Interesting rock, paper, and scissors battles in Star Wars Ep. III

MeridianFlight

New Member
If you haven't seen Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith yet and you don't want the movie to be spoiled, you need to stop reading.

Seriously, last chance, for all three of you who haven't seen it.

OK, anyway, did anyone notice how the Jedis match up against each other in Episode III? Correct me if I'm wrong Star Wars sages, but Anakin Skywalker is (eventually) supposed to be the greatest Jedi of all time, correct? Until that time, Yoda is "the dude." However, in the movie, Yoda at best comes to a draw when he battles the Chancellor. The Chancellor benefits of course, from being able to grab on to something to prevent his fall at the end of the fight, where Yoda can just scratch the nice finish of a Senate donut before falling, so it looks like a victory for the Chancellor.

Yet earlier, Mace Windu practically dominates the Emperor. Which is odd, because the three Jedi accompanying Mace Windu don't even get swings in against the Emperor before being felled by him. If it weren't for Anakin punking Mace Windu (Nice long dramatic pause as he raises to strike the Emperor, inviting Anakin to swing at him.), then Windu would have finished off the Emperor.

It's not as if Mace Windu uses the environment to his advantage, like Obi-Wan did in his win over Anakin.

Doesn't that leave Mace Windu as the best fighter (Outside of Anakin...eventually), or was his "cornering" of the Emperor just a nice way to serve the plot and allow for Anakin's dramatic turn towards the Dark Side?

Do I have way too much time on my hands at 1:30 in the morning (PST) over Christmas break to be analyzing this?
 
guess I shouldn't read this.... lol really need to watch the movie just never have time for movies :(
 
Well, Mace Windu uses a much more agressive style of lightsabre fighting. As well as Yoda was very arrogant before the fight, which led to his downfall.
 
Well, Mace was pretty much the only character left alive at the end of Pulp Fiction, and he was also Shaft, so yeah, Mace Windu FTW.

By the way, did anyone else see Neo as Constantine?
 
now after watching the movie... I can put my two cents worth. When mace faced the Chancellor, he ability could be for a few reasons... he is one of the top jedi with a lightsaber, the chancellor may not have had the enviroment objects to move like against yoda, Mace was in control of he emotions and in controll of his jedi powers, or it could be simply that the Chancellor wanted to slowly lose to enrage Ankin to strike Mace and make the final leap to the dark side. Plus an after thought could be when the Chancellors real (sith) face hidden from the senate, could that have weakened his ability to control the dark side of the force and not being disguised against yoda he could more easily used the force....

MMMMmmmm meditate on this, I must......
 
Ok my 2 cents, as my son and daughter and I have discussed this in great detail...

a few points-

1. Throw out Mace's battle with Emporer. He threw that on purpose.
2. Yoda tied Count Doocu and the Emporer.
3. Anikin defeats Doocu
4. Several statements talk about Yoda being the best Jedi with lightsabre in movies and Anakin equalling him
5. So, Anakin and Yoda are about equal in sword skills
6. Obi-Wan defeats Anakin in most dynamic sabre battle of all episodes

Obi-Wan is the greatest Jedi ever to live with the possible exception of Luke. Yoda is third followed by Vader/Anakin. A case can be made for Darth Maul.
 
Icthus said:
Ok my 2 cents, as my son and daughter and I have discussed this in great detail...

a few points-

1. Throw out Mace's battle with Emporer. He threw that on purpose.
2. Yoda tied Count Doocu and the Emporer.
3. Anikin defeats Doocu
4. Several statements talk about Yoda being the best Jedi with lightsabre in movies and Anakin equalling him
5. So, Anakin and Yoda are about equal in sword skills
6. Obi-Wan defeats Anakin in most dynamic sabre battle of all episodes

Obi-Wan is the greatest Jedi ever to live with the possible exception of Luke. Yoda is third followed by Vader/Anakin. A case can be made for Darth Maul.

Objection!

In regards to point number one, I don't think the Emperor threw the fight with Mace. Anakin didn't arrive until after the Emperor had already lost his lightsaber. I remember hearing in one of the Star Wars documenteries that Mace Windu is second only to Yoda in lightsaber skills.

While Yoda's battle with the Emperor ended in a draw, you have to believe Yoda would have won against Count Dooku. While else would Dooku seek an out of the fight by distracting Yoda with endangering the lives of Anakin and Obi-Wan? He knew he wasn't going to win.

As for Obi-Wan winning the duel with Anakin, that was a product of both Obi-Wan's strategic decision to take the high ground and Anakin's arrogance in thinking he could still be victorious against Obi-Wan.
 
Ever notice that Obi never actually looses any lightsabre battle? Even in A New Hope, he didn't loose to Darth Vader because of any skill difference, rather, he choose to let himself die so that Luke and gang can get away.

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Another superior strategic decision Obi makes.
 
