Kidan
Moderator
of course we believe repetitive vain prayers of the sort you espouse are an abomination, we get that from Christ's teachigns.
Is Paul a False Apostle?
- Thread starter Gyllis
- Start date
G
Guest
Guest
Thaddius,
many like leo are ANTI-PAUL.
Please do not worry about them.
i have already DEFEATED leo on each and every occasion he has come before me.
Paul said he is nothing0.
Paul is nothing0.
But no man can enter into HEAVEN ON EARTH least they came by the example CHRIST JESUS SENT TO US IN PAUL. AMEN
PAUL HAD ALL FAITHE.
leo has NOT PROOF he has any at all. amen
i am nothing0 and do what JESUS said for PAUL TO have me do, i imitate Jesus by the example of Paul. amen
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA. AMEN
many like leo are ANTI-PAUL.
Please do not worry about them.
i have already DEFEATED leo on each and every occasion he has come before me.
Paul said he is nothing0.
Paul is nothing0.
But no man can enter into HEAVEN ON EARTH least they came by the example CHRIST JESUS SENT TO US IN PAUL. AMEN
PAUL HAD ALL FAITHE.
leo has NOT PROOF he has any at all. amen
i am nothing0 and do what JESUS said for PAUL TO have me do, i imitate Jesus by the example of Paul. amen
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA. AMEN
Hmm....I am sorry for being so long in posting this, for I had meant to post it as soon as I saw Leo's first reply to the scripture I mentioned, and now this topic has went out of control.
I hate to try and put someone down, but sometimes that comes out in trying to disprove someone's ideas that are lacking in truth. I have been struggling on how to approach the topic with a loving heart, but I can only come up with this.
I must agree, that Leo has many interesting ideas, but they are never backed up by scripture. In all the posts I have read of his (and granted, I have not been able to read them all, but I have ready many), there has not been one reference to actual scripture. There has been talk of "parts" of the Bible (such as Acts and Christ's crucifixion in the Gospel of John). However, no actual verses have been used. With the case of this topic, I gave one particular scripture that pointed to Paul being wise and that Peter agreed that Paul was a beloved brother in Christ.
However, only a small section of that scripture was used by Leo to back up his claims. He totally ignored the part before and after. Yes, Paul's teachings are difficult to understand, unless you are responsible enough to study them properly. Peter, right before the section that Leo uses, says Paul "was given much wisdom in these matters." If Paul was a false prophet, then would Peter agree that Paul was wise? Taking only the part where Peter says "Some things Paul writes are difficult to understand" is similar to using the straw analogy that Malohaut has given in another topic. It is totally taken out of context.
As for Acts, I am studying it. I want to find out where Leo is coming from in his ideas. But, just reading about Saul's conversion to Christianity and thus changing his name to Paul, makes me wonder why Luke would put such things in this book, if Luke believed that Paul was a false prophet. Would not Luke have totally dismissed this? I have spoke to several pastors about this version of Acts that Leo talks about, and no one remembers anything of the sort. But, I do want to study it myself. So, please give me time.
As for Holy Spirit debate (which somehow slipped into this topic), if Leo feels that Peter was wrong in many things, and that it takes such great things to receive the Holy Spirit...then I guess Jesus was wrong in His teachings. I believe I posted this scripture in another topic. Jesus says "But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regart to sin and righteousness and judgment."
Who is this Counselor?
John 14:15-17
"If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever -- the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you."
Jesus said that the Father will give us that Counselor and that he will live in us. As for who the world is...the Message version quotes it as "The godless world." It doesn't mean the people who live IN the world, but live OF the world. We all live IN the world, but we don't have to live OF it.
But on down, to further explain the Counselor....
John 14:25-26
"All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."
So Jesus speaks of this Counselor as being the Holy Spirit.
Here's another quote from Jesus...
Luke 11:11-13
"If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"
Jesus says, right there, that all we have to do is ask. There's no special abilities or works we have to do. Just ask.
So, who is wrong. The one who believes that all you have to do is ask and you will receive the Holy Spirit, or those who believe that you must be of some great stature and move mountains to receive it?
