How many ways to heaven?

[Dark Virtue]

water doesn't evolve, I'm not sure how it could be defined as evolution. If the world was just stationary bodies of water with plantlife around the parimeter, and the rest of the world unused desert, I would not see design.

You have yet to explain this design that you are referring to. You have also failed to explain how your god is the designer.

Can you, in the course of discussion, prove these things? If not, then yes, this discussion is a waste of time.

If you don't see design, we don't have a common ground to talk on. Its much like when Kant debated ethics.

You're the one claiming design. The burden of proof is on you. If you can't show design in the world, then just say so.

*sigh* here we go, this really looks like a waste of time for me, but if its important to you, I"ll humor you...
You focus only on one part of "plan". No, there is no cognitive plan, but there are physically coded plans. (directions on a map vs cognitive recall) The clams dna from day 1 says that if sand or any irritating substance for that matter enters the mouth, it is covered with a nacre substance. DNA has it all planned out.

If you're wasting your time, then STOP THE DISCUSSION so I can stop wasting mine.

Where are you getting this notion of "physically coded plans" from? This is one of those terms you are going to have to define.

I'm sorry, I missed where knowing nothing translates into a belief system

This isn't Seinfeld, it's not a belief system of nothing, it's a LACK of something. In this case, it's a LACK OF theism. It's really not that difficult.

can't be proven, or hasn't been proven to you?

Ok, now let's put the pieces together.

If I am a weak atheist, which is someone that LACKS belief in gods, then I have not been given proof for, or against, the existence of gods. You, however, claim to have proof FOR the existence of God. Therefore, the burden of proof is on you. If it CAN be proven, then by all means, DO SO. Anecdotal evidence is not PROOF. It does nothing to convince another person of your claim.

Since you like clear cut answers, No, proof of God's existence, or of his non-existence hasn't been proven to me. Can it be proven? YOU tell me.

 

[Master~Plan]

You're the one claiming design. The burden of proof is on you. If you can't show design in the world, then just say so.

If you don't see it, don't worry about it. Its just something millions of people are making up to throw you athiests. I could no more prove design as I could prove what color the sidewalk is.

Where are you getting this notion of "physically coded plans" from? This is one of those terms you are going to have to define.

DNA

In this case, it's a LACK OF theism. It's really not that difficult.

what if I thought that no belief in anything takes more faith than belief in God? But hey, I"m not athiest, call it what you will.

Since you like clear cut answers, No, proof of God's existence, or of his non-existence hasn't been proven to me. Can it be proven? YOU tell me.

Ah, it has been proven to me via first hand evidence. It can be proven. I can not prove it to you being some schmuck on the internet posting in a forum. Anything I say is not going to really mean anything because you dont even know me. Your going to have to personally find God.

 

[Dark Virtue]

If you don't see it, don't worry about it. Its just something millions of people are making up to throw you athiests. I could no more prove design as I could prove what color the sidewalk is.

If you couldn't prove design or a designer in the first place, why go through all this then?

DNA

If DNA is the set of plans, then who drafted those plans? Even if I went so far to grant you a designer, how would you go about proving it was your God and not some bored alien race?

what if I thought that no belief in anything takes more faith than belief in God? But hey, I"m not athiest, call it what you will.

First of all, there is a huge difference between faith and Faith.

Second, I don't think it takes more, I'd say it takes just as much.

Third, you pretty much described Nihilism, of which I am not a proponent. Nor am I a proponet of strong atheism, which is the polar opposite of theism.

Do I need to explain, yet again, what Weak Atheism is?

Ah, it has been proven to me via first hand evidence. It can be proven. I can not prove it to you being some schmuck on the internet posting in a forum. Anything I say is not going to really mean anything because you dont even know me. Your going to have to personally find God.

Hence anecdotal evidence, which is worthless in a scientific vein, or to anyone other than yourself.

