Infant salvation

Interesting response. I like that he points it all to Christ. I would probably go further and think that all infants who die are of the elect. I understand that when a sinner is saved it shows God's incredible mercy to the universe and when a sinner burns in hell it shows God's incredible justice to the universe. These both bring glory to God which is the chief end of man. I don't see how an infant dying and going to hell, who has not yet seen the proof of natural revelation that condemns him (aka Romans 1) would bring glory to God. Perhaps it does in a way I can't understand but I would guess that Christ payment will be applied to all infants as He is a loving father and that seems to be a natural path for it to go. I am not saying that infants are without original sin, but that God elects them and applies the blood sacrifice to them in the womb. Totally guessing tho.
 
ewoksrule said:
Interesting response. I like that he points it all to Christ. I would probably go further and think that all infants who die are of the elect. I understand that when a sinner is saved it shows God's incredible mercy to the universe and when a sinner burns in hell it shows God's incredible justice to the universe. These both bring glory to God which is the chief end of man. I don't see how an infant dying and going to hell, who has not yet seen the proof of natural revelation that condemns him (aka Romans 1) would bring glory to God. Perhaps it does in a way I can't understand but I would guess that Christ payment will be applied to all infants as He is a loving father and that seems to be a natural path for it to go. I am not saying that infants are without original sin, but that God elects them and applies the blood sacrifice to them in the womb. Totally guessing tho.
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I would agree!!
 
I dont think you can prove its not. I know its what John Piper believes, I heard him talk on it once and felt it was well defended.
 
ewoksrule said:
I dont think you can prove its not. I know its what John Piper believes, I heard him talk on it once and felt it was well defended.
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Yeah, I almost posted his link. Sadly, his view isn't scriptural. He makes it's clear that it's what he "thinks". He did give a verse to try to back up his view, but it was out of context. Plus, it was a backwards way of interpreting scripture. I prefer for someone to say, "I don't know, the Bible isn't clear on that" instead of, "well, here's what I think...and here's a verse that might support what I believe."

Piper's opinion is basically that there is an age of accountability. It's not biblical and is a rationalization from decision theology.

Piper's video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCUAi8JfWk0
 
Ahh that video looks familiar. Yeah he didnt give much scripture there. There is another talk he gives that is much longer and had more to it. I am not sure how much decision theology he maintains, as he is a 7 point Calvinist.
 
I was thinking about it a bit more after you reminded me that he's a Calvinist. Some of what he says in the Baptism explanation (I disagree with him on that too btw) seems inconsistent with how I thought Calvinists believed.
 
I watched the first part and didn't see it. Do I need to watch more? I have read alot of his books and heard 100s of his sermons. I have never thought him to be characterized as having decision theology. I am more inclined to think you are misunderstanding him on that topic.

As reformed doctrine goes, he leans towards the Reformed Baptist side of the Calvinist camp more than the Presbyterian Covenant theology side but all in all he is fairly consistent in my opinion.


Back to the topic, here is a good statement.
http://www.alliancenet.org/cc/article/0,,PTID307086_CHID559376_CIID2012212,00.html

(John Piper is on this council btw.)
 
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It's split into 5 parts and I can't remember exactly where, but there's a point when he is talking about faith (maybe video 3 or 4). I totally agree with him that we are saved by grace through faith. However, he seems to describe faith as something we muster up within ourselves. As one example that I remember, he argues that babies can not be baptized because they can't have faith. Now I'm not going to debate for or against infant baptism here, but it seems like he believes that faith is something that we muster up within ourselves rather than something that is given to us by God.

Regarding the article...cool read. Regarding the last statement though:

"All our children who die in infancy or who die professing Christ with a faith agreeable to their age and ability, have gone directly into heaven, because of the grace of God who numbered all their days and brought them safely to heaven in Jesus Christ."