I hate to try and put someone down, but sometimes that comes out in trying to disprove someone's ideas that are lacking in truth. I have been struggling on how to approach the topic with a loving heart, but I can only come up with this.
I must agree, that Leo has many interesting ideas, but they are never backed up by scripture. In all the posts I have read of his (and granted, I have not been able to read them all, but I have ready many), there has not been one reference to actual scripture. There has been talk of "parts" of the Bible (such as Acts and Christ's crucifixion in the Gospel of John). However, no actual verses have been used. With the case of this topic, I gave one particular scripture that pointed to Paul being wise and that Peter agreed that Paul was a beloved brother in Christ.
However, only a small section of that scripture was used by Leo to back up his claims. He totally ignored the part before and after. Yes, Paul's teachings are difficult to understand, unless you are responsible enough to study them properly. Peter, right before the section that Leo uses, says Paul "was given much wisdom in these matters." If Paul was a false prophet, then would Peter agree that Paul was wise? Taking only the part where Peter says "Some things Paul writes are difficult to understand" is similar to using the straw analogy that Malohaut has given in another topic. It is totally taken out of context.
As for Acts, I am studying it. I want to find out where Leo is coming from in his ideas. But, just reading about Saul's conversion to Christianity and thus changing his name to Paul, makes me wonder why Luke would put such things in this book, if Luke believed that Paul was a false prophet. Would not Luke have totally dismissed this? I have spoke to several pastors about this version of Acts that Leo talks about, and no one remembers anything of the sort. But, I do want to study it myself. So, please give me time.
As for Holy Spirit debate (which somehow slipped into this topic), if Leo feels that Peter was wrong in many things, and that it takes such great things to receive the Holy Spirit...then I guess Jesus was wrong in His teachings. I believe I posted this scripture in another topic. Jesus says "But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regart to sin and righteousness and judgment."
Who is this Counselor?
John 14:15-17
"If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever -- the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you."
Jesus said that the Father will give us that Counselor and that he will live in us. As for who the world is...the Message version quotes it as "The godless world." It doesn't mean the people who live IN the world, but live OF the world. We all live IN the world, but we don't have to live OF it.
But on down, to further explain the Counselor....
John 14:25-26
"All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."
So Jesus speaks of this Counselor as being the Holy Spirit.
Here's another quote from Jesus...
Luke 11:11-13
"If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"
Jesus says, right there, that all we have to do is ask. There's no special abilities or works we have to do. Just ask.
So, who is wrong. The one who believes that all you have to do is ask and you will receive the Holy Spirit, or those who believe that you must be of some great stature and move mountains to receive it?
G
Guest
Guest
Dear Gyllis,
I wrote you several thousand words which I didn't have on clipboard, and the Page ate them.
Oops.
I haven't the heart to start over. We will have to discuss it all again some other time.
But a point I did not touch was your view of the Holy Spirit.
It is wonderful that there are so many promises in the Gospels regarding the Holy Spirit. I can only conclude that we all must be doing something wrong. You can believe all those words, but you have to believe them in total isolation from the Reality as we know it. The Only People who have demonstrated the actual possession of the Holy Spirit, that we know about, have been a few hundred Saints. They must have done something Right.
Apparently it takes more than mere 'asking'. maybe Jesus actually expects us to utterly surrender to the Will of God and tenaciously do His work. To suffer the sufferings of Christ. there is no evidence that the Holy Spirit has ever descended upon the Half-Assed. And every Christian with practically no exception -- one in a million -- is entirely Half-Assed. We will see no Holy Spirit when this is the best we can do.
Now I do have a secondary consideration about the Holy Spirit. It may take more than it gives. Remember, Christ said that He is the Vine and we are the little leaves and branches. Leaves and branches give strength to the Vine. It has always been understood by the Higher Religions that no Providence can be expected from God without Sacrifice. Our Lady has said that the Fund of Grace is payed for by the Penance of Believers. So, if there is a Holy Spirit within us, perhaps it is there carrying our Penances to Heaven -- storing them away as capital or a surplus energy that will be required by the Miracles of the approaching End Times.
