Continual rejection and mockery of the Spirit. I heard a very good sermon buy a guy in Seatle who explained this very well.
Homosexuality and homosexual practice
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Continual rejection and mockery of the Spirit. I heard a very good sermon buy a guy in Seatle who explained this very well.
Neirai the Forgiven
Christian Guilds List Manager
Okay, but let me throw a monkey wrench at you:
Jesus's audience, when he mentions blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, happens to be the Pharisees. The Pharisees have just finished pointing out that Jesus has cast out demons "by the power of Satan, the master of demons."
Now, understand who the Pharisees were. They were very educated men, who knew their scriptures cold. They knew the Law, often by heart. They also quite possibly had a great breadth of Jewish theology.
So, assumedly, they should be able to realize by whose power demons were cast out. Should. But they misjudged, claiming that Jesus cast out the demons by Satan's power.
I'm going to go out on a small limb here and suggest that possibly, just possibly, the Pharisees could tell exactly whose power it was, namely God's, that set the afflicted free from the demonic influence. But they chose, politically, to decry it as being the power of Satan. A dire insult to the Holy Spirit if I've ever heard one.
Jesus's reaction is to point out that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not* be forgiven. Moreover, after this incident, Jesus refers to his accusers as a "brood of vipers."
Perhaps, I'd like to argue, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is in fact the act of accrediting an act that you know darn well to be of God (and therefore the power of the Holy Spirit) to someone or something else, or even worse, to Satan. Of course, I can't say for certain, but I'm always careful when I hear of a weird or strange thing the Christians are doing to make sure that I don't label it as sin or evil without very direct proof. I'd much rather call it weird or strange; God's ways are often weird or strange.
And yeah, this is off topic.
Edit: I forgot my footnote.
* Interesting food for thought: while i'm not a uber Greek scholar, I'd like to point out that the implication in Jesus's words that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven is not to suggest that it can not be forgiven, but rather that it will not be forgiven. Such a blasphemy is a strike against God's own divine essential character, and as such he will not forgive it. Maybe. Or maybe I'm wrong. But the implication is that such a sin will not be forgiven by choice, rather than by some sort of overarching constraint. As with all other punishments, however, God is free to act as he decides, and so one need not fear that they will be condemned by God without the full benefit of his Love and his Mercy.
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Captain_Tea
Active Member
I think these verses speak for themselves:
1Co 5:9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people--
1Co 5:10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
1Co 5:13 God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."
I think that the churches need to start cracking down on some of the other people listed above, as well as the homosexuals. Once you are in the body of Christ we need to be accountable to his body, the Church. If you are repentant then of these things then great, not to say there won't be an occasional failure, but if someone refuses to repent then they should be excommunicated until they show true repentance.
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Durruck
Pirate!
To a point, we do need to hold ourselves to a higher standard. But on the other hand...
Mt9:12 On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick."
Mt28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Jn8:7 "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
Jesus tells us that only the pure (and therefore, none of us!) have the right to condemn others. Jesus himself was accused of many things because of the company he kept and those he visited.
Then he tells us to go out into the world and spread the Good News. How can we tell people about Jesus' love, our salvation, if we don't talk to people because they're gay? Or because they're prostitutes? Or because they're white, black, red, green, or orange? Or because they're Cambodian, Mexican, or Swedish?
It's our duty to share what Christ did for us, and pass that story on to other sinners, so that they know they will be welcomed home as we were, just as the prodigal son was that Jesus talked about.
I've got my problems just like everyone else. I'm ashamed that I fall weak to the devil's traps and lies. Whether it be sex, drugs, alcohol, adultery, idolatry, greed, malice, gossip, rudeness, lying, or bad language... they're all sins. How can the church excommunicate.. when the rest of the body is guilty, too? If the church kicked out everyone that had problems, it'd be an awfully empty place.
We're told that it's not our actions, but His action that redeemed us. We can't be "good enough" on our own to get to Heaven. Even John reflects on his problems... "the things I want to do I do not do, but the things I do not want to do I do." John was admitting to us that he was a screw up! Yet still, Jesus hand-picked him to spread the gospels to the masses. Nowhere does it say, "spread the good news, except to (pick a group of people)"
I'm going to join Neirai on this one...
