I got trolled hard. Tough question.

[silverleaf]

"Even if God exists, do you really want to be with a god who lets billions suffer even though he can do something to stop it. God watches people suffer, Satan watches people suffer".

Outch. I believe it is partially our responsibility to help out others in need, but one point I can't get over is why not rain manna (the bread variety) into Africa? Actually, this is one question people often ask. Just not in such an inflammatory way. (I just replied because it is 'YOUR responsibility to donate and help the poor. God =/= the dole' and succeeded in NOT writing a slew of obscenities, though it is /b/ I'm representing God in that post)

Also, satan MAKES people suffer so there is a diff.

While the poster is implying that it is God's responsibility to basically be welfare, I can't deny that helping them out in their darkest time of need (one of the main points about God being God innit, daily bread and stuff) will be all too easy for Him to do.

Any consolation and answers/views appreciated, just seeking your thoughts on why there is needless suffering on earth.

There are trials, temptations and constructive suffering, but I cant deny there is a lot of meaningless pain and suffering in this world, which is usually caused by human stupidity, evil, greed and ruthlessness. However God just has to say it to do the bread rain thing again.

 

[Lazarus]

If God rained food down on us whenever we needed it then why would any of us go to work or plant crops?

As for the kids starving in far off such-and-such-a-country, if they starve to death, they end up in a better place. I fail to see how they're worse off than those of us who have enough food to eat but have a multitude of other problems.

 

[silverleaf]

true, if you consider letting them die and sending them to a better place a good dead. And it can be the fault of the parents (having kids when they can't even feed themselves). However, not saying God should be Centrelink aka the dole. However, when man has done his best, and still can't survive, he looks to God for material provisions - our daily bread. Not that I don't ask God for spiritual provisions and general blessing daily.

However, I think the world is crowded and overpopulation has stripped the land, and you have a point, in that whenever we need stuff it just rains down, eventually there would be 10 people per square feet.

I'm very worried by the fact that a troll actually made me think. Serious stuff.

Thanks for the insight appreciate it.

 

[RyanB]

I think we need to remember this life is very short on the scale of eternity. Food, comfort, etc...these things are not important in the long run. God doesn't deprive anybody of anything that really matters.

But why? Why even that little suffering? I don't believe that Eden was the "original plan", this is...this fallen world. I frame everything I believe through this:

Given:
* God created us to love us and for us to love him
* God is perfect and holy, and heaven must stay holy

If you believe these two things and follow them to their natural conclusions:
* We must have free will to love God. We must choose Him. Automatic love is not love at all.
* Free will means we will defile ourselves. Adam did not sin because Satan pulled one over on God; Adam did it because he could. So naturally, no one will be completely holy. Catch-22.
* Because of this problem, God needed to send a holy sacrifice.'

If we believe that God created us to love him, and that love requires free will, then the natural conclusion is that we will hurt each other, kill each other, starve each other, etc. But in the long run, it really doesn't matter very much, because what God does provide to everybody is the truth of who he is and the choice to choose him or the world.

TL;DR: As counter-intuitive as it may seem, I believe God allows us to suffer because he loves us.

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

When sin entered our world it brought pain and death the effect of having chosen a path different from God (I.E. righteousness). If we enjoyed them how would God be seen as the better choice? Also Sin entering our world threw not just us out of whack but the world itself. Sin is the ultimate pollution so famine, starvation or whatever is just another outcome of sin.

Let's take the question further though. Why stop with just feeding some Africans? Why not have no starvation ever? Why not have any bad things happen ever? At the root of the original question it's "playing God" implying the questioner could do a better job than God. Why would anyone need saving without something to be saved from? How could we desire relief from pain without ever having felt it? Who can reason Hell is bad when one has no concept of pain? Lets picture a world without pain or death ever, no wait that would be Heaven and it's not possible as long we are imperfect and cause pain by our sinful nature. So I guess God would have to destroy us if he wanted to create a pain/death free world. To bad he didn't create a way to fix us, oh wait there is that Jesus guy.