The Most Powerful Saint who had ever walked the Earth -- Saint Vincent Ferrer -- thousands of miracles a day, and twice that on Sundays. He had a troupe of Penitents who followed him from town to town -- 10,000 of them. Whipping themselves with iron barbed and broken glass whippets. Fasting and praying practically all the time. Think about it. Would Vincent's Miracles have been possible without the huge Dynamo of Penance that supported him? Maybe that is the Holy Spirit.
But Protestants don't believe in Penance. Maybe you don't get one without the other. You don't get what you don't pay for. Quote scripture all you like about True Religion being a Free Ride -- but looking at the Real World we see that the Saints had paid dearly -- their total sacrifice was more than just a passive surrender but an active dedication to work and penance. I was going to say 'tireless', but no, they were tired all the time. they never let up. That is why God had to assuage them with the Holy Spirit -- because they used up themselves and needed something MORE.
I wrote you several thousand words which I didn't have on clipboard, and the Page ate them.
Oops.
I haven't the heart to start over. We will have to discuss it all again some other time.
But a point I did not touch was your view of the Holy Spirit.
It is wonderful that there are so many promises in the Gospels regarding the Holy Spirit. I can only conclude that we all must be doing something wrong. You can believe all those words, but you have to believe them in total isolation from the Reality as we know it. The Only People who have demonstrated the actual possession of the Holy Spirit, that we know about, have been a few hundred Saints. They must have done something Right.
Apparently it takes more than mere 'asking'. maybe Jesus actually expects us to utterly surrender to the Will of God and tenaciously do His work. To suffer the sufferings of Christ. there is no evidence that the Holy Spirit has ever descended upon the Half-Assed. And every Christian with practically no exception -- one in a million -- is entirely Half-Assed. We will see no Holy Spirit when this is the best we can do.
Now I do have a secondary consideration about the Holy Spirit. It may take more than it gives. Remember, Christ said that He is the Vine and we are the little leaves and branches. Leaves and branches give strength to the Vine. It has always been understood by the Higher Religions that no Providence can be expected from God without Sacrifice. Our Lady has said that the Fund of Grace is payed for by the Penance of Believers. So, if there is a Holy Spirit within us, perhaps it is there carrying our Penances to Heaven -- storing them away as capital or a surplus energy that will be required by the Miracles of the approaching End Times.
The Most Powerful Saint who had ever walked the Earth -- Saint Vincent Ferrer -- thousands of miracles a day, and twice that on Sundays. He had a troupe of Penitents who followed him from town to town -- 10,000 of them. Whipping themselves with iron barbed and broken glass whippets. Fasting and praying practically all the time. Think about it. Would Vincent's Miracles have been possible without the huge Dynamo of Penance that supported him? Maybe that is the Holy Spirit.
But Protestants don't believe in Penance. Maybe you don't get one without the other. You don't get what you don't pay for. Quote scripture all you like about True Religion being a Free Ride -- but looking at the Real World we see that the Saints had paid dearly -- their total sacrifice was more than just a passive surrender but an active dedication to work and penance. I was going to say 'tireless', but no, they were tired all the time. they never let up. That is why God had to assuage them with the Holy Spirit -- because they used up themselves and needed something MORE.
Leo,
You have made some interesting points. Many people who accept Christ do nothing for it. These people are promised the Kingdom of Heaven because of their faith. But, for a lot of people, that faith is small. They only have faith enough to believe that Jesus can save them, but not enough to fully do His work and fulfill their purpose in life.
However, that does not mean that the Holy Spirit does not live within them. That same Spirit is the one who convicts us of doing wrong, comforts us when we are need it, and gives us direction. But, it's up to us to listen and accept that. The Holy Spirit lives within them, but the person may tend to ignore it. I, for one, can say that I have heard the Holy Spirit speaking within me. For example, when I am being strongly tempted, the Holy Spirit lets me know that its wrong. Many times, however, I have ignored it and went on through with my sin only to feel the conviction. Jesus that that the Holy Spirit will convict us of our sins. It is only one of the many jobs that the Holy Spirit has.
