I just don't get DOTA

[Bowser]

double post

 

[Tek7]

Just not as repetitive as any other RTS

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but League of Legends isn't classified as a real-time strategy game.

Do I want 3 races with about 3 main ways to build them, for a total of 9 variations, or 75 heroes times approximately 3 legitimate builds for each which means 225 variations?

...Bwah?

StarCraft: 3 races * x number of units * y number of maps

League of Legends: 69 champions * 2 maps

Those are starting points for each game.

StarCraft strategies depend heavily on map layout; distances between bases, distances to expansions, number of expansions, types of expansions (gold minerals, standard minerals, island expansion), cover, and other terrain features all affect strategy.

Strategies also differ based on your opponents. One Terran may be very effective versus Zerg but far less effective versus Protoss.

Then factor in that strategies differ depending on the number of opponents. Playing a 1v1 is vastly different from a 2v2 or 3v3.

Still, to say there are "9 variations" in StarCraft II is a gross underestimate, to say the least.

It's unfortunate that specific strategies (bioball, 4 gate, mass stalkers) are so common, but balance tweaks and emerging strategies tend to diversify strategic options in the long run.

I on the other hand find the class shooters more boring: there's only a few number of classes to choose from, and once i do only a couple weapons to use... same "variety" over and over again at the expense of not having a dozen weapons available for me to use based on the situation and area of the map, and hardly any variety in the ways you can traverse the maps.

I think where class shooter shine is in providing alternatives to, "Run here, kill dudes."

Using TF2 as an example: Medics heal allies and help break stalemates using ubercharges, Engineers build and maintain sentries which help in area denial and teleporters which help speed movement to the battlefront, Spies disrupt enemy focus and report on sentry and enemy team player locations (at least when alltalk is off), and Scouts make people ragequit. (Okay, I threw in that last one for a bit of levity.)

My point is that class-based games like TF2 provide alternatives to stock deathmatch. Don't misunderstand; I love me some deathmatch. I still play Quake Live and Half-Life 2 Deathmatch, as well as other DM games. (Nothing like pulling random objects out of walls with a gravity gun and hurling them at your opponent.)

I play different games at different times based on different moods (and also based on who's playing what).

Well it's a good thing that there are a lot of quality PC games out to cater to us all!

Agreed.

Lol, someone's obviously a little biased in favor of Starcraft.

And I make no apologies for it.

StarCraft was the first RTS I loved. (I played and liked WarCraft II, but enjoyed SC so much more.) While I'm disappointed in some aspects of SC2, I still think it's the most fun modern RTS.

Honestly, I would say the same thing about pretty much every RTS I've started playing long enough after it came out. You may have a campaign to learn in, but you still find that you get your tail kicked when you try to compete with players.

With random players, yes.

One of the great things about ToJ and, specifically, its SC2 chapter is that we have players with a wide range of skill levels. I'm on the lower end of the skill spectrum among our SC2 chapter member, so I'm not going to play many (or any) 1v1s, but I'll gladly play a reasonably evenly matched 2v2 or 3v3. I'll even play the occasional 4v4 Quick Match with a pre-made ToJ team, but I have to remind myself not to take it seriously.

Now, I haven't had a ton of experience with Starcraft specifically in that area, but I did have that experience playing Warcraft 3 online. As Gerbil was saying, it is certainly impressive that SC has remained popular for so long. I can see plenty of reasons why that might be in addition to the ones he mentioned (such as low computer requirements and low cost to keep playing the same game instead of buying new games/computers), but it is still unusual.

Custom maps and South Korea declaring it the national sport didn't hurt.

Part of what would make it difficult for me to understand why SC is such a big deal is because I was too young to really be into video games when it came out. SC was released in early 1998, so I would have been 8 at the time. Barely old enough even TRY to play the game, certainly not old enough to be any good at it.

Thanks for making me feel old, Darth. -_-

Another difficulty with getting into RTS games in general is that they almost always have a harder learning curve than other games do, because RTS skills don't transfer as smoothly into each new RTS game. If you don't get into it early on, chances are you won't be able to because of how far behind everyone else you get (unless you have massive amounts of time available to you).

