said:
And...just another thought, this time from Jesus...
Matt 7
[b said:
So say all you want...Jesus will be booting some "Christians" come judgement day. Also, honestly, you look at the old testament...God sure changed his mind an awful lot. So I wouldn't count on it anyway.
Kidan
Moderator
Koran, Sura 19, verses 67-68 and 71-72
The most relevant to this discussion
As for Hinduism, notice that there aree 4 paths toward salvation. And Christianity falls nicely within 2 of them. the path of action and the path of devotion.
As a Christian, you should do things without thought of possible reward. Likewise, going to church, prayers, daily Bible readings, praise an worship, these things are an aspect of the path of devotion. Besides, if you fail the first time, you always get another chance
now onto the comment about the Indian. This is true, but the difference is afterwards. I know this information about Budhism, Hinduism, and Islam, and still, my abiliity to reach the highest state in those religion hinges upon the actions I do. Whereas in Christianity, my ability to reach Heaven, depends entirely upon whether or not I accept Christ.
The most relevant to this discussion
Also there's a nicely relevant discussion between the operator of Christian Apologetics Research Ministries and a Muslim found HERE.[b said:
As for Hinduism, notice that there aree 4 paths toward salvation. And Christianity falls nicely within 2 of them. the path of action and the path of devotion.
As a Christian, you should do things without thought of possible reward. Likewise, going to church, prayers, daily Bible readings, praise an worship, these things are an aspect of the path of devotion. Besides, if you fail the first time, you always get another chance
now onto the comment about the Indian. This is true, but the difference is afterwards. I know this information about Budhism, Hinduism, and Islam, and still, my abiliity to reach the highest state in those religion hinges upon the actions I do. Whereas in Christianity, my ability to reach Heaven, depends entirely upon whether or not I accept Christ.
Although I personally feel that Christianity is the way to Heaven I think this is poor arguement on the Christian's behalf ....[b said:
[b said:
'Abdul' does answer his question, it just seems that 'Matt' desires Abdul to know all that God knows =/
[b said:
'Matt' also seemed to have made his mind up before entering the debate so thus there was no point to it, as is the case with most religious discussion in my opinion. Basically I fail to see the real relevancy of this.
[b said:
[b said:
Kidan doesn't this going against the Protestant belief that Salvation alone is the key to Heaven? Aren't you saying that you have to perform actions to get to Heaven or am I mistaken?
[b said:
Really should apply to all people regardless of religion =/
Kidan
Moderator
atop -- no Matt is trying to make Abdul see that Abdul's salvation is more or less at the whim of Allah, whereas, in Christianity, it's fairly well spelt out. And no, Abdul, never did answer Matt's initial question. Matt asked "Are you going to paradise" Abdul answered '"Going to paradise or hell is in the hands of God. But worshipping a false God, makes u that much closer to hell." That is basically saying 'I don't know' without realizing it.
As for Matt having made up his mind, he's a Christian apologist. The same as discussions I have with people of other religions, I know that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. I will not change my mind on this. now doctrinal issues within Christianity, I will change my mind on based upon the Bible, but I won't become Muslim, and in fact will try my best to convert those who are to Christiantiy.
As for the way of action, yes it does. But I was talking about Pascal's Wager and it's application of a Christain life versus a non-Christian life and the fact that a good life in Christianity gets you to paradise/enlightenment/etc in other religions. The portion you quoted is discussing Hinduism's way to salvation (more accuratly getting out of the reincarnation cycle) and how a Christian life applies to them. And again, the final quote is dealing with the same.
As for Matt having made up his mind, he's a Christian apologist. The same as discussions I have with people of other religions, I know that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. I will not change my mind on this. now doctrinal issues within Christianity, I will change my mind on based upon the Bible, but I won't become Muslim, and in fact will try my best to convert those who are to Christiantiy.
As for the way of action, yes it does. But I was talking about Pascal's Wager and it's application of a Christain life versus a non-Christian life and the fact that a good life in Christianity gets you to paradise/enlightenment/etc in other religions. The portion you quoted is discussing Hinduism's way to salvation (more accuratly getting out of the reincarnation cycle) and how a Christian life applies to them. And again, the final quote is dealing with the same.
No, I don't believe in God.[b said:
But, here's my beef with it.