Sometimes we get caught up in the idea that we must do great things to please God, but He has made each and everyone of us for His divine purpose. There are people called to do various things from working with children and youth, taking part in a food ministry of some sort, being counselors, and even those who clean the church are fulfilling God's purpose.
We are not all called to do great things and great miracles. But it's when we do our part, however big or small it may seem, when we truly see the Holy Spirit working fully within a person.
Yes, there were great people (according to our standards) throughout history that we look upon and say that they must have been filled with the Holy Spirit. But there are people who do much work for the Lord who we don't think much about. Most people don't even think about the person who cleans the church, takes care of the business and behind the scenes work, or even the person who runs the sound system until something goes wrong. We take many things for granted, including miracles.
I have looked back upon my life and have seen many miracles that only God could have accomplished, but I took them for granted at the time, or considered them luck.
So, yes, there are people who don't use the Holy Spirit fully and act out their purpose, and it seems that most Christians (sadly) are this way. But it doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit is not in them. They just aren't using it. It's like having a screwdriver or hammer and saying that I don't have them just because I don't use them much, if at all. Not to put the Holy Spirit as just a tool, but in a way it is a tool that God has given to us to use. We just don't always use it for our full potential. We can accomplish huge things (by our standards) through the Holy Spirit, if God has called us to do those things. But we can not all be like many of the well-known saints or evangelists. We all have a part in the Body of Christ.
Some parts of our physical body may seem insignificant, but without them, the body would not function properly. Sometimes we forget about some of the vital organs within us, because we don't see them, or even speak about them much. But if they were to disappear or be cut out, then we would really notice. There are many who are called to fulfill these seemingly small and insignificant roles, but they are vital to the proper function of the Body of Christ -- The Church.
By the way, a scripture from Acts that brings us back to the topic of this line of discussion.
Acts 13:9-12
"Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, 'You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind, and for a time you will be unable to see the light of the sun.'
Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand. When the proconsul saw what had happened, he believed, for he was amazed at the teaching about the Lord. "
It seems that the author of Acts agreed that even Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit. He even had the power, through the Holy Spirit, to temporarily blind someone by speaking and even led someone to the Lord in the end. Paul couldn't have been that bad if he was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Speaking of Acts, I am still studying it again, and I would like to know where I might look in the book to find the things you say that is says about Paul. You have said that Acts speaks very lowly of Paul, but I would like to know of the scriptures. Don't take this as an attack against you or your ideas, but I would like to know where you come from, so that I can investigate it myself.
Thanks
You have made some interesting points. Many people who accept Christ do nothing for it. These people are promised the Kingdom of Heaven because of their faith. But, for a lot of people, that faith is small. They only have faith enough to believe that Jesus can save them, but not enough to fully do His work and fulfill their purpose in life.
However, that does not mean that the Holy Spirit does not live within them. That same Spirit is the one who convicts us of doing wrong, comforts us when we are need it, and gives us direction. But, it's up to us to listen and accept that. The Holy Spirit lives within them, but the person may tend to ignore it. I, for one, can say that I have heard the Holy Spirit speaking within me. For example, when I am being strongly tempted, the Holy Spirit lets me know that its wrong. Many times, however, I have ignored it and went on through with my sin only to feel the conviction. Jesus that that the Holy Spirit will convict us of our sins. It is only one of the many jobs that the Holy Spirit has.
Sometimes we get caught up in the idea that we must do great things to please God, but He has made each and everyone of us for His divine purpose. There are people called to do various things from working with children and youth, taking part in a food ministry of some sort, being counselors, and even those who clean the church are fulfilling God's purpose.
We are not all called to do great things and great miracles. But it's when we do our part, however big or small it may seem, when we truly see the Holy Spirit working fully within a person.
Yes, there were great people (according to our standards) throughout history that we look upon and say that they must have been filled with the Holy Spirit. But there are people who do much work for the Lord who we don't think much about. Most people don't even think about the person who cleans the church, takes care of the business and behind the scenes work, or even the person who runs the sound system until something goes wrong. We take many things for granted, including miracles.