Show them love. That's what it's all about.
Mt9:12 On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick."
Mt28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Jn8:7 "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
Jesus tells us that only the pure (and therefore, none of us!) have the right to condemn others. Jesus himself was accused of many things because of the company he kept and those he visited.
Then he tells us to go out into the world and spread the Good News. How can we tell people about Jesus' love, our salvation, if we don't talk to people because they're gay? Or because they're prostitutes? Or because they're white, black, red, green, or orange? Or because they're Cambodian, Mexican, or Swedish?
It's our duty to share what Christ did for us, and pass that story on to other sinners, so that they know they will be welcomed home as we were, just as the prodigal son was that Jesus talked about.
I've got my problems just like everyone else. I'm ashamed that I fall weak to the devil's traps and lies. Whether it be sex, drugs, alcohol, adultery, idolatry, greed, malice, gossip, rudeness, lying, or bad language... they're all sins. How can the church excommunicate.. when the rest of the body is guilty, too? If the church kicked out everyone that had problems, it'd be an awfully empty place.
We're told that it's not our actions, but His action that redeemed us. We can't be "good enough" on our own to get to Heaven. Even John reflects on his problems... "the things I want to do I do not do, but the things I do not want to do I do." John was admitting to us that he was a screw up! Yet still, Jesus hand-picked him to spread the gospels to the masses. Nowhere does it say, "spread the good news, except to (pick a group of people)"
I'm going to join Neirai on this one...
Show them love. That's what it's all about.
Bingo.
We are ALL works in progress. Our job is to love people in Jesus' name. So many people see someone get saved and then they immediately begin telling them what changes they need to make in their lives. Unless your name is "Holy Spirit", that isn't your job. Allow Him to do what only He can do, in His time.
Captain_Tea
Active Member
Bingo.
We are ALL works in progress. Our job is to love people in Jesus' name. So many people see someone get saved and then they immediately begin telling them what changes they need to make in their lives. Unless your name is "Holy Spirit", that isn't your job. Allow Him to do what only He can do, in His time.
I agree with this, change doesn't happen overnight in most cases, but if they aren't bearing any fruit after many years it our job as brothers and sisters to lovingly show them that what they are doing is not right. Not beating them with scripture, but letting them know as lovingly as you can that when God says don't, what He's really saying is don't hurt yourself and those you love.
Shadowwing
New Member
With regards to homosexuality, I agree with the sentiment that it is a choice. It is, however, no worse than any other sin.
Homosexuals need to be reached just as fervently as everyone else.
Now, if there is a homosexual who boasts to be a Christian, then it's different. According to Paul, those in the Body who knowingly live a sinful lifestyle, should be "cast out." This seems very judgemental, and you'd be right. As Christians, we can't judge those outside the church because they don't have the same moral standards or baseline as we do. However, in the church, we have the responsibility to judge each other, out of love, in order to bring them back to a Godly lifestyle. This is not in reference to a "sin" but rather a "sinful lifestyle." We shouldn't be waiting with radar guns to catch the church goers who are speeding going home from church... 8)
Look at Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 5 1-13:
http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineSt...NavGo=5&NavNextChapter=>>&NavCurrentChapter=4
This is done out of love for the brother/sister, not out of a spiritually-haughty attitude. If the christian comes back and is repentant, we welcome them back with open arms.
Wow, intense for my second post here... 8)
Homosexuals need to be reached just as fervently as everyone else.
Now, if there is a homosexual who boasts to be a Christian, then it's different. According to Paul, those in the Body who knowingly live a sinful lifestyle, should be "cast out." This seems very judgemental, and you'd be right. As Christians, we can't judge those outside the church because they don't have the same moral standards or baseline as we do. However, in the church, we have the responsibility to judge each other, out of love, in order to bring them back to a Godly lifestyle. This is not in reference to a "sin" but rather a "sinful lifestyle." We shouldn't be waiting with radar guns to catch the church goers who are speeding going home from church... 8)
Look at Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 5 1-13:
http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineSt...NavGo=5&NavNextChapter=>>&NavCurrentChapter=4
This is done out of love for the brother/sister, not out of a spiritually-haughty attitude. If the christian comes back and is repentant, we welcome them back with open arms.