 

[Master~Plan]

If you couldn't prove design or a designer in the first place, why go through all this then?

because I didn't know if you saw it or not. I was hopeing we might have a shred of something in common, but I guess we don't. We'll have to part ways seeing the same thing and deriving what it means. If I say the sidewalk we're staring at is mostly white, and you say its more black than white. Theres no more to be said.

If DNA is the set of plans, then who drafted those plans? Even if I went so far to grant you a designer, how would you go about proving it was your God and not some bored alien race?

I wouldn't have to go as far as to differentiate between a bored alien race and God, because the DNA is plans making the pearl origin of design.
I won't make you say it:"how do you know the plans were drafted?"
The same reason I don't look at a program on my computer, and say "thats a wierd glitch that turned out useful" In the same way, DNA is an intricate code.
From there you either see it or you don't.

First of all, there is a huge difference between faith and Faith.

Second, I don't think it takes more, I'd say it takes just as much.

Third, you pretty much described Nihilism, of which I am not a proponent. Nor am I a proponet of strong atheism, which is the polar opposite of theism.

Do I need to explain, yet again, what Weak Atheism is?

no, I guess its really moot anyway. If you want to believe by something by default, good luck with that I guess

Hence anecdotal evidence, which is worthless in a scientific vein, or to anyone other than yourself.

Its only anecdotal to some guy on the internet...

 

[Dark Virtue]

because I didn't know if you saw it or not. I was hopeing we might have a shred of something in common, but I guess we don't. We'll have to part ways seeing the same thing and deriving what it means. If I say the sidewalk we're staring at is mostly white, and you say its more black than white. Theres no more to be said.

But don't you see? We don't have to have anything in common to admit something is real. But to do so, we need PROOF, EVIDENCE and REASON. Unfortunately, you haven't given me any reason to believe the way to you do.

I wouldn't have to go as far as to differentiate between a bored alien race and God, because the DNA is plans making the pearl origin of design.
I won't make you say it:"how do you know the plans were drafted?"
The same reason I don't look at a program on my computer, and say "thats a wierd glitch that turned out useful" In the same way, DNA is an intricate code.
From there you either see it or you don't.

Then how do you know the designer is your God?

no, I guess its really moot anyway. If you want to believe by something by default, good luck with that I guess

I don't believe ANYTHING by default, a lack of a belief is NOT a belief. See my sig.

Its only anecdotal to some guy on the internet...

Incorrect. Anecdotal is worthless to everyone but the person who "experienced" it.

 

[Master~Plan]

But don't you see? We don't have to have anything in common to admit something is real. But to do so, we need PROOF, EVIDENCE and REASON. Unfortunately, you haven't given me any reason to believe the way to you do.

you didn't read at all what I said. My argument was on the premise of different reason. To me, you are bieng unreasonable, and to you, I"m sure I'm unreasonable. Read the last sentence of the quote^. does what I said earlier now make sense?

Then how do you know the designer is your God?

I only pray to one God, and He answered my prayers

Incorrect. Anecdotal is worthless to everyone but the person who "experienced" it.

Well hey look, I guess if we use your definition of anecdotal, my evidence isn't anecdotal after all

 

[Master~Plan]

I can not prove it to you being some schmuck on the internet posting in a forum.

ah, I crack myself up. I was reading over the past few posts, and it looks like I called you a schmuck. Honestly, I was sarcastically referring to myself as a schmuck just to set the record straight. (incase you took it for what it looks like)

 

[Dark Virtue]

you didn't read at all what I said. My argument was on the premise of different reason. To me, you are bieng unreasonable, and to you, I"m sure I'm unreasonable. Read the last sentence of the quote^. does what I said earlier now make sense?

Reason shouldn't be subjective.

I only pray to one God, and He answered my prayers

That does nothing to answer the question.

Well hey look, I guess if we use your definition of anecdotal, my evidence isn't anecdotal after all

How so?

 

[Dark Virtue]

ah, I crack myself up. I was reading over the past few posts, and it looks like I called you a schmuck. Honestly, I was sarcastically referring to myself as a schmuck just to set the record straight. (incase you took it for what it looks like)

Lemme guess, you got a warning?