I have looked back upon my life and have seen many miracles that only God could have accomplished, but I took them for granted at the time, or considered them luck.
So, yes, there are people who don't use the Holy Spirit fully and act out their purpose, and it seems that most Christians (sadly) are this way. But it doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit is not in them. They just aren't using it. It's like having a screwdriver or hammer and saying that I don't have them just because I don't use them much, if at all. Not to put the Holy Spirit as just a tool, but in a way it is a tool that God has given to us to use. We just don't always use it for our full potential. We can accomplish huge things (by our standards) through the Holy Spirit, if God has called us to do those things. But we can not all be like many of the well-known saints or evangelists. We all have a part in the Body of Christ.
Some parts of our physical body may seem insignificant, but without them, the body would not function properly. Sometimes we forget about some of the vital organs within us, because we don't see them, or even speak about them much. But if they were to disappear or be cut out, then we would really notice. There are many who are called to fulfill these seemingly small and insignificant roles, but they are vital to the proper function of the Body of Christ -- The Church.
By the way, a scripture from Acts that brings us back to the topic of this line of discussion.
Acts 13:9-12
"Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, 'You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind, and for a time you will be unable to see the light of the sun.'
Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand. When the proconsul saw what had happened, he believed, for he was amazed at the teaching about the Lord. "
It seems that the author of Acts agreed that even Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit. He even had the power, through the Holy Spirit, to temporarily blind someone by speaking and even led someone to the Lord in the end. Paul couldn't have been that bad if he was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Speaking of Acts, I am still studying it again, and I would like to know where I might look in the book to find the things you say that is says about Paul. You have said that Acts speaks very lowly of Paul, but I would like to know of the scriptures. Don't take this as an attack against you or your ideas, but I would like to know where you come from, so that I can investigate it myself.
Thanks
G
Guest
Guest
Dear Gyllis,[b said:
I think that many Christians confuse the Holy Spirit with their Spiritual Conscience. Every person has what you describe. Many of the Higher Religions have discerned much Moral Truth on this alone -- their Spiritual Conscience. It is not the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Most Holy Trinity. The Holy Spirit is not the thing that makes us look both ways when crossing the street and tells us not to steal candy from a baby. Everyone has that. I can't think that I know of more than 30 Saints in all of Human History who have had the Holy Spirit (though I concede that many have simply never blipped up onto the Radar Screen of Worldly Fame).
The "most of us are called upon to only write checks for Paul's ministry"... and to do ordinary things... is Paulian Doctrine. The Key to understanding Paul is that everything he says is somehow a distraction, a temptation, or a positive evil. When Paul tells you to 'relax, its okay' -- its time to redouble your efforts. It would be best to do everything your human endurance will allow. I wish more Protestants knew how much Our Lady is begging us for Penance that She can use in Her War against Satan. to miss a meal -- a simple one meal fast -- or to say the Rosary ... these penances, small enough from each of us, if multiplied by the millions could give the Heavens the Powers needed for the necessary Providence to defeat Satan. But we can have nothing without Sacrifice. Christ taught us that, didn't he? It takes Paul to make us forget that, but we should forget Him.
I do appreciate what you say about how we all can't be Great. This is very important. Saint Gertrude the Great (which is said only to distinguish her from the other gertudes) taught that the greatest virtue, paradoxically, is humility. We must be able to fall into our place without shoving to get to the front of the line -- Heaven will not work otherwise. I myself have seen my seat on the Train of Mary's entourage -- #231. At one of the Table of Saints after the Day of Judgment I am a 'squeeze in' seated 23rd at a table of 17 (the Angel told me that three more plates would be set at each end of the table). It is a good sign that at the Day of Judgment there will be more guests then they had originally planned for. We can't all be the Greatest. Nor should we want to be. If you read the Lives of the Saints, you will see that the Greatest simply suffered more. Their Reward will be Great in Heaven. But for us to attain such a thing our Pain would have to be NOW. I don't know about you but I am squeamish about such things. Most men are. Of the Stigmatic Saints more than 9 out of 10 have been Women. They have a greater discernment for the need to suffer in sympathy to the Suffering of Christ.