I would tend to dissagree I fell the top 5 of greatest Jedi/Sith would be as follows

1. Yoda (not the best with a lightsaber, but has by far the most understanding of the light side)
2. Emporer (maybe a sith, but definitely know the force hands down, amost greater then Yoda)
3. Anakin Skywalker (good or evil he was amazing strong in the force)
4. Count Doocu (after the padwain of yoda must be well rounded)
5. Obi-wan (very strong discipline in the force, but know as high on the midacloniens as the others)

I don't even think Luke is in the top 5 because his win over Vader was situational, the Emporer was going to kill Luke and Vader's love for his son changed him back to Anakin and he gave is life for lukes... Luke was just a pawn in the war of Anakin.
 
I know I don't have a whole lot of knowledge about Star Wars but my dh is a Star Wars junky. According to the things he has told me by reading books and other stuff of the back story Mace Windu was actually the most powerful Jedi on the council. (If I heard that incorrectly I am sure my dh, PastorWirl, will post and correct me). But that is what I thought I heard. Of course it really doesn't matter to me :) Just thought I would share.
 
Anakin had the most raw "force power", but not excellent training. I actually disagree with whoever said that Yoda had the most understanding of the light side. I would say that Qui Gon did. If he had trained anakin I doubt he would have turned.
 
I think the question becomes what is the greatest jedi?

Sheer knowledge of the force or lightsabre skill or midchlor-whatevers...

Obi-Wan still wins to me.

And Luke gave up the fight with Vader and the Emporer don't forget!!

By the way as a nice aside, my 8 year old son is writing episode 7. He is calling it the new Yoda..... hmmmmmm
 
IceBladePOD said:
Objection!

In regards to point number one, I don't think the Emperor threw the fight with Mace. Anakin didn't arrive until after the Emperor had already lost his lightsaber. I remember hearing in one of the Star Wars documenteries that Mace Windu is second only to Yoda in lightsaber skills.

While Yoda's battle with the Emperor ended in a draw, you have to believe Yoda would have won against Count Dooku. While else would Dooku seek an out of the fight by distracting Yoda with endangering the lives of Anakin and Obi-Wan? He knew he wasn't going to win.

As for Obi-Wan winning the duel with Anakin, that was a product of both Obi-Wan's strategic decision to take the high ground and Anakin's arrogance in thinking he could still be victorious against Obi-Wan.

Overruled!!

The Emperor did not bring lightning out his fingers until the end. He had Mace right were his twisted ways needed him.

I will still go with the draw on the yodi-dooku being a jedi is more than saber skills and knowledge of the force.

Obi-Wan is the greatest still, as for point three see my prior point. Being the greatest Jedi is more than the sum of its parts!!

Obi!! Obi!! Obi!!
 
I thought I'd add this bit of info I came across lately, bolding the areas pertinent to the discussion:

Form VII: Juyo / Vaapad

Form VII has been an oddity for millennia. It was modified by Jedi Master Mace Windu, who used it to create his Vaapad fighting style. The most challenging and demanding of all forms, Form VII requires intense focus, high levels of skill, and mastery of other forms. Form VII is without question the rarest form, and only two Jedi have ever mastered Vaapad fully: Mace Windu and Depa Billaba. Sora Bulq, who instructed Quinlan Vos in a few of its basics, never fully mastered Vaapad, Mace Windu stated that Sora knew "almost as much as him". As stated in Star Wars Insider, Darth Maul was trained in Form VII combat as well. Sora Bulq helped Windu develop Vaapad, but Bulq and Mace's Padawan, Billaba, proved too weak to master the flow of the light and dark sides, and fell to the dark side. In this way, Vaapad mastered them. Many believed Plo Koon could master Form VII, but he believed that it was too dangerous so he took on Form V instead. In KOTOR II, the Jedi Exile can learn Juyo from Master Kavar, but only if the Exile is a Guardian, Weapon Master, or Marauder.

Sometimes used as another name for Form VII itself, Vaapad is in fact a "sub-form" of Juyo. The term Vaapad comes from a non-sentient predator on the planet Sarapin and its moons. A Vaapad has no fewer than seven tentacles, while the largest ever killed had twenty-three. However, the tentacles moved so extremely fast that no one could actually count the tentacles until the monstrosity was slain. Standard Juyo contains sleek, fast movements with strong strikes, whereas Mace Windu's specialized Vaapad focuses the use of the Force and emotion to fuel attacks (which explains why Sora and Depa both fell to the dark side in using it) normally used in Juyo. Regular Juyo can be mastered (or at least "sub-mastered") much more easily than Vaapad, but Juyo can never truly be used to its full extent unless training in Vaapad is taken. Standard Juyo is not as powerful as Vaapad, but lessens the risk of falling to the dark side.