You mentioned feeding the Africans manna but look at what the Israelites did at Mt Sinai after witnessing all the miracles that brought them out of Egypt "Hedonism party". Then later after being keep alive by the miracle of manna they start whining about not having meat! They took God for granted because of all he did for them. Bear in mind too God does smack down people with natural disasters, like any Father it's not all presents sometimes punishment has to happen for us to learn a lesson. Pain on Earth can be a "tough love" thing a little now can save a ton later in Hell. That's not to say God doesn't do miracles on Earth but the amount of pain is his judgment when not ours. I trust God to allow the right amount of pain he is better at his job than I am. When it gets too much Jesus will come back to put things right.

I think some people against God (like possibly the questioner) view God as this guy telling us right and wrong saying "what gives him the right?". It's not God deciding what is righteousness, truth and love GOD IS righteousness, truth and love. Before God separated the darkness from the light He was and He was Good but for us to know that there had to be an option, a contrast, another path for us to say good is better than evil, sinning or their outcome pain. With any pain in the world we would complain about it eventually so the amount doesn't matter. If the world had been created with the only pain being say an occasional itch I'm sure we would rage against it and God having never known worse.

I am quite tired as I write this please forgive it if I fail to communicate the concepts correctly. Other people take over I sleep now XD .

Note: I wrote this based on your earlier unedited post hope I didn't miss anything. I edit my posts tons too btw . Sleeping now ZZZZZzzzzzz.

 

[RyanB]

I'm very worried by the fact that a troll actually made me think. Serious stuff.

Anti-Christian trolls are by far my favorite among the troll subspecies. They try to ask super off the wall questions to catch us (kind of reminds me of the pharisees), and to what end? Oh no! You made me get into the word of God and learn even more about him! Now I'm stronger in my faith than ever! Amateurs.

You mentioned feeding the Africans manna but look at what the Israelites did at Mt Sinai after witnessing all the miracles that brought them out of Egypt "Hedonism party".

The whole post was awesome, but this especially made me chuckle. Does stuff bring happiness? Think about how much more stuff we have nowadays compared to someone in the 60s. I mean, I'm sitting here typing this message for brothers/sisters around the world to read! And yet, are we happier today? No, we're not.

Stuff doesn't really bring happiness, and can be a snare. Comfort can actually be a snare. We simply get too comfortable and stop depending on God. Good health is often squandered on the healthy, as people really don't appreciate it until they're dying.

So I guess I'm just saying ditto to the above.

 

[silverleaf]

True, like I said, some pain is necessary. However, I sure hope God saves me if I ever get into something I have tried my best and still can't save myself from. Otherwise, what is the "prayer requests" section for?
So my worry now is if we can't trust God to give these people who need it so much a solution, how can we trust God with our worries, which seem minute by comparison?

I for one hate these trolls most of all, because they are those whom I can't just shoot down with a one liner remark that makes them look bad. And dig up the thoughts I have stored under the carpet for years.

The BIG question is: how do I know God will help me? It is one problem I've always been struggling with, and as I'm sure you're all well aware, God has actually NOT promised us anything concrete material wise. Sure, there was the little bit about how he provides even for the birds of the air, and not to worry about clothes because the grass flowers are dressed better than Solomon. However these days I don't think 'ask and it shall be given unto you' even applies in your darkest hour. The fact is, I'm having some trust issues right now. God's will is good. For the GREATER good of the kingdom. It may be to blow me up in the most spectacular way with everything I ever worked for. That's why I get very chilly when I see others say 'your will be done'. To be honest, I don't think more than a tiny fraction really means 'hey God use me do whatever, even if it kills me in the most horrible way evar'. If that is what God has in store for us, all we can do is plead him to spare us. Not saying 'go ahead it's fine'.

However, I believe in miracles, probably experienced and read about miracles, our church published a book on how people's lives have been transformed, often material wise, in their darkest hour (though not sure about the experienced part). Even in not a spectacular otherworldly way, I believe God can be pulling the strings to let things happen. I hope he's not pulling at my DEATH strings now.

Thanks folks, appreciate it. This ain't in the 'what does God say about' section as I welcome secular ideas as well. In fact, from experience, I find it easiest to fight trolls with their own poison: non religious ideas that put their half baked theories to shame.

TL;DR
I'm having some trust issues, don't know if God will (he certainly can) deliver me from my problems in my darkest hour if he won't feed the 5 billion (certainly makes my individual problems look small), and while God's will is good, it may not be good for every one of us, so I don't think many people actually mean 'do anything' when they say 'your will be done'. When I say it, I add a little part to it in my heart that goes a little like "but Lord you know what is good for me, please don't hurt me."
Selfish perhaps, but I don't wanna die or lose everything me and my parents worked for in some freak fire than burns down the house that somehow inspires millions.