No, you have to read Acts with some discernment. Luke was laying out the facts. You have to remember that he was writing for a Church where Paul had in effect taken over control. He could not give an opinionated statement. He laid out the facts in a way where they would still survive scrutiny and be published. Take your story of Elymas. The man was a Jew. Christ had visited Cyprus and had created a huge following. There was a large Jewish Community on Cyprus. Paul, as we know was out to destroy the Law and the Jewish Christian Church. Luke tells us that he had Elymas beat up and blinded in order to intimidate the Jewish Christian Community in Cyprus. How will we know a False Prophet? A wolf in sheeps clothing who brings forth bad fruit. How is Paul using fascist tactics in Cyprus a vindication of the Holy Spirit? You need to really see what you are saying. Would allow me the Holy Spirit if I were to practically beat people to death, and blind them? I think you would think just the opposite! And even if Paul did his work through demonic curse, and not through simple brute violence -- does not the Scripture say that the Antichrist will have Supernatural Power. Many will believe in the Antichrist for his Miracles, but they will be a dark fruit. Destroying an old Jew because he was upholding The Law isn't exactly like healing lepars or multiplying the loaves, is it?
Let me hit the send button on this post before I lose it (like the beautiful post that got eaten yesterday) and then I will look up those Acts quotes for you.
G
Guest
Guest
Dear Gyllis,
I am glad I went scripture hunting for you. The Sell Out of the Church occurs in Acts 15. I had been saying that Peter told Paul he could teach whatever he wanted as long as he paid his dues. That is not in Acts 15, but I interpolated it from Galatians 2 where Paul tells the Story and admits that he bought off the Church of Jerusalem. He talks that they divied up the Church -- that there would be the Church of the Gentiles and the Church of the Circumcized.
I am glad I went scripture hunting for you. The Sell Out of the Church occurs in Acts 15. I had been saying that Peter told Paul he could teach whatever he wanted as long as he paid his dues. That is not in Acts 15, but I interpolated it from Galatians 2 where Paul tells the Story and admits that he bought off the Church of Jerusalem. He talks that they divied up the Church -- that there would be the Church of the Gentiles and the Church of the Circumcized.
Leo,
I know I can never convince you to change your thoughts. It was never my intention in the first place. My intention is to put out the truth, and so far I have done so. Every scripture that I have put up, you have twisted, thrown out parts and added your own. Other people on these forums have seen it. When Peter says that Paul had wisdom...you ignored that point. When Luke (in the Acts scripture I mentioned) said that Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit, you ignored that as well. Then you added that Luke said that Paul beat the man. I have never heard of or read this before. And as for who Elymas was, and if he deserved his punishment, you must read the verses before that mention Elymas as a sorceror. Maybe he was a Jew, but he had fallen into sorcery, not the work of God.
I have read Acts, and after reading some of your posts about where Paul contradicts himself about his conversion experience, I have looked those scriptures up. You said that there was a contradiction between the conversion experience that Luke mentions in Acts 9 and when Paul describes it in Acts 23 (which is actually in Acts 22 by the way).
Here is what you said...
"Why do you think Luke tells us that Paul gave two different versions of his conversion story -- chapters 8 or 9 and then Chapter 23 -- one story with witnesses, and the later story where he could no longer claim any witnesses."
Here is what Luke says of Paul's experience on the road to Damascus:
Acts 9:3-9
As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"
And he said, "Who are You, Lord?"
Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads."
So he, trembling and astonished, said, "Lord, what do You want me to do?"
Then the Lord said to him, "Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."
And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.
But here is what Paul says in Acts 22: 6-11
"Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me. And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?' So I answered, "Who are You, Lord?' And He said to me, "I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.'
"And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid, but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me. So I said, "What shall I do, Lord?' And the Lord said to me, "Arise and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all things which are appointed for you to do.' And since I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of those who were with me, I came into Damascus.
To me, I see no difference in the two stories. Maybe you have a different version of Acts that no one else has, or at least that I don't have.