Wow, intense for my second post here... 8)
Captain_Tea
Active Member
Amen
ppar3566
New Member
Hi all. I am really glad this post came up as it has become an important issue for me and my wife as we now have some lovely friends who are gay. I have never really thought about the issue until experience made me confront the issue. So here is my 2 cents worth.
1. No there is no evidence that there is a gene for homosexuality. Having said that, there is no evidence that there is a gene for anything specifically. Rather, genes work in remarkably complex ways. The best we can say is that people with certain genes tend more likely to be homosexual than others. From here we have further complex relationships between genotype and phenotype and further more diffuse environmental influences. I suppose what I am saying is, from a purely scientific point of view, we are not at a position to know yet. If I have discovered anything over the last few it is that nothing is purely genetic or purely environmental (not even a persons height which most people would suggest is purely genetic – note that malnutrition leads to people being shorter than there genes will allow for).
2. I relation to whether it is a sin or not there are two major points of view that I can tell (I tend to think a) is more likely than b) but am willing to be convinced).
a. The bible refers to homosexuality as a sin (not the preference) consistently in both the old and New Testament, while other sins (i.e. eating pork) that were sins in the Old Testament are arguably not in the New. Therefore we can be fairly certain that it is still a sin.
b. The counter argument is that in both the Old and the New Testament periods, homosexuality was linked with paedophilia and this is what was objected to during the period. To be fair this is a very poor explanation of this argument and I am simply not able to give it better justice.
3. If it is a sin I don’t think, in light of the New Testament (and particularly Galatians), that you could seriously suggest it is a worse sin than any other. It is worth noting here that the ‘sin’ lists in the new testament more frequently refer to sins such as gossip or disunity more often than homosexuality and I do those other things every day (so if a homosexual is in trouble I am in real trouble). To be fair the sin lists in the New Testament tend to refer more to particularly relevant sins for the occasion of writing than the particular badness of these above all other sins (i.e. the list in the last chapter of Galatians tends to refer to sins that cause disunity which is what Paul is addressing in the letter.
4. To answer the last few points let me give an example of a friend of mine who is struggling with this very issue. He is a deeply devoted Christian and a homosexual. He believes he is going to hell but, in his words, try as he might he just can’t stop being gay (even though he has genuinely tried very hard). I think the bible’s overwhelming message to him is that God loves him and that we should be willing and able to help him with his difficulties, not by excluding him, but by bringing him into a community of believers who will love him no matter what.
Just as a quick end note. At least by the official international diagnosis manual for psychologists and other health professionals the DSM III and the DSM III-TR homosexuality is not a mental disorder and has not been clasified as such for many years. It is important to note the the american psychiatrist association who publishers the DSM have excluded homosexuality from this catagory because of the weight of scientific evidence against the conclusion of it as a mental disorder not because it was socially convienient to do so. Note that this has alot of revalence to the discussion but it is worth putting here.
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ajmucha
New Member
I hope this is not regarded as "forum necromancy" due to it being nearly 2 weeks since last posted..but this is my two bit, and i apologize if any of these ideas have been thrown out there already:
In regards to number 3: I believe that (Roughly) Jesus said that he who breaks one commandment is guilty of breaking them all. And by some sort of logical conclusion, in reference to practice of homosexuality, wouldn't the sin first be lust? And (slightly related) isn't anything that God tells us not to do, a sin? We had a sermon on worry, and it was mentioned that since Jesus said "Do not worry about tomorrow...", then worrying would be a violation of Jesus' commands to us. (Back on topic now)
I tend to think that modern media is throwing mud in the direction of Christians, becasue, if any of you have seen recent commercias, there's one (i dont remember the name of) but the actor was "rejected By EHarmony" for being homosexual.