Without a gaming group like ToJ, I'd agree.

But we have several members willing to teach those new to SC2--just like Mostly_Harmless was willing to help me learn the basics of League of Legends. I wouldn't have re-installed LoL if not for his and others' willingness to help walk me through the game. LoL, by design, is very unfriendly to new players; player deaths reward the opposing team with gold and experience. My limited exposure to random LoL players suggests the community is among the rudest I've ever encountered (and I play Quake Live). Without players like MH and Danny serving as "tutors," I would have played one game of LoL and uninstalled.

In more recent years I haven't had the money or the time to get good at RTS, so instead I've kept my focus on games where my skill can transfer more easily to newer games some day when I have money to get them.

I can definitely sympathize with this point. There are only so many hours in a day and I'm not going to spend the bulk of my gaming time "training" to improve at a strategy game. That's why I tend to stick to comp stomps and in-house 2v2 and 3v3 matches. I haven't even played the first of my five 1v1 ladder placement matches and I don't intend to.

I would happily play TF2 competitively again, but that's a different skill set and I enjoy playing TF2 with teammates. Competitive SC2 is more often a solitary endeavor.

The point of that whole thing was to say that I disagree with your whole statement there. The opinion you are referring to is not wrong and has many reasons why it may be valid.

'Twas a joke, sir.

I'm neither a fan of LoL nor of SC, but I would certainly have liked to be good at them if I had time to get that way. I don't really know understand either of them is popular, but that's due more to me not spending enough time to learn than due to any inherent problems with the games.

And if the only option was playing with random people on Battle.net, I'd say don't even bother buying SC2. The single-player campaign is fun, but not worth $60 on its own. And the SC2 players I've played with outside ToJ have been, on average, rude, obnoxious, and poor sports. I would have quit Brood War had I not established Tribe of Judah in 1999 and I doubt I would have been in as big a hurry to buy SC2 if other ToJ members weren't already planning to do the same.

Who you play with makes a huge difference in any game and strategy games are no different. Based on past experience, I wouldn't bother playing SC2 or LoL with only strangers but will play both games with ToJ members. I still prefer SC2 as I think there's more variety there, but LoL is popular at the moment and I play to spend time with friends.

I'm not sure why you're comparing StarCraft with LoL.

Not to mention that I don't think you understand StarCraft very well, if at all, based on your posts here.

Eh? Are you talking to me, Danny, or Grimbeorn?

 

[Keero]

Halo Wars was the first RTS ever made, and Halo: Reach is better than LoL because you get plasma grenades. And LoL ripped off WoW anyways. /internet

Yeah, I'm not a fan of Starcraft 2, or LoL in this case, but as a social gamer, I'll hop on the bandwagon for the time being.

Also, Dawn of War 2 > recent RTSs, so there.

 

[Tek7]

Coming back to the original point of the thread:

After having played several rounds of LoL, I understand the appeal now.

That being said, I doubt I'll play once interest in the game among ToJ members wanes. I'm not good at the game, there's too much emphasis on small details for my taste, and there's only two maps at present.

Just like I'd rather play TF2 than Counter-Strike, I'd rather play SC2 than LoL. (And yes, I'm aware that TF2 is in a different genre than CS and LoL is in a different genre than SC2.) It's a simple matter of preference.

But for those that enjoy the game, carry on! I supported a ToJ CS chapter and server (and even competitive teams) for years and I'll support a ToJ LoL chapter should anyone step up and volunteer to lead one.

 

[Grimbeorn]

Thanks for making me feel old, Darth. -_-

You're welcome.

'Twas a joke, sir.

I suspected that it was, I was partly just noticing that when the supremacy of SC is questioned some people seem to react like their dog was just insulted or something. Your statement happened to be the one that was easiest to use in order to make my point.

 

[Tek7]

I suspected that it was, I was partly just noticing that when the supremacy of SC is questioned some people seem to react like their dog was just insulted or something.

It's not a dog. It's a zergling, Lester. A smaller type o' zerg.

 

[DannyMeister]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but League of Legends isn't classified as a real-time strategy game.

Some people do, some people don't... I don't know.. I'm so confused! Mostly not though.