I'm not doing this to try and convince you, but to let others see the scriptures as they are written. I do my best to add nothing or take anything away that is not backed up by scripture. I'll admit that I may have went to far as to speculate that Paul used the Holy Spirit to make Elymas blind, but I knew that Luke had said he was filled with the Holy Spirit, and that that Spirit is also how God works through us to do such miracles.
This is all I have, for now. Since this is a topic about Paul, I will not even get into the ideas of Mary, right now, if I ever do, except to say that as far as I know that Revelations 12 has nothing to do with Mary. It was once speculated that it was Mary, but has since been dismissed. When and if I get around to researching this, I will post my findings. I will not guarantee that this is true until I have researched it myself and find reason to dismiss or accept your claim.
Farewell, for now, Leo. I will be praying, as I have been, that the truth will come out. Whether it be your ideas, mine, or others.
I know I can never convince you to change your thoughts. It was never my intention in the first place. My intention is to put out the truth, and so far I have done so. Every scripture that I have put up, you have twisted, thrown out parts and added your own. Other people on these forums have seen it. When Peter says that Paul had wisdom...you ignored that point. When Luke (in the Acts scripture I mentioned) said that Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit, you ignored that as well. Then you added that Luke said that Paul beat the man. I have never heard of or read this before. And as for who Elymas was, and if he deserved his punishment, you must read the verses before that mention Elymas as a sorceror. Maybe he was a Jew, but he had fallen into sorcery, not the work of God.
I have read Acts, and after reading some of your posts about where Paul contradicts himself about his conversion experience, I have looked those scriptures up. You said that there was a contradiction between the conversion experience that Luke mentions in Acts 9 and when Paul describes it in Acts 23 (which is actually in Acts 22 by the way).
Here is what you said...
"Why do you think Luke tells us that Paul gave two different versions of his conversion story -- chapters 8 or 9 and then Chapter 23 -- one story with witnesses, and the later story where he could no longer claim any witnesses."
Here is what Luke says of Paul's experience on the road to Damascus:
Acts 9:3-9
As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"
And he said, "Who are You, Lord?"
Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads."
So he, trembling and astonished, said, "Lord, what do You want me to do?"
Then the Lord said to him, "Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."
And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.
But here is what Paul says in Acts 22: 6-11
"Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me. And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?' So I answered, "Who are You, Lord?' And He said to me, "I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.'
"And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid, but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me. So I said, "What shall I do, Lord?' And the Lord said to me, "Arise and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all things which are appointed for you to do.' And since I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of those who were with me, I came into Damascus.
To me, I see no difference in the two stories. Maybe you have a different version of Acts that no one else has, or at least that I don't have.
I'm not doing this to try and convince you, but to let others see the scriptures as they are written. I do my best to add nothing or take anything away that is not backed up by scripture. I'll admit that I may have went to far as to speculate that Paul used the Holy Spirit to make Elymas blind, but I knew that Luke had said he was filled with the Holy Spirit, and that that Spirit is also how God works through us to do such miracles.
This is all I have, for now. Since this is a topic about Paul, I will not even get into the ideas of Mary, right now, if I ever do, except to say that as far as I know that Revelations 12 has nothing to do with Mary. It was once speculated that it was Mary, but has since been dismissed. When and if I get around to researching this, I will post my findings. I will not guarantee that this is true until I have researched it myself and find reason to dismiss or accept your claim.
Farewell, for now, Leo. I will be praying, as I have been, that the truth will come out. Whether it be your ideas, mine, or others.
G
Guest
Guest
Dear Gyllis,
The Way a Good Intellectual Model of a Universe Works is that after you live a long life with multifarious experiences (and being well read does not hurt) you can discern recurrent patterns and categorize types by their behavior. The reason Experience is necessary is because in all Human Affairs you must learn to separate words from deeds. At first you will accept what people say -- that such are their reasons for the goals they wish to achieve. But after awhile you see that some words never mean what they say, and actions go in unannounced directions.
So you criticize me for looking at Scriptures and understanding them. Is that not what we are to do here. In each post I explain my reasonings. Afterall, if you were right then we would be living in a perfect world replete with the Holy Spirit and without Sin. So, obviously, your vision does not add up. I am only trying to explain why.