 

[cc.slim]

The worst troll is the one within oneself.

 

[silverleaf]

Indeed, or the one that activates the one within myself. He didn't put all these thoughts into my head, they have been there, doubts, insecurities, since I was little. However he swept away the carpet they were under and now I can't stop worrying. When people say 'your will be done, your kingdom come', how many people are actually saying 'carry on doing the good thing, even if it kills me'?

 

[Lazarus]

Sounds like you're afraid to die?

Don't be.

 

[Durruck]

Philippians 1:20I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. 21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. 25Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, 26so that through my being with you again your joy in Christ Jesus will overflow on account of me.

Paul wrote this while he was in prison, facing near-certain execution. Yet he did not fear death. In fact, he was almost happy to be facing it since he knew without a doubt that his earthly death just meant that he began his eternity with Jesus.

I work in a rough neighborhood as a firefighter/paramedic. I've been in some pretty nasty fires, had people try to attack me. And through all this I know that my eternity is secure. There is no reason to be afraid - if God wants me, He'll find a way to take me. If not, then I'll just hang around here a little longer and do His work. Either way, there's no reason to be afraid.

I don't do anything stupid to try to hurry it along... but I walk with the full confidence of a future through our Lord, Jesus Christ.

 

[Kyrel Ruth]

A friend from church said this to me once (I hope to get it right, been awhile. This was written in book about a real life event)

There was a bunch of Christians going to be burned at the stake. One of the people said to the one ahead of her "Please I know Christ gives us grace to endure this, but I am needing a sign. If you have no fear, and feel God's presence and peace as the flames are overtaking you, can you raise 1 finger?" The gentleman said, "Yes, I will do that." He kept his word, and as the woman watched the flames leap higher the guy raised 2 fingers.

=)

 

[silverleaf]

WARNING: WALL OF TEXT, SKIP TO THE END, ONLY ONE REAL QUESTION LEFT. Unless you have nothing better to do, that's my personal story of how it came down to this yesterday after years of sweeping under the carpet . Lots of thoughts, after all it is several years of thinking. Same point as from the beginning, WILL GOD HELP US? Seems rather circular with just that one question left that puts everything into perspective.



Well, not everyone is a martyr. And for me it is not so much death itself I fear, its the way I die and the consequences. I believe it is much better to live and strive for what you believe in than to die gloriously for it.

But honestly, how many of you say "your will be done" and mean "feel free to do anything you want with me, however terrible that may be"? Had a few sermons on it though I find it hard to concentrate for the entire sermon (by right I should be at youth camp/sunday sch for teens but w/e censorship has its uses, but not for me, I believe in hearing about the tough issues as keeping my head under the sand does nothing and so I sit in). Most people mean "your will be done" as in "do good, but don't hurt me" or "it is indeed great to use me to do good, but don't hurt me". How many of you are prepared to die tonight even if it means it will bring 10 people to Christ? As for me, I believe Christ is Christ for a reason, and martyrs are martyrs for a reason. Waaayyyy outta my league.

Thanks for the insight folks, but basically think the first question has been answered. From what I gather, it is as I feared, and kinda knew all along, God ain't here to be Centerlink.
However that raises the question of 'why should we pray'?
In another sermon (by the same pastor), it is said 'God delights in giving us our daily bread' - daily bread, not daily cake. Work for it, but God is supposed to open doors, and life ain't meant to be lived without God. Some people (the atheists, and those of other faiths) manage, but no doubt it is a struggle. However the same guy
So I'm confused now. Should we pray for healing, God to be on our side during exams (a big thing as those of us in school are gonna have end of year soon), to continue to provide some level of financial security etc etc. Not saying God should just plomp it in front of us right now, but to bless the work of our hands. Like sending dew and rain on the fields, these days it is a bit more... complicated.

However, there are things we can't work for. Cure from some diseases such as cancer is one example. Then, we have miracle healers, even Jesus healed.

