Watcher
New Member
No Timor, you have it backwards as the burden of proof is on you, the skeptic.
Is the BIBLE true? and what does this board think?
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TastyWheat
New Member
It's funny...I've been thinking about how much we debate about these things, and how old all these arguments must be. I mean, Christianity has survived for about 2000 years. Now, with the exception of the establishment of the Imperial Church by Constantine, Christianity has pretty much come under attack by every group, and has split off into many sects...Pelagians (who thought people could live sinless lives because, according to Pelagius, there's no such thing as original sin; kind of a prehistoric "tabula rasa" if you will, just to clarify from Leo's earlier post), Donatists, Montanists, Appolinarians, Gnostics, Ebionites, Docetists, Nestorians, Eutychians,... and the list goes on and on.
There were the original Jews that debated the validity of Jesus being the Christ; there were the persecutions under Decius et al. because Christians were supposedly cannibals and athiests (because they worshipped an invisible God); there was the blatant attack of organized religion and the belief in Jesus as the Christ during the Age of Reason (Paine, Jefferson, etc.) and the Romantic period (Emerson, Thoreau, etc.); Existentialists like Sartre think they had all the answers; there are even those who now refute Christ because they think they've discovered stuff that no one has ever thought of.
To quote from a book of the Bible (Ecclesiastes), which most of you will probably disregard, "There is nothing new under the sun." Even empirical reasoning might lead you to that, who knows. Yet a lot Christians profess a faith in a personal God that they've felt and seen works of...it's amazing how some people today can even have the same degree of faith as the Apostles, who walked with, talked with, and wrote about Jesus, even though they can't reach out and touch his scarred hands...
Just a thought...
There were the original Jews that debated the validity of Jesus being the Christ; there were the persecutions under Decius et al. because Christians were supposedly cannibals and athiests (because they worshipped an invisible God); there was the blatant attack of organized religion and the belief in Jesus as the Christ during the Age of Reason (Paine, Jefferson, etc.) and the Romantic period (Emerson, Thoreau, etc.); Existentialists like Sartre think they had all the answers; there are even those who now refute Christ because they think they've discovered stuff that no one has ever thought of.
To quote from a book of the Bible (Ecclesiastes), which most of you will probably disregard, "There is nothing new under the sun." Even empirical reasoning might lead you to that, who knows. Yet a lot Christians profess a faith in a personal God that they've felt and seen works of...it's amazing how some people today can even have the same degree of faith as the Apostles, who walked with, talked with, and wrote about Jesus, even though they can't reach out and touch his scarred hands...
Just a thought...
You're right, tasty. However, the fact that these debates have existed for so long, and the fact that Christianity has survived thus far, does not make it true - argumentum ad antiquitatum.
Watcher, it really isn't. You're the one making extraordinary claims. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Still, I'll offer something to chew on. I'm sure you all will exhibit incredible rationalization here, but if you're honest with yourself, I really don't see how you can believe this *not* to be a conflict. Of course, if one of you makes a sensical argument, I'll be very impressed
John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
That's Jesus speaking. To be more exact, that's Jesus lying, or speaking from ignorance (I certainly doubt Jesus would not know about Elijah, though).
2 Kings 2:11"...behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."
Elijah ascended into heaven. Notice, he did not just disappear, he did not die, he ascended into heaven. But wait, didn't Jesus claim to be the only one to do that?
Watcher, it really isn't. You're the one making extraordinary claims. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Still, I'll offer something to chew on. I'm sure you all will exhibit incredible rationalization here, but if you're honest with yourself, I really don't see how you can believe this *not* to be a conflict. Of course, if one of you makes a sensical argument, I'll be very impressed
John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
That's Jesus speaking. To be more exact, that's Jesus lying, or speaking from ignorance (I certainly doubt Jesus would not know about Elijah, though).
2 Kings 2:11"...behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."
Elijah ascended into heaven. Notice, he did not just disappear, he did not die, he ascended into heaven. But wait, didn't Jesus claim to be the only one to do that?
TastyWheat
New Member
Well...there is something interesting there. However, you have to apply exegesis to both passages. In the 2 Kings passage, the word for Elijah being taken up to heaven is passive (hence, being taken). The word used in John is quite active; Jesus ascended to heaven by His power. Pretty cool stuff. One day I'm gonna find a way to paste Greek onto these forums so you guys can see the words lol.