We support Israel. We have Christian leadership. There are many ways God could have stopped the planes. Perhaps they are modern iron chariots?
If God existed, I see three possibilities:
1-He chose to punish us.
2-He chose to do nothing.
3-He was unable to stop it.
If we are a nation blessed by God, which would be a better sign? Stopping it or not?
If we are supposed to be punished? Why? (and be careful if you choose this one...the slope here is slippery.)
Look, this was not a Christian slipping and breaking his arm. This was a major terrorist attack by people who believe that this country is a bastion of evil.
And why could God not stop every bad thing from happening to Christians? That would be a very impressive sign...
Kidan
Moderator
first off, why would we be a blessed nation? we're not Isreal. We don't even truly equate ourself as a Christian nation anymore.
but again I say, what happens does not matter. What matters is how we react to what happens.
As for why God doesn't stop every bad thing from happening? it's simple, without bad things happening, we are not tested. we don't grow. if we never had to step out in faith, if we never are pushed, we stagnate and decay. Without bad things, we do not learn about good things.
but again I say, what happens does not matter. What matters is how we react to what happens.
As for why God doesn't stop every bad thing from happening? it's simple, without bad things happening, we are not tested. we don't grow. if we never had to step out in faith, if we never are pushed, we stagnate and decay. Without bad things, we do not learn about good things.
Kidan I read it as Abdul saying it is up to God meaning that Abdul, being a human and not God, doesn't know the will of God, just as you don't know the future neither does Abdul, this seems to me as the same as asking a Catholic the same question ...[b said:
And I wouldn't ask Matt to convert to Islam (1) b/c being a Christian I know that Jesus is the way to Heaven and (2) well there is no need for (2)
The verse I was referring to, I must have read it wrong or something. Don't remember it correctly, and I now think it was another verse I was thinking of that says something different... ER! Yes, uh in point, there probably isn't such a verse so, yeah.. my bad!
Anyways...I agree with kidan.
Here's my interpretation:
I wouldn't be as dependant on God, and wouldn't pray as much for help and guidance in what to do. Soon I would become concieted and arrogant. I would adopt the attitude of "Oh, since I'm a christian, I'm impervious to anything and can do anything I want without fear of hurt". This wouldn't be a very good relationship to have with my benefactor...
Note that this is strictly my personal opinion, and what I would probably do...
Anyways...I agree with kidan.
Here's my interpretation:
I wouldn't be as dependant on God, and wouldn't pray as much for help and guidance in what to do. Soon I would become concieted and arrogant. I would adopt the attitude of "Oh, since I'm a christian, I'm impervious to anything and can do anything I want without fear of hurt". This wouldn't be a very good relationship to have with my benefactor...
Note that this is strictly my personal opinion, and what I would probably do...
I'm too lazy to look it up right now. There's a passage, I believe in Revelations, that says something to the effect that nations that turn against Israel will be smote and those that aren't will be blessed (IIRC). Does my memory fail me?[b said:
I can argue that for a rather long time (up to the first "red scare") we were not a Christian nation. "under God" was added to the pledge in the 1950's...In God We Trust was added to our coins in the 20th century. This was in response to the "atheist commies."
Regardless, people run around saying we are a nation blessed by God...let's put the 10C up on the walls and all that other stuff.
Regardless of my own beliefs, this scares me. I *think* I have demonstrated that I do know Christianity and the Bible well. If Pat Robertson took over, I could blend.
The question is...do you think that I should have to? Do you think that Omar should not be allowed to worship Allah?
There are atheists that fight many things. There are some things I am against, but part of it is because it can cut both ways. (I will detail this if anyone wants to hear my rant on why school sponsored prayer is a foolish idea.) Bottom line is...the 10 commandments don't scare me...but Judge Roy's attitudes do.
One of the reasons the US has had so few problems with religion is because we are free to worship Jehovah, Jesus, Allah, Shiva, Thor, Zeus...or not worship if we so choose. I would not shoot anyone for believing that Jesus came and died and rose again. I believe that no one here would shoot me for not believing that. However, there are other "Christians" that I would not be so sure about.
9-11.
My intent was not to say "where was God?"
My intent was to suggest that Allah could use it as an excuse to send you to Muslim Hell.
That was all.
Anyway...hope my rant wasn't too boring.