For one thing, we're probably like a unit in warcraft 3, just that the aim of the game is whatever plan God has. If my base was under attack (a need arises) I'd send my entire force back (he'd take us from whatever we were doing), and activate peasant militia (some people will be used as fodder - though they will probably die). So in this great heavenly game (figure a game kinda fit the description right, since billions of years to make the universe is nothing compared to God's infinity), we are nothing but individual units, some peasants, some knights, some footies, some riflemen. Each for a specific use. Now I doubt that footman I issued an attack move as a diversion right into the enemy base actually WANTS to go there. If wc3 units could think, A LOT of tactics will not be possible. It is for the greater good, for their families even (sitting inside the castle) but please send another squad. If one footman was lagging behind in a retreat, would you send in 12 gryphons to bail it out? ACCEPTABLE LOSSES. Enter a cheat code? naah. I'm worried I am an acceptable loss. So insignificant that the player (in this case God) wouldn't even bother to rescue me. And even though I'm sentient, not like some wc3 unit, he will just say 'but you already have eternal life outside the game'. Where somehow after the match is over, and a new heaven and a new earth (hits the restart button) we'd somehow be in the next game. Supposedly a better, nicer and less painful one.

At the Christianity Explained course my dad forced me to attend (it turned out not as bad but hey at that time I didn't really want this whole God business and took a very personal view on religion - outside interference out - see the fail behind that now) they said we should never hessitate to ask God for anything, something along the lines of 'if your son asks for a fish you wont give him a snake, yet you are sinful and you know that, so your Heavenly Father will give you what you need blah blah I don't memorize word for word' (need keyword not want).

As you have probably realized, I'm not exactly a staunch Christian, never claimed to be. I'd love to do my part where I can, don't mind giving back to a God that has given me so much as I consider myself blessed, heck most of us in the developed world can say that. However I want to STAY BLESSED, and that is a big reason as to why I'm a Christian. I need protection, blessing and a cause. However, the pragmatic over the idealistic, but the idealistic (God's cause) shouldn't be neglected. However christian living and stuff isn't exactly the topic sorry I got off course.


TL;DR - Is it wrong to expect assistance in our darkest hours? After all, we're not made to face life alone. Have I been praying all my life in vain? We praise God for providing for us, including financially. Do we really have Him to thank? After all if it is indeed true that He only provides Spiritually, it kinda goes against half the bible. Yet he is responsible for every blessing. I have been told A LOT of conflicting stuff all my life, one camp saying I should pray for anything for there is nothing too small or too large God cannot grant or is interested in, and that God wants to help us (not DO FOR us). The other camp says God has rescued your soul, expect nothing more.

 

[RyanB]

Big ol' post comin' through. Most of it is just scripture quotes, though, which I think are worth reading. I'd definitely recommend going through the sermon of the mount (Matt 5-7) and the latter part of Luke; there is a lot on these questions in there.

TL;DR - Is it wrong to expect assistance in our darkest hours? After all, we're not made to face life alone.

In dark hours, we should want to glorify God, regardless of the consequences (but more on this below).

Ultimately, this really touches on where our heart is at. Do we want what is comfortable for us at the time, or do we want God to be glorified above all else? This question is basically at the center of it all, because of the obvious follow-up:
If we do not hold God's will above our own, is he really our Lord? Or are we our own lords?

That's a haunting question, because of it's obvious ties to salvation and just how difficult it is to do a lot of the time. It's the most important question, though, so shouldn't be taken lightly. I'm certainly not implying that if anyone ever has a selfish moment, they must not be saved. I am not going to draw a line and say, "hey, if you follow God x% of the time he's your lord".

None of us are perfect, and we know what perfection looks like. We need to be heading in that direction and giving more and more to God. We should continually re-examine ourselves (and listen to others) and when we see an area where we can improve, do so.

----------------------------------
Ok, now as to the subject of prayer, having nice things, being saved in times of trouble. Some verses for reference.

before "the Lord's prayer"

7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

Don't worry, be happy

25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?

28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Ask and ye shall receive

7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

9"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

What it really comes down to is this: when Jesus teaches us how to pray, he doesn't ask for stuff, simply the basic needs. Rather than ask, "hey God, can you make X happen?", we should be asking, "God, please show me how to do your will in X situation. Lead me to your will, not mine". So if you ask for God's will and the basic needs to accomplish that, of course you will receive! Don't run after other things (which will enslave you, btw, more below) like the pagans do. Run after God.

Plus, everything is God's, not ours, anyway...which leads to the great irony of all of this:

10"Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. 11So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? 12And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else's property, who will give you property of your own?