 

[Azzie]

Tell me, DV, what kind of proof, exactly, do you need to believe that God exists? Examples would be great.

 

[Master~Plan]

How so?

My evidence does more than just me good. In person I can share with the people who know me and know my family.
Or when I say "Hey do you know Randy from the church down the street?", and they say "yeah, why?" I can say "oh because he had HIV for a couple months, don't worry though, God healed him after we prayed for him" and if they don't believe me I can just say," Go ask him about it, he'll show you the legal hospital test results."

Lemme guess, you got a warning?

no I didn't, its just the last thing I want is to be pointlessly offensive

 

[Dark Virtue]

My evidence does more than just me good. In person I can share with the people who know me and know my family.
Or when I say "Hey do you know Randy from the church down the street?", and they say "yeah, why?" I can say "oh because he had HIV for a couple months, don't worry though, God healed him after we prayed for him" and if they don't believe me I can just say," Go ask him about it, he'll show you the legal hospital test results."

Well I should have clarified, anecdotal evidence is worthless as evidence to everyone but yourself.

If you ask someone to independantly verify evidence you received from someone else, then it fails to be anecdotal, and becomes something else entirely. Now, if that person does NOT verify that evidence and chooses to use that information as "proof" then it remains anecdotal, and therefore, worthless as proof.

If you know of any sites that contain evidence of a situation like you described, I'd be very interested in taking a look at it. Documented proof of a miracle would be quite a find.

no I didn't, its just the last thing I want is to be pointlessly offensive

Well just as long as you're offensive with a point

No worries, I didn't take offense to it.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Tell me, DV, what kind of proof, exactly, do you need to believe that God exists? Examples would be great.

Good question.

If God is omniscient, the question shouldn't need to be answered. God would know precisely what it would take to flip my switch and make me believe.

 

[Master~Plan]

If you know of any sites that contain evidence of a situation like you described, I'd be very interested in taking a look at it. Documented proof of a miracle would be quite a find.

Yes, two hospital tests saying he had HIV, and one latter dated about a month saying he didn't pass for HIV is a extrodinary find. I regret to inform you that if all your looking for is nifty miracles, your going to be dissapointed. I wish I got a copy of the tests a couple years ago, but even if I did I don't think he would want all his personal information floating around the internet. If you seek God you will find him. The kingdom of Heaven is like a treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and sold all that he had so that he could purchase the field. God demands our whole lives. If you only seek miracles you will probably just be given the sign of Jonah.
On a side note, I think the internet is a great resource for a lot of things, but I wouldn't lean too heavily on a lot of it.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Oh well, I guess it'll just remain anecdotal evidence.

Don't worry, I am not placing my belief on a miracle.

But it would definately be a step forward.

Just for the record, I HAVE sought God, and I didn't find anything or anyone.

 

[Azzie]

Perhaps you're just looking in the wrong place. God isn't in the mind, nor is He found in words of other people alone; He's deeper than that.
Try asking God Himself. Anyone is able do it; it's just a matter of really doing it that counts. Give it a shot at God Himself; ask Him the questions you've asked us. For this, it doesn't matter if you believe Him to exist or not; just ask.

 

[Genesis1315]

Off topic

Sorry for missing that one DV. MP thank you for apologizing.

Gen

 

[Dark Virtue]

Perhaps you're just looking in the wrong place. God isn't in the mind, nor is He found in words of other people alone; He's deeper than that.
Try asking God Himself. Anyone is able do it; it's just a matter of really doing it that counts. Give it a shot at God Himself; ask Him the questions you've asked us. For this, it doesn't matter if you believe Him to exist or not; just ask.

Been there, done that.

I won't go through my religious history again, but suffice it to say, I considered myself a devout Christian for many years.

In the end, there was nothing I encountered to validify a belief in the existence of ANY god.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Off topic

Sorry for missing that one DV. MP thank you for apologizing.

Gen

No prob