...Bwah?

StarCraft: 3 races * x number of units * y number of maps

League of Legends: 69 champions * 2 maps

Those are starting points for each game.

StarCraft strategies depend heavily on map layout; distances between bases, distances to expansions, number of expansions, types of expansions (gold minerals, standard minerals, island expansion), cover, and other terrain features all affect strategy.

Strategies also differ based on your opponents. One Terran may be very effective versus Zerg but far less effective versus Protoss.

Then factor in that strategies differ depending on the number of opponents. Playing a 1v1 is vastly different from a 2v2 or 3v3.

Still, to say there are "9 variations" in StarCraft II is a gross underestimate, to say the least.

It's unfortunate that specific strategies (bioball, 4 gate, mass stalkers) are so common, but balance tweaks and emerging strategies tend to diversify strategic options in the long run.

I still feel like my way of counting it is more accurate

Yes, there are umpteen dozen maps, but the current map just means you will pick the one of the three-ish ways to play your current race that suits this map best.

I was trying to count MAIN variations on the way you play... like if you are human you might go bioball, or tanks/thors, or maybe air. In LoL you pick Jana and go support aura, or tanky, or AP nuker. There's tons of slight variations... like you may or may not wall off your base and you may get mana regen or a cloth armor to start out with, but I'm not going to attempt to count every little thing. For each variation you find in SC2 I'm positive I can find a counter point in LoL

 

[Bowser]

Eh? Are you talking to me, Danny, or Grimbeorn?

Sorry. I was talking to Danny.

 

[DannyMeister]

Sorry. I was talking to Danny.

Oh, you were? I don't understand why. I just continued discussion of the LoL/SC2 comparisons that have been going on for months. When some people in a group prefer one game over another, and the others vice versa, comparison is inevitable. We compare UT and SC, so why not two top-down strategy games? And while I'm no SC2 expert, I am boiling down to some core things that I feel can make a game that is by all means a game of high skill (and high complication) more boring to me personally. Parallels abound... but kiting one on one Ashe versus Yi until my 4 teammates can catch up is more fun to me than kiting 20 whatever units versus my 18 marines. I don't always know why... maybe because each human player is represented by a single unit makes a kill in LoL feel like you really defeated them, instead of just bringing down one of their many pawns on the board.

 

[Tek7]

Parallels abound... but kiting one on one Ashe versus Yi until my 4 teammates can catch up is more fun to me than kiting 20 whatever units versus my 18 marines. I don't always know why... maybe because each human player is represented by a single unit makes a kill in LoL feel like you really defeated them, instead of just bringing down one of their many pawns on the board.

Aye, I can understand that.

But nothing in LoL quite matches the feeling of flying in to an enemy's base with 32 void rays. Or peeking over an enemy's base cliff with an observer and blinking in 16+ upgraded stalkers. Or tearing through an expansion with 24+ hydralisks.

But having played both games now, I can understand the appeal of each. I just think that SC2 will have more staying power in the long-term, even with its flaws.

 

[Odale]

...I just think that SC2 will have more staying power in the long-term, even with its flaws.

Yeah, it has "Star Craft" in its name.

 

[Tek7]

Yeah, it has "Star Craft" in its name.

Well, yes, that, and frequent updates, new official UMS maps (Auir Chef sounds like fun!), community-made custom maps, and an ever-changing meta-game (well, in theory, at least) ensures respectable longevity. I don't know if there will be as many people playing SC2 in 10 years as there were playing Brood War 10 years after its release, but it should still be popular for quite a while.

 

[silverleaf]

unfortunately starcraft has already been infected by the deadly virus known as SOTIS. I hope it does not become like dota and completely dominate sc2...

 

[Tek7]

unfortunately starcraft has already been infected by the deadly virus known as SOTIS. I hope it does not become like dota and completely dominate sc2...

I don't begrudge DOTA fans new iterations of the game, but I share the hope that SOTIS doesn't eclipse the "stock" StarCraft II game mode. Custom game modes eventually overtake original game modes in time (e.g. DOTA and WarCraft III), but it's still too early in SC2's run to have that happen now.