If you are faithful with the little God gives you, you are likely to be given a lot more. If God provides us a small income and we squander it selfishly with no regards as to how he wants us to spend his money...why should he give us more? This is principle is seen again in the next chapter:

30"It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32Remember Lot's wife! 33Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.

Just to put that in perspective, the above verses are talking about the coming of the kingdom of God in the end times. Basically if we clink to things (life, money, etc) we will lose them. If we cling to God we will be given everything we ever need, along with eternal life.

One last one:

TL;DR: God created us and has a plan for us, and he will faithfully provide everything we need to accomplish that plan! But we shouldn't get caught in the trap of loving money, self, life, etc. more than God, because if we do we will end up with nothing. Seek ye first God's kingdom and his righteousness!

24"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

I read all your last post Silverleaf. Doesn't mean I understood your concerns but I'll give it a go and a prayer.

Yes God answers prayers but sometimes the answer is no. He's not a genie which grants any wish which is why one prays not only for "things" but to know and do the will of God. Though God is most certainly not just for the next life but this life, he does care for us on Earth. Also it is not merely for our comfort that prayers are answered but that others will see and know he is God. Though we pray earnestly we know too we will not escape pain no matter what we pray. We each will have our cross to bear (Luke 9:18). Quite frankly if it was easy to be Christian everyone would be but they would be fair weather friends. Only by experiencing pain and denying self that we can say we believe in God. Easy things may be restful but a life full of them would hold no accomplishment. It's when a game is hard that we feel the most accomplishment beating it (2 Timothy 4:7-8).

One can't say why a certain misfortune befalls a seemingly innocent person. I know some reasons it could be, they may need to be humbled, they may need to motivated to do something, they may need to have an experience to have understanding of others, they may die to be spared a greater misfortune, etc., etc. . Perhaps it's not just about those innocent starving Africans or whoever but about you too. People can feel pain by witnessing it in others and one should love God more than others (Mark 12:29-32). Perhaps God is giving you "Job" experience testing your faith (meaning the Bible chapter Job but it's funny how that works out ). I could hypothesize a lot of reasons but I'll never really know for sure on Earth. Regardless because of what I overwhelming know I still trust God even when I don't know why something happened, that is the definition of faith. (note too a cursory google shows starvation in Africa is not just about drought but also has more direct human causes).

On pain and death to say Christians are totally unafraid is a misnomer no Christian's faith is absolute nor is any human's faith in anything absolute. We are in fact not capable of absolutes only God is. Even Christ himself sweated blood (which is a documented response in times of extreme stress) while praying in the garden. We go through a lot less pain in our lives than he but if Christ was stressed by anything it's vanity to think we couldn't be. I think you have to separate the fear of the "pain" of death from the actual act of dying. We aren't afraid of what lies beyond death like the unsaved but we still can't conceptualize that experience and often the actual act of getting there involves pain which we are familiar with (I think you said this). You could ofter me a trillion dollars if I let you put a nail through my hand but I'm still going to tense up as you reel back to hammer it in. I know it's worth it but it's still not going to be an experience I'm happy going through.

Going to sleep again later! .

 

[cc.slim]

A Jesus freak moment lol I have been low as if in the gutter and I have lifted so high I could fly but as I follow I have found that the best place of all, is right here in the middle of it all! Whom stands between who and whom? Need scriptures to the lows and highs? I bet not for this is not where we want to be for a better place awaits thee! If I wait in darkness as my master I chose to be a light for those that don't know and if I'm awake in light then I choose as my master to share to those that don't know! It has never been who you are it has always been whom we are! Stand firm and armor up for another depends on who to share whom!

 

[Avesther]

I don't think this is a tough question or conundrum.

God suffers with us and does not delight in our suffering. Our suffering, or what we call suffering, comes as a natural consequence to not choosing God. If everybody everywhere choose God and followed God in perfect obedience, would there be any suffering at all?

No there would not. Sin would not be part of the equation, suffering the consequences of making bad decisions would not happen. That is the perfect world but, God did not create us to be soulless machines. God wants us to choose to love, to choose his ways over ours. And as a result of that ability to choose, we will often choose our ways, and we will suffer the consequences of our decisions.