It's a good idea, but not biblical. Since the Bible remains silent on this, we do not know for certain that all children who die in infancy go straight to Heaven. It's definitely not a core doctrinal issue so it's not worth splitting hairs over. What we can know for certain is that though we all are sinners, Christ died for us.
 
ewoksrule said:
Ps, there is no way Piper would say muster up belief, now I'm positive you are misunderstanding. :) the dude believes in dbl predestination, c'mon.
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haha, yeah.. I know he's not saying that. I'll admit I'm drawing a conclusion based on how I interpreted what he said in that specific video. His argument against infant baptism (which I'm not debating here) is that he says that infants can't have faith. What he does not clarify is where he believes faith originates. If he believes that faith is a gift from God, then I would have to ask why God only gives faith to mature believers. His argument in this video (end of video 3 through video 4) combined with his response about infant death makes me draw the conclusion that he must believe in the age of accountability (at last to a degree).

I like Al Mohler and have listened to his radio show from time to time. I have respect for him, but I do believe he's incorrect in this article on a couple of points. Specifically to this topic, he's taking verses in Deuteronomy that don't have anything to do with infant death / salvation and uses them to rationalize his belief.
 
There is no direct passage that says this or that but consider the following and I think we can safely say that infants who die will spend eternity with Jesus in heaven:

1. The Lord Jesus died for all of Adam's race, including every infant that has ever been born.

2. A person is condemned for rejecting Jesus Christ and refusing to believe in him (John 3:18). An infant is incapable of rejecting Jesus Christ.

3. Those who go to hell in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 are those who have deliberately disobeyed the gospel by refusing to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, infants have not wilfully disobeyed the gospel.

4. Revelation 20:11-15 indicates that all of the unsaved are resurrected to appear before the Great White Throne, and it is stressed that each will be judged accordig to their works. IMO, it is doubtful that infants will be included in the evaluatoin, what evil work has a 6 month old baby committed?

5. Consider the compassionate heart of God for those who are lost: "Who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4--this is God's desire). "Not willing that any should perish" (2 Pet. 3:9). "Even so it is not the will of your Father, who is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish" (Matt. 18:14). "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked" (Ezekiel 33:11). While these verses do not refer specifically to infants, they do teach us that the loving and merciful heart of our God desires the salvation of all men.

6. We know that the Lord Jesus had a tender and compassionate heart for the little children and was much displeased when His disciples were hindering them from coming to Him (Mark 10:13-14). We are sure that our Saviour has this same kind of compassion, not only for children, but for young infants also.

7. King David had a child by Bathsheba which died in infancy. David's words are significant: "While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me" (2 Samuel 12:22-23). The clear sense of this passage is that David believed that he would be reunited with his child in the next life. He knew the baby, having died, could not come back to this life, but he believed that he would go to him. While we can't be dogmatic that such a passage teaches infant salvation, yet it does seem to point in that direction.

"They died, for Adam sinned - they live, for Jesus died!"
Genesis 18:25, "will not the God of all earth do right?"
 
Avesther said:
There is no direct passage that says this or that but consider the following and I think we can safely say that infants who die will spend eternity with Jesus in heaven:
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I agree that there is no direct passage that clearly says it. However, I disagree that we can "safely say that infants who die will spend eternity with Jesus in Heaven." If the Bible does not clearly state it, I personally believe that we have to take the approach of saying, "I don't know."

Avesther said:
1. The Lord Jesus died for all of Adam's race, including every infant that has ever been born.
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I agree. John 3:16 is clear that God so love the world that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. A Calvinist would argue that "the world" only refers to the elect and that God only died for his chosen people. I personally believe that Christ's death is for ALL even though not all are saved. This does not guarantee salvation for all infants. We can hope and assume, but it's really just a guess and only God knows for sure.