The Way a Good Intellectual Model of a Universe Works is that after you live a long life with multifarious experiences (and being well read does not hurt) you can discern recurrent patterns and categorize types by their behavior. The reason Experience is necessary is because in all Human Affairs you must learn to separate words from deeds. At first you will accept what people say -- that such are their reasons for the goals they wish to achieve. But after awhile you see that some words never mean what they say, and actions go in unannounced directions.
So you criticize me for looking at Scriptures and understanding them. Is that not what we are to do here. In each post I explain my reasonings. Afterall, if you were right then we would be living in a perfect world replete with the Holy Spirit and without Sin. So, obviously, your vision does not add up. I am only trying to explain why.
I had thought about not replying, but you say that I criticize you for looking at Scriptures and understanding them? When in fact you are wrong. I have pointed out scripture...even posted those scriptures for everyone to read. My point, and I know others who agree, is that you don't look at scriptures. If you do, you surely don't read them. If scripture did back up your claims then you would not be so afraid to post those scriptures. You explain your reasonings, but they aren't scripturally accurate or at least backed up. You claim that certain books or sections of scripture back up your ideas, but you refuse to post them. Those that you have mentioned, I have read and posted my findings, therefore backing up what I say. Again, I say nothing more than what scripture says. Many people have asked for you to back up your ideas with scripture but you refuse. I will let you believe what you want. I am not going to force change on you. But the reason you gain so much criticism is that you never back up your claims.
You can say that I am biased. But I will tell you that after reading your posts I went into reading Acts on the brink of believing you. I thought..."What if there was something I missed." But all I could find was the opposite of what you claimed. Not a misunderstanding, but word-for-word documentation from Luke telling just the opposite. I posted those words written by Luke for all to see.
No, this world is not perfect. It has sin in it. But I have never said that. I only said that every Christian (not every person) receives the Holy Spirit and it is up to that person to tap into the Holy Spirit the way God intends. If they don't, doesn't mean they don't have it. The problem is that sin still is on this Earth. Some will never turn away from it and turn towards God. Others will struggle because they don't always listen to the Holy Spirit and use it the way they should. Then there are those who are fully devoted to God and the Holy Spirit. If everyone in the world did the latter, then yes...the world would more than likely be perfect.
Now, there is more I could probably say, but I will leave this post with this. I know that I don't know everything (which is why I research scriptures myself before I make any reply) and that I'm not perfect. My experiences in life have taught me many things, and if what you say is true, then everything that I've learned from my experiences would be wrong. But I research scriptures to find the truth, whether it be your ideas, mine, or someone else's...even if it might contradict what I've learned from my experiences. However, arguing will get us nowhere. You have told your side. I have told mine. It has been a good debate, so now it is time for everyone else to make their decision on their own. We have made ours.
You can say that I am biased. But I will tell you that after reading your posts I went into reading Acts on the brink of believing you. I thought..."What if there was something I missed." But all I could find was the opposite of what you claimed. Not a misunderstanding, but word-for-word documentation from Luke telling just the opposite. I posted those words written by Luke for all to see.
No, this world is not perfect. It has sin in it. But I have never said that. I only said that every Christian (not every person) receives the Holy Spirit and it is up to that person to tap into the Holy Spirit the way God intends. If they don't, doesn't mean they don't have it. The problem is that sin still is on this Earth. Some will never turn away from it and turn towards God. Others will struggle because they don't always listen to the Holy Spirit and use it the way they should. Then there are those who are fully devoted to God and the Holy Spirit. If everyone in the world did the latter, then yes...the world would more than likely be perfect.
Now, there is more I could probably say, but I will leave this post with this. I know that I don't know everything (which is why I research scriptures myself before I make any reply) and that I'm not perfect. My experiences in life have taught me many things, and if what you say is true, then everything that I've learned from my experiences would be wrong. But I research scriptures to find the truth, whether it be your ideas, mine, or someone else's...even if it might contradict what I've learned from my experiences. However, arguing will get us nowhere. You have told your side. I have told mine. It has been a good debate, so now it is time for everyone else to make their decision on their own. We have made ours.