Let me bring what I am saying down from a Godly point of view to a more human and less perfect example: As a parent, I hate watching my son make the wrong decision. When he chooses not to do his homework (or hand it in) he making choice, not me. I'm not forcing him into doing the right or wrong thing. And when he fails, he suffers the consequence. I can jump in and save him from those consequences like do his homework, hand it in, maybe somehow write the exams for him. Is that right? I have serious doubts that people who claim that while God can do something to stop suffering would be themselves willing to do everything for their own children and friends. They are most likely to be the ones who would say "suffer your own consequences, learn from your decisions, if sticking a needle in your eye hurts, don't do it a second time." The technical term for these people is: Hypocrite. And this is what Jesus called the pharisee's who continuously tested him.

Through our suffering of our consequences, God is able to show his love and compassion. It is not always the way we want it, if it were, then it would be us being God and God being our servant. Remember, that every shadow is cast by a light. Even in our darkest times, if we go to the light that is casting the shadow of darkness, would we remain in darkness, sadness, suffering? How do you know that your parents love you? When you are always being good, or when you make the wrong decision and find out that they have not abandoned you? Suffering consequences lets us know that God is still there, he has not abandoned us when we turn from him. God wants to provide everything for us and when we suffer, turning back to God, will remove what we call suffering. Somebody from the outside may view it still as suffering (you still have cancer, you still are bankrupt, etc..etc..etc..) but to the person walking with God, it is no longer suffering. It is the deference between adequate and overindulgence.

And to say God does nothing when he can do something shows perfect misunderstanding of Christianity. Let me say that again, perfect misunderstanding. The ultimate consequence of our bad decision is that we separate ourselves from God. God is not some being on a cloud, God is Love, Harmony, Peace, Patience, Justice, Righteousness and on and on. God is all those things we seek in our lives. And to be eternally separated from that which we seek for ourselves is the ultimate consequence, the ultimate suffering. Jesus preached the Kingdom, Gods Kingdom. And everything the Kingdom represents, the person who posed the question to begin with, wants. There is no suffering in the Kingdom but we can not enter that kingdom. The person who posed you the question wants Kingdom living. But he can not enter it, he can not see God the way he expects God to be, because God does not allow suffering in his Kingdom, because he has choose his ways over Gods ways. We can not enter that kingdom ever.

Yet God has done something for us so that we do not have to suffer the eternal and ultimate suffering of being separated from God. God did not sit idly by and say "Ooops you failed, you don't get to enter the kingdom, my kingdom, where there is no suffering." God gave us the key to the kingdom. God sent his son, himself, to bear the consequences of sin on our behalf so that we would never have to suffer the ultimate consequence, if we choose to. What has satan done beside ridicule you and try and keep you from making the choice to end and not have to face the ultimate suffering?

Now we are back to choice. God has done something about the suffering. You can choose Gods way and never suffer, or you can choose to do things your way and suffer. All the suffering you see is because of people choosing their way over Gods, it is called consequences of shutting out the father and author of your life. If you don't like it, then might I suggest you make a different choice and include God in your life?

 

[Lazarus]

I don't think this is a tough question or conundrum.

God suffers with us and does not delight in our suffering. Our suffering, or what we call suffering, comes as a natural consequence to not choosing God. If everybody everywhere choose God and followed God in perfect obedience, would there be any suffering at all?

No there would not. Sin would not be part of the equation, suffering the consequences of making bad decisions would not happen. That is the perfect world but, God did not create us to be soulless machines. God wants us to choose to love, to choose his ways over ours. And as a result of that ability to choose, we will often choose our ways, and we will suffer the consequences of our decisions.

Let me bring what I am saying down from a Godly point of view to a more human and less perfect example: As a parent, I hate watching my son make the wrong decision. When he chooses not to do his homework (or hand it in) he making choice, not me. I'm not forcing him into doing the right or wrong thing. And when he fails, he suffers the consequence. I can jump in and save him from those consequences like do his homework, hand it in, maybe somehow write the exams for him. Is that right? I have serious doubts that people who claim that while God can do something to stop suffering would be themselves willing to do everything for their own children and friends. They are most likely to be the ones who would say "suffer your own consequences, learn from your decisions, if sticking a needle in your eye hurts, don't do it a second time." The technical term for these people is: Hypocrite. And this is what Jesus called the pharisee's who continuously tested him.