Avesther said:
2. A person is condemned for rejecting Jesus Christ and refusing to believe in him (John 3:18). An infant is incapable of rejecting Jesus Christ.
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In Romans we also read that none are righteous (Romans 3:10-12) and that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). We are saved by faith through grace. You stated that an infant is incapable of rejecting Jesus Christ. Some argue that an infant is incapable of having faith. Personally, I don't know. I do know that John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit and leapt in his mother's womb (Luke 1:41), so I do believe that God is capable giving the gift of faith to infants. This still does not guarantee salvation to all infants however.


Avesther said:
3. Those who go to hell in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 are those who have deliberately disobeyed the gospel by refusing to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, infants have not wilfully disobeyed the gospel.
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This really is out of context and doesn't seem to apply to the topic. Still, one could make a case that it does.

Leading up to verse 8, Paul warns that God will judge "in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus."

I don't know how it is in the Greek and it might be worth looking at. As it is here, the AND can either signify two conditions for one group, or two separate groups.

So infants may not be in the group who willfully disobey Jesus, but they may be included in the group who do not know God. According to Romans 5:12, we're born into this world with the sin we inherited from Adam. However, just we we inherited Adam's sin, Christ's atoning work on the cross is propitiated to us by grace through faith. (romans 5:12-21)

Avesther said:
4. Revelation 20:11-15 indicates that all of the unsaved are resurrected to appear before the Great White Throne, and it is stressed that each will be judged accordig to their works. IMO, it is doubtful that infants will be included in the evaluatoin, what evil work has a 6 month old baby committed?
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It's a good though, but is speculation.

Avesther said:
5. Consider the compassionate heart of God for those who are lost: "Who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4--this is God's desire). "Not willing that any should perish" (2 Pet. 3:9). "Even so it is not the will of your Father, who is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish" (Matt. 18:14). "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked" (Ezekiel 33:11). While these verses do not refer specifically to infants, they do teach us that the loving and merciful heart of our God desires the salvation of all men.
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God is a loving, but the Bible also speaks of his wrath and judgement. Who can say why some are saved and others are not? Only God knows. He may save all infants. However, since the Bible does not clearly state it, we can not know for certain until we are in Heaven.

Avesther said:
6. We know that the Lord Jesus had a tender and compassionate heart for the little children and was much displeased when His disciples were hindering them from coming to Him (Mark 10:13-14). We are sure that our Saviour has this same kind of compassion, not only for children, but for young infants also.
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Same answer as the previous point. God is loving, kind, and gracious...but unless the Bible explicitly states that "all infants automatically get a free pass into Heaven", we won't know for certain.

Think about it this way, if we know for sure that all infants are saved, then why should we fight so hard to stop abortion? (I hate making that argument, but there are Christians who really do believe this.)

Avesther said:
7. King David had a child by Bathsheba which died in infancy. David's words are significant: "While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me" (2 Samuel 12:22-23). The clear sense of this passage is that David believed that he would be reunited with his child in the next life. He knew the baby, having died, could not come back to this life, but he believed that he would go to him. While we can't be dogmatic that such a passage teaches infant salvation, yet it does seem to point in that direction.
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This is one of the most commonly used verses to justify the age of accountability. However, this example is applied to one specific person -- King David. David may simply be acknowledging that he prayed and pleaded to God, but now his son is dead and there's nothing more he can do about it. He states that he will see him again. Maybe God revealed this to him, or maybe it's hope. In any case, it does not guarantee that all infants are automatically saved.


Avesther said:
"They died, for Adam sinned - they live, for Jesus died!"
Genesis 18:25, "will not the God of all earth do right?"
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Out of context, logic reasoning...but not explicitly stated.


All good examples on based on speculation and reason...but as you said, "There is no direct passage that says this". I am of the mindset that we should not make assumptions with scripture. The Bible clearly says it, or it doesn't.

I prefer to take the attitude of speaking where scripture speaks, and remaining silent where it is silent.
 
When it comes to Revelations, it clearly states lots of things but the clarity of it is, well, beyond us today.