Wow. That is extremely evasive. It is also the most logical explanation I've heard for it, I must admit.
However, when you ascend in an elevator, are you ascending by your own power? Actually, ascend can only be used actively, I believe. I don't see how you can "be ascended".
That almost cut the cake. =\ NT though, really (no sarcasm)
However, when you ascend in an elevator, are you ascending by your own power? Actually, ascend can only be used actively, I believe. I don't see how you can "be ascended".
That almost cut the cake. =\ NT though, really (no sarcasm)
There is no contradiction. Jesus was most definatly talking about who has the authority to discuss matters of heavanly things. The verses before 3:13 set the context. Just taking John 3:13 without context is what sets up an appearant contradiction, even though none exists.
An eyewitness to Heavanly matters would be able to discuss, or testify to or about them. So, somebody who is in heavan, who has come to earth to discuss such matters would have authority. Certainly, both Enoch (who was not mentioned before) and Elijah have ascended to heavan. Neither have returned to testify what they have seen.
Edit: John 3:13 is quite correct, none have ascended to heavan and then returned to discuss heavenly matters, except Jesus, who has always been in heavan. He descended to discuss such matters.
An eyewitness to Heavanly matters would be able to discuss, or testify to or about them. So, somebody who is in heavan, who has come to earth to discuss such matters would have authority. Certainly, both Enoch (who was not mentioned before) and Elijah have ascended to heavan. Neither have returned to testify what they have seen.
Edit: John 3:13 is quite correct, none have ascended to heavan and then returned to discuss heavenly matters, except Jesus, who has always been in heavan. He descended to discuss such matters.
OK...if Jesus was in Heaven, and came down, he descended. But he did not descend, he was born.[b said:
Like wise, after he died, his spirit descended into hades/hell/ghenna/abraham's bosom and allowed them to enter heaven (IIRC, it never said he himself went up to heaven/paradise at that point).
His spirit re-entered his body (or so I assume that is what happened), and he rose from the dead.
After showing off his wounds and telling everyone he would be back, really, really soon, he ascended into heaven.
I fail to see how Jesus ascended and then returned. He started off there. He was not on earth to begin with. I mean, he is, if you want to count omnipresence...but then that would be moot.
*nevermind*
First, ground rules:
1. Jesus = God = Holy Spirit = Jesus (Trinity)
2. Jesus has always been in existance.
The entire passage is a discussion on:
1. You (Nicodemus at that time, us today) don't believe me (Jesus) when I discuss earthly matters,
2. If you don't believe me when I discuss earthly matters, how is it that you will belive me when I discuss heavanly matters,
3. The only people who can speak of heavanly matters are those who have gone there and returned, or are from there and have come to you,
4. None have gone there and have subsequently returned,
5. I (Jesus) am from there and have come to you.
1. Jesus = God = Holy Spirit = Jesus (Trinity)
2. Jesus has always been in existance.
The entire passage is a discussion on:
1. You (Nicodemus at that time, us today) don't believe me (Jesus) when I discuss earthly matters,
2. If you don't believe me when I discuss earthly matters, how is it that you will belive me when I discuss heavanly matters,
3. The only people who can speak of heavanly matters are those who have gone there and returned, or are from there and have come to you,
4. None have gone there and have subsequently returned,
5. I (Jesus) am from there and have come to you.
TastyWheat
New Member
Exactly[b said:
G
Guest
Guest
Dear Timor,[b said:
I'm glad "Prots" is catching on.
Anyway, Timor, you're holding out for a Personal Revelation discounts everything that the Mass Media and the Age of Information can do for you. Yes, the Mass Media is Anti-Church, but the entire History of Our Lady in the Church has been one of Her taking for Herself whatever She wants. Our Lady was able to Christianize the Pagan Institutions of Europe, and She will be able to Christianize the Mass Media.
Now, I won't preclude the possibility that you might receive a Personal Revelation. But even if you do -- will you believe your own sanity? Will you discredit yourself the same way you now discredit others. Wouldn't a good Atheist report immediately to the Psychiatric Ward after having a Vision of God?