Intrepid, somewhat direct movements are used in combination with very advanced techniques involving Force-powered jumps and motions. Form VII does not appear as fancy as Form IV, but the technical details of it use very open movements resulting in a very unpredictable battle style. The staccato swings and flow of the form make it seem as if the attacks are not linked—but in reality, it is merely confusing the opponent. This style is very similar to the martial art of ninjitsu. The sword techniques of this art are very practical, using "battlefield" philosophy; kill, move on.

Form VII demands the emotional and physical intensity of Form V, but it much more effectively controls it (if mastered). Form VII, when fully mastered, results in extraordinary power.

Only through the learning of several other forms could a Jedi began to understand Form VII, being the most demanding combat style. It involved so much physical combat ability that its training brings a Jedi very close to the Dark Side of the Force. To master Form VII, a Jedi had to employ bold movements and be more kinetic than in any other form. Form VII employed the use of overwhelming power directed through unconnected, staccato movements that kept an opponent continually off-guard.

However, Vaapad borders on the edge of using the dark side, as it channels one's anger and darkness into the attack—it may be related to Japanese shinkengata. Only Windu's mastery and concentration of the light side prevents him from succumbing, which is why Vaapad is rarely practiced and very dangerous. As mentioned above, the only two other known practitioners of Vaapad, Sora Bulq and Depa Billaba, both fell to the dark side of the Force.

Vaapad is not just a fighting style. It is a state of mind and a power. The state of mind requires that a user of Vaapad allow himself to enjoy the fight. He must give himself over to the thrill of battle, the rush of winning. Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side.

The power of Vaapad is simple: it is a channel for one's inner darkness; and it is a reflecting device. With strict control, a person's own emotions and inner darkness can be changed into a weapon of the light. Vaapad is also a superconducting loop, with the user on one end and the opponent on the other. Vaapad is able to take the hatred, anger and rage of the opponent and reflect it back at him. In his fight with Palpatine, Mace Windu used Palpatine's own speed and hatred against him, reflecting it back against the Sith Lord and using it as his own power. Vaapad is at once a form of lightsaber combat, a state of mind, and an actual tangible power. To use it requires great mastery, discipline and, above all else, purity of heart and spirit. Vaapad users are intense, focused, and introverted; there are even signs of pent-up hostility in them.

In KOTOR 2, which takes place about 4,000 years before the Clone Wars, Juyo was one of the lightsaber forms that could be used, showing that even though Juyo was incomplete, it was still an effective form for millennia before Mace Windu completed it with Vaapad.

Darth Maul had mainly studied Form VII Juyo first, then enhanced it with his own hatred and anger as well as his own knowledge of martial prowess and a Sith lightsaber/double-bladed lightsaber. It is similar to Mace Windu's Vaapad where he channels his anger into attacking and giving himself to the thrill of winning a battle as described in the novelization of Revenge of the Sith.

In the novel Star Wars: Shatterpoint, Mace Windu indicated that part of Depa Billaba's Vaapad blade work has even surpassed Mace Windu himself and the Vaapad he created and used.

Another variation of Juyo is used by Master Cin Drallig in the Revenge of the Sith Video Game, whose personal style takes the extremely high speed at which Juyo operates and takes it to a Vaapad-like level without losing the power of normal Juyo (if the word 'normal' could ever accurately describe Juyo).

Vapaad gives the user a unique position for fighting dark side users, for when mastered, it allows the user to draw upon the dark side's strength. In Revenge of the Sith, Mace Windu might have been unable to defeat Sidious had it not been for his mastery of Vaapad.

Known practitioners of Form VII: Mace Windu, Sora Bulq, Depa Billaba, Quinlan Vos (Incomplete Training), Darth Maul, Cin Drallig, Master Kavar.

It's an interesting, if long, read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightsaber_combat

This is my favorite:

Tràkata

This is a form of lightsaber combat unique to only one or two of the most powerful Jedi. The Jedi will keep the lightsaber in their grasp, but will keep it turned off. The Jedi will then dodge or defend any attacks using the Force. Some of the more skilled Jedi may launch attacks using the Force in-between sweeps of the opponent's lightsaber. They will then wait until the right moment and swiftly turn the lightsaber on and off, sending the blade through the enemy's body. This will instantly wound or kill the enemy. This technique is difficult to master and to use it the Jedi must be very powerful with the Force. It is considered to be a dark form of combat as it takes the enemy by surprise and can be also used outside a lightsaber duel to dispose of somebody in close quarters. It is best used in lightsaber dueling but can also be used to avoid blaster fire.

Jedi Master Yoda mastered this style to perfection and used it often when in battle with many foes.

Tràkata was also used to great effect against the Yuuzhan Vong. When a lightsaber locked against an amphistaff the Jedi would shut down the blade, shift position and reignite it, sending the deadly energy beam through a less-protected joint or seam in the Vong's vonduun crab armor, as shown by Corran Horn on Ithor.

This style is likely based on Iaijutsu
 
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