This is a pseudo-story:
Many of you do not know this, but I have a friend very near and dear to me who lives in Texas, whose name is Hannah, and she is like my baby sister. One day I got a call from her, and she was literally in tears because a friend of hers, who for this purpose shall be called Katie, basically blew up at her on a MSN conversation. It is interesting to note that this is basically how it went (censored for language content). "What the has God ever done for me? How do you explain how three of my friends killed themselves in the past month!? How does that show that this 'mighty god' gives a about me or any of us?" Basically tha's how the whole rant went, she went off on my 'lil-sister' and has not been heard from since...from what I've heard (through certain connections of mine) this Katie basically become a cutter, wound up in an asylum twice, and is 'bisexual' with a heavy homosexual preference. I feel there is so little I can do, and I know Hannah has deep scars from that, losing a friend and all...I don't know what to say to her, and I don't know how to comfort her because she's a fraid of this former friend going to hell for what happened...i guess this is a dual story/prayer request...so yah...I'll shut up now..
In regards to number 3: I believe that (Roughly) Jesus said that he who breaks one commandment is guilty of breaking them all. And by some sort of logical conclusion, in reference to practice of homosexuality, wouldn't the sin first be lust? And (slightly related) isn't anything that God tells us not to do, a sin? We had a sermon on worry, and it was mentioned that since Jesus said "Do not worry about tomorrow...", then worrying would be a violation of Jesus' commands to us. (Back on topic now)
I tend to think that modern media is throwing mud in the direction of Christians, becasue, if any of you have seen recent commercias, there's one (i dont remember the name of) but the actor was "rejected By EHarmony" for being homosexual.
This is a pseudo-story:
Many of you do not know this, but I have a friend very near and dear to me who lives in Texas, whose name is Hannah, and she is like my baby sister. One day I got a call from her, and she was literally in tears because a friend of hers, who for this purpose shall be called Katie, basically blew up at her on a MSN conversation. It is interesting to note that this is basically how it went (censored for language content). "What the has God ever done for me? How do you explain how three of my friends killed themselves in the past month!? How does that show that this 'mighty god' gives a about me or any of us?" Basically tha's how the whole rant went, she went off on my 'lil-sister' and has not been heard from since...from what I've heard (through certain connections of mine) this Katie basically become a cutter, wound up in an asylum twice, and is 'bisexual' with a heavy homosexual preference. I feel there is so little I can do, and I know Hannah has deep scars from that, losing a friend and all...I don't know what to say to her, and I don't know how to comfort her because she's a fraid of this former friend going to hell for what happened...i guess this is a dual story/prayer request...so yah...I'll shut up now..
Durruck
Pirate!
I think you're correct - any sin makes us fall short of God's perfection.
Lust. (hetero- or homosexual)
Gossip.
Worry.
Hatred. Anger. Resentment
Blasphemy.
Lies.
Theft.
Pride of self.
Self-reliance.
The list goes on and on.
It doesn't matter which one (or ones) we do, we're all guilty. The Bible also tell us that there is no distinction between someone that covets and someone that murders. Without Jesus, all sinners will die and suffer eternal damnation. I think that Christians take a bad rap for being so overly anti-homosexual because it's a big part of our culture. But I think we should really focus on being anti-sin as a whole. I'm not condoning homosexuality, but I really don't think it's the worst of our problems.
I don't know what you can say to Hannah to help her. I think that we all stress about losing ones we care about deeply. It hurts to see a lot of my friends reject God, because I know that in the end, if they don't repent, our here-afters are forever separated. I don't think there's anything we can really do except just show them love. Be the lamp on the stand and hope that they search for the light before it's too late.
Lust. (hetero- or homosexual)
Gossip.
Worry.
Hatred. Anger. Resentment
Blasphemy.
Lies.
Theft.
Pride of self.
Self-reliance.
The list goes on and on.
It doesn't matter which one (or ones) we do, we're all guilty. The Bible also tell us that there is no distinction between someone that covets and someone that murders. Without Jesus, all sinners will die and suffer eternal damnation. I think that Christians take a bad rap for being so overly anti-homosexual because it's a big part of our culture. But I think we should really focus on being anti-sin as a whole. I'm not condoning homosexuality, but I really don't think it's the worst of our problems.
I don't know what you can say to Hannah to help her. I think that we all stress about losing ones we care about deeply. It hurts to see a lot of my friends reject God, because I know that in the end, if they don't repent, our here-afters are forever separated. I don't think there's anything we can really do except just show them love. Be the lamp on the stand and hope that they search for the light before it's too late.