G
Guest
Guest
Dear Big J,[b said:
Its a funny thing. From the 11th to the 13th Century Christendom was in its Full Flower. But even Saint Bernard lived to see pride rise in the likes of Abelard. Luxury and corruption began to creep in. By the 14th Century we had perhaps one of the Greatest Saints in History who called himself the Angel of Judgment from Revelations 14 -- Vincent Ferrer. Then there was the Black Plague. Then the Satanic Reformation and the collapse of Christendom. Protestantism fights Catholicism from without, while Free Masonry fights Catholicism from the very bosum of Catholic Countries.
Catholicism is in retreat. I hear it is still a force South of the Danube. For the first time Catholic Ireland is under serious attack by what appears to be a secularized majority. Spain survived only because the Military was Catholic. Portugal was saved by a Miracle (Fatima).
I think that people have been convinced by the propaganda -- that their ancestors were superstitious nitwitts too stupid to be trustworthy.
Christ prophecized that Wide would be the Way that would lead to Destruction. Christendom had a few good Centuries. Now, individuality and selfishness are simply all pervasive. Even in shows like Star Trek, Individuality and Selfishness are presented as virtues, while Collective Obedience is presented as the Absolute Evil - the Borg with their Death Pallor. When 99.9% of our society see Greed as Good, and when even the people who call themselves Religious are only looking to see what is in it for them (are you "saved"?) then it is simply that overwhelming Victory of the Antichrist which as been prophecized.
Your point is well taken. Europe is lost. Even in Catholic countries the Protestant Propaganda has been successful enough where even Catholics are talking that 'born again' crap, and no longer do penance.
Honestly, I wish I could trade Catholics one for one with Muslims. Now, those people are Religious!
Prophecy says that the World will turn around, but, unfortunately it would be in terms of the few survivors coming out of the meat grinder as Good Catholics. It is one of those things were tribulations and suffering cause people to turn to God. It makes me think of what some Prot from another page just told me -- that Salvation by Faith Alone must be true because Jesus said the Thief on the Cross would be Saved. They can be so stupid! I said "Duh! That Man was being Crucified! Whatever the Sin, there can be Repetance and Atonement, ... especially if you are willing to be Crucified. Can you imagine some stupid Prot thinking that some guy who was being crucified was somehow being Saved by Faith Alone? Anyway, the World may be Saved by Crucifixion.
Good Question.
CCGR
Member
I hear that the US is twenty years behind Europe culturally...I also hear that the US is one of the top countires Receiving missionaries
Malohaut
Moderator
Just some old notes I had gathered once in regards to the validity of the bible:
The evidence includes: Jesus being seen by over 500 eyewitnesses; an empty tomb; Jesus' disciples would not change their story in the face of execution; the birth of the Church; Sunday became the day of worship to celebrate the resurrection; and Jesus was from then on worshiped as God.
Flavius Josephus (c.a. 37-97 A.D.) Jewish Historian, Antiquities 18:3 "He (Jesus) was the Christ...He appeared to them alive on the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other things concerning him."
over 25,000 sites have been discovered that have connection to the Old Testament period. Not only have these discoveries provided external confirmation to hundreds of scriptural assertions, not one archaeological discovery has ever contradicted a biblical reference. Discovered in 1947 at Qumran the dead sea scrolls confirm the reliability of the biblical text. These scrolls, dating from 3rd century B.C. to 1st century A.D., are the earliest copies of Old Testament books. Their predicated and fulfilled prophecies provide evidence for the divine origin of the Bible.
mari Tablets Over 20,000 cuneiform tablets, many explain the patriarchal traditions of Genesis.
Ebla Tablets Over 20,000 tablets, many containing law similar to the Deuteronomy law code.
Temple Walls Karnak, Egypt Signifies a tenth century B.C. reference to Abraham.
Gedaliah Seal Gedaliah is spoken of in 2 Kings 25:22
Lachish Letters Describes Nebuchadnezzar's invasion of Judah.
Cyrus Cylinder Authenticates Cyrus' decree to allow the Jews to rebuild the temple in jerusalem.
Moabite Stone Given information about Omri, the sixth king of Israel.
Taylor Prism Assyrian account of Sennacherib's attack on jerusalem during Hezekiah's reign.