I can't really disagree with this, the sticking point is that human suffering isn't as simple as sowing and reaping and sin and consequence.

It's not just "Oh, I hit my hand with a hammer and now it hurts, I better not do that again." Or "Well Jimmy, you jumped off the roof and broke your leg. Figure out you can't fly yet?"

It's "Oh, I slept with my secretary and now my wife wants a divorce and my kids hate me and I have an STD and my secretary's husband beat her half to death for cheating on him."
It's "The government sterilized me and forced me to abort my baby because I already had two kids."

It's people whose children are being stillborn or born with birth defects because the country that invaded their country used depleted-uranium projectiles that left radioactive material scattered around.

And then there's those children in Romania who have permanent and ongoing health problems because they were malnourished from birth due to - whatever, parental neglect, poverty, whatever.

What exactly did they do to deserve that, and what are they supposed to learn from that?

And there's the Auca Indians, the ones who killed Jim Elliot and those other missionaries. For hundreds of years they were living in that jungle eating monkeys and bananas and killing eachother. They didn't even know murder was wrong, and they certainly didn't know a thing about God.

How exactly did they have any choices? How could they have been choosing to go "their own way" over "God's way" when they didn't even know who God was?

The way I look at it, the world is a horrible place and God's hanging out in the clouds while we stumble around down here in a miserable slimy pit of our own making. The only thing we can really do is try to make it through life and be happy with what we have. And life's easier when we follow the Golden Rule. Too bad most people don't.

If there's really a hell(and I don't believe in the modern concept of hell), we're already there, man.

 

[Durruck]

It is not wrong to ask for help in times of need. Here's what James has to say on the situation of asking God for things - from James 4:

2You want something but don't get it. .... You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

7Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.

I love James. He's a sledgehammer. He really makes us stop and think about what we do, how we do it, why we do it. So here's the breakdown of the verses I posted:

verse 2: You don't get things you don't ask God to provide.
verse 3: If you ask but don't get things, you might be asking for selfish reasons, not to fulfill God's will. Ultimately God CAN give us anything, but He isn't going to give us stuff that will lead us away from Him.
verse 7: Submit to God's will, ignore the Devil's traps. Satan has no hold on those that rely on Jesus.
verse 8: Turn away from your sins, replace your desire to sin with your desire to experience God's purity
verse 9: mourn and wail in sincere sorrow for your sins (true repentance)
verse 10: recognize that our worth comes from God alone.

Gerbil mentioned Job, but didn't expand much on what we can learn by reading the book about the Godly man. Job was a wealthy and upright man - he followed God, he praised God. Satan decided to push God into letting Satan test Job. Satan theorized that Job only was a righteous man because of the blessings in his life; is Job suffered, his faith would falter.

Job lost his fortune, his farm, his family, and his health. His friends turned on him and demanded that Job repent of his sins....the sins that he didn't actually even commit. Job remained faithful through it all, and eventually was blessed when God decided that Satan's test obvious changed nothing about Job's nature.

What we learn is that the good people do suffer. It is not God that tests us or makes us suffer, but Satan and sin. As children of God, we are never promised fortune, prosperity, or health on this side of eternity. We are promised a lot of things, but a life free of suffering is NOT one of them.

 

[silverleaf]

Wow thanks, lots of things highlighted, and the answer I suppose is

-If it is in accordance with God's will, he will likely bail you out
-Daily bread VS daily cake - needs vs wants
-He already saved us from getting pwn't in Hell, personally not too sure about that one or whether it is eternal, its hard to find anything biblical on it that isn't on the debate by whoever it is debating lawl different churches sayin diff things I hate it when it comes to that.
-Obviously, should one be blessed, he shouldn't spend it all on selfish ambitions like the parable of the rich man who built more barns thing
-When God doesn't bail someone out, we never knows what worse things may happen if he had.

However like I pointed out before, there wouldn't be any suffering in an ideal world, but unfortunately humans are jerks who love to make others suffer. Oppression is one thing that sadly never goes out of fashion. Places like Best Korea where the leader squanders away the nation's wealth when people don't even have enough to eat. Why doesn't a big hammer drop out of the sky to kill him? God has the power to prevent great evil from happening, but he lets it happen anyway at the expense of a lot of people.

So now and also from experience, I KNOW God answers prayers. Sometimes when we arn't even that desperately in need.