When it comes to a topic such as this one, imo, you have to take a look at the bible and find things on a greater topic and see if contextually they are appropriate. Meaning, finding out who God is and using that imperfect knowledge to apply to these topics. John 3:16 states entire world, it must mean also infants, for example.

You ask how does an infant have faith?

You stated that an infant is incapable of rejecting Jesus Christ. Some argue that an infant is incapable of having faith. Personally, I don't know.
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Luke 18:17
I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.

While I can't say for sure with 100% certainty, I can say through the way the bible talks about receiving the kingdom requiring faith, that it is highly probably that you can reword this passage to read "anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God {with the faith} like a little child" and it would be accurate. Please let me know if you think I am completely mis-interpreting Jesus words.

From here I would say, what is the faith of a child and is it any different then the faith of an adult?

The bible talks about why do we worry? The bible talks about how God will cloth us better then the fields, and feed us better then the birds, and does not a bird die but by the will of God?

A child does not worry about food getting to their table or a roof over their head or clothes on their back. Yet as a parent I do. So what changed from childhood to adulthood?

I would answer I learned that I can be self reliant. I can be, well, like God. I put forward effort, I get paid, I put food on the table. I don't put forward effort, I don't get paid, I don't put food on the table. I don't mean to take away from God when I say I put forward effort and faith means I wouldn't. Even Adam had to farm the barren land. What I mean is I have made a personal connection that left God out of the equation. And I require the same faith that the child has (and to the child, the parents are the part of the equation that puts forth the effort) in that God will do his part.

The bible doesn't say explicitly that God helps those that help themselves. There are plenty of references to the idea that God simply helps whom God chooses and that he helps those who put forth the effort as well.

For example, let's say I want to get in shape. I could wake up and God will have made me a 190lb, perfect in health, scupltured body male with the right amount of sinew and muscles to body fat etc... . That is God's prerogative. I could wake up one morning with the idea somehow planted in my brain that I need to go to the gym, today, and join, today. I could put it off because I worry about affording it, how am I going to find more work, or save money somewhere, where am I going to find the time, basically worry about what can I do about it. Or I could just show up, sign up and then letter in the day meet a new client, from who's billings I will be able to afford the gym membership.

It is faith that God planted the idea in my brain and the if it is his will, he has a plan to make it happen. The worrying about affording it, finding time especially now that I will have to take on more work, is something I had to learn. It is something infants do not know yet. So, what faith does an infant need that, most likely, to do not already have?

I agree, I will never know for 100% certainty until I come face to face with my Lord. And until then, based on my relationship with Jesus (versus feelings of what I think or feel should be right), I am making an assumption for myself, that infants who die, will, by the Grace of God, enter the kingdom of heaven. And if they don't, I have faith, that the "why" will be made perfectly clear when I come face to face with my Lord, long before I ask him the question.
 
Pelagrin said:
Think about it this way, if we know for sure that all infants are saved, then why should we fight so hard to stop abortion? (I hate making that argument, but there are Christians who really do believe this.)
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The same reason we fight to stop murder. Because as Christians we value the gift of life and despise injustice. As followers of Christ, God desires that we seek justice and defend the oppressed (Isaiah 1:17).
 
Avesther said:
You ask how does an infant have faith?

Luke 18:17
I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it....
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Actually, i wasn't really asking whether it was possible for infants to have faith. I fully believe it. I reject the idea that we are saved by choosing God and believe that God saves us by dragging us to him. It doesn't matter if we are infants or adults. Likewise, I believe baptism is directly connected to salvation (a work from God and not something we actively do) and I have no problem with infants being baptized. /emote *pelagrin ducks to avoid dogpile*

I wasn't really arguing that I don't believe that God saves infants (or for that matter the mentally handicapped....or anyone else He chooses to save whether they've heard the Gospel or not -- such as people from remote tribes with no outside contact.) I can hope that my unborn children are in Heaven...but I'll find out for sure when I get to Heaven.
 
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