Jesus' miracles were performed in the open and served to validate his claims. Jesus healed the sick, gave sight to the blind, fed thousands of people from a handful of food, demonstrated power over nature and even raised the dead. No first century eyewitness ever denied Jesus' ability to do miracles.
Babylonian Sanhedrin 43a (c.a. A.D. 100-500) The Talmud acknowledges Jesus' ability to do miracles and attributes this ability to socery. The Jewish authorities in Jesus' day did not deny that jesus performed signs (matthew 9:34; 12:24; Mark 3:22) but attributed them to the power of satan.
The Old Testament contains over 2,000 predictive prophecies which are very specific and detailed. In Jesus Christ, 456 identifiable messianic prophecies were fulfilled. The chances of anyone fulfilling just 48 prophecies is a probability of 10^157th power. According to Borel's single law of chance, anything beyond 10^50th power is impossible. This clearly indicates that a supernatural agent was involved.
Thallus, Historian 3rd Book of histories (52 A.D.) Thallus recorded the darkness (speculated as a solar eclipse) which occurred during the crucifixion of Jesus. The darkness was prophesied in Amos 8:9 and recorded by Matthew's gospel in chapter 27 verse 45.
Prophecies about Jesus
Virgin conception Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:22-23
Birth in Bethlehem Micah 5:2, Luke 2:4-11
Descendant of Abraham Genesis 12:1-3, Matthew 1:1
Miracles Isaiah 35:5-6, Matthew 9:35
Temple cleansing Malachi 3:1, matthew 21:12
Jewish rejection Psalm 118:22, 1 Peter 2:7
Ascension Psalm 68:18, Acts 1:9
Crucified with thieves Isaiah 53:12, Luke 23:33
Side would be pierced Zechariah 12:10, John 19:34
Burial in rich man's tomb Isaiah 53:9, Matthew 27:57-60
Hands and feet pierced Psalm 22:16, Luke 23:33
Betrayed by disciple Psalm 41:9, Matthew 26:14-15
No bones broken psalm 34:20, john 19:33-36
No corruption of flesh Psalm 16:8-10, Acts 2:31
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) asked this same question. Pascal was a French mathematician scientist and philosopher. He contended that reason alone cannot prove conclusively that God and immortality exist. Either God is who He says He is, or not. Pascal offered the following wager to the people of his culture. "In the game of life, you have two choices:
1. Accept God. If you win, you win everything. If you lose, you lose nothing.
2. Reject God. If you win, you win nothing. If you lose, you lose everything.
You can only pick one choice for your life.
The evidence includes: Jesus being seen by over 500 eyewitnesses; an empty tomb; Jesus' disciples would not change their story in the face of execution; the birth of the Church; Sunday became the day of worship to celebrate the resurrection; and Jesus was from then on worshiped as God.
Flavius Josephus (c.a. 37-97 A.D.) Jewish Historian, Antiquities 18:3 "He (Jesus) was the Christ...He appeared to them alive on the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other things concerning him."
over 25,000 sites have been discovered that have connection to the Old Testament period. Not only have these discoveries provided external confirmation to hundreds of scriptural assertions, not one archaeological discovery has ever contradicted a biblical reference. Discovered in 1947 at Qumran the dead sea scrolls confirm the reliability of the biblical text. These scrolls, dating from 3rd century B.C. to 1st century A.D., are the earliest copies of Old Testament books. Their predicated and fulfilled prophecies provide evidence for the divine origin of the Bible.
mari Tablets Over 20,000 cuneiform tablets, many explain the patriarchal traditions of Genesis.
Ebla Tablets Over 20,000 tablets, many containing law similar to the Deuteronomy law code.
Temple Walls Karnak, Egypt Signifies a tenth century B.C. reference to Abraham.
Gedaliah Seal Gedaliah is spoken of in 2 Kings 25:22
Lachish Letters Describes Nebuchadnezzar's invasion of Judah.
Cyrus Cylinder Authenticates Cyrus' decree to allow the Jews to rebuild the temple in jerusalem.
Moabite Stone Given information about Omri, the sixth king of Israel.
Taylor Prism Assyrian account of Sennacherib's attack on jerusalem during Hezekiah's reign.
Jesus' miracles were performed in the open and served to validate his claims. Jesus healed the sick, gave sight to the blind, fed thousands of people from a handful of food, demonstrated power over nature and even raised the dead. No first century eyewitness ever denied Jesus' ability to do miracles.
Babylonian Sanhedrin 43a (c.a. A.D. 100-500) The Talmud acknowledges Jesus' ability to do miracles and attributes this ability to socery. The Jewish authorities in Jesus' day did not deny that jesus performed signs (matthew 9:34; 12:24; Mark 3:22) but attributed them to the power of satan.
The Old Testament contains over 2,000 predictive prophecies which are very specific and detailed. In Jesus Christ, 456 identifiable messianic prophecies were fulfilled. The chances of anyone fulfilling just 48 prophecies is a probability of 10^157th power. According to Borel's single law of chance, anything beyond 10^50th power is impossible. This clearly indicates that a supernatural agent was involved.
Thallus, Historian 3rd Book of histories (52 A.D.) Thallus recorded the darkness (speculated as a solar eclipse) which occurred during the crucifixion of Jesus. The darkness was prophesied in Amos 8:9 and recorded by Matthew's gospel in chapter 27 verse 45.
Prophecies about Jesus
Virgin conception Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:22-23
Birth in Bethlehem Micah 5:2, Luke 2:4-11
Descendant of Abraham Genesis 12:1-3, Matthew 1:1
Miracles Isaiah 35:5-6, Matthew 9:35
Temple cleansing Malachi 3:1, matthew 21:12
Jewish rejection Psalm 118:22, 1 Peter 2:7
Ascension Psalm 68:18, Acts 1:9
Crucified with thieves Isaiah 53:12, Luke 23:33
Side would be pierced Zechariah 12:10, John 19:34
Burial in rich man's tomb Isaiah 53:9, Matthew 27:57-60
Hands and feet pierced Psalm 22:16, Luke 23:33
Betrayed by disciple Psalm 41:9, Matthew 26:14-15
No bones broken psalm 34:20, john 19:33-36
No corruption of flesh Psalm 16:8-10, Acts 2:31
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) asked this same question. Pascal was a French mathematician scientist and philosopher. He contended that reason alone cannot prove conclusively that God and immortality exist. Either God is who He says He is, or not. Pascal offered the following wager to the people of his culture. "In the game of life, you have two choices:
1. Accept God. If you win, you win everything. If you lose, you lose nothing.
2. Reject God. If you win, you win nothing. If you lose, you lose everything.
You can only pick one choice for your life.
Malohaut
Moderator
I'm guessing it may have been a wager for atheists as a first step tool to guiding them to Christ. But that's just a guess. That's a good point though.
Kidan
Moderator
BigJ --while this is true that there are more then one choice for religions, all those other religions deal in works. For salvation/enlightenment/etc, you must live a good life and then you will be judged upon your death.
Whereas in Christianity, your only work is accepting a gift freely offered, and then living a good life. Christianity (and by extension Judaism) are really the only exclusivist religions. So the choice is really, live a good Jewish/Christian life or not. According to the tenets of all other religions (or at least the dozen or so I've studied, there could be some other religion that's out there that's exclusivist.) living a good Jewish/Christian life, allows you to acheive the after-life rewards of those religions. So the only true conundrum, faced with Pascal's Wager is "who is right, the Christians or the Jews"
Whereas in Christianity, your only work is accepting a gift freely offered, and then living a good life. Christianity (and by extension Judaism) are really the only exclusivist religions. So the choice is really, live a good Jewish/Christian life or not. According to the tenets of all other religions (or at least the dozen or so I've studied, there could be some other religion that's out there that's exclusivist.) living a good Jewish/Christian life, allows you to acheive the after-life rewards of those religions. So the only true conundrum, faced with Pascal's Wager is "who is right, the Christians or the Jews"
mrpopdrinker
New Member
There is it is called islam.[b said:
Well, you have to understand that to Pascal, there were 2 choices...Roman Catholicism or Atheism.[b said:
Given the choice...then you do have nothing to lose.
BUT, given that God is all knowing, would he not know if you were simply playing the "nothing to lose?" Seems to me that those would be the "spewed" folks discussed in...I forget which gospel.
