Hi everyone please tell me what you think

[lightningstrike]

Please tell me honestly what you think. I won't get offended.

I want to know whether or not you think the claim that the Chinese Shangdi is identical to the Judeo-Christian God is a sound one, based on biblical, theological, historical and cultural considerations.

I would be grateful if you could offer some intelligent comments.

I don't think I have included every possible answer to the question. So please just post what you think if your viewpoint is not included.

I included the last two options considering there are non-Christians and atheists on this forum.

Thank you

 

[Watcher]

Yes, I think the Chinese did believe in the 'Creator of Heaven and Earth.' So did all the civilizations that came after the flood. The fact that there are flood traditions in virtually every civilization world wide is evidence of this.

 

[Avesther]

I have come across a few pages in a book that discusses the original sinitic language. It shows how pictograms of some words are made up of pictograms of other words in a logical order that would only be seen if they knew or worshiped God.

 

[Big J]

Gosh...Should be obvious what I voted...

With that said...my actual answer is somewhat more complicated. Suspending my non-belief for the moment, I find that China's worship is about equal to the Persian worship of Ahuramazda (Zoaroasterianism (SP?)).

Ergo, if the Chinese worshipped the one true god, then other monotheistic religious groups did as well.

Final thought...with all that given, why was Jesus not Chinese? God called the Jews as his chosen people, not the Jews and the Chinese.

 

[lightningstrike]

Quote[/b] ]Gosh...Should be obvious what I voted...  
With that said...my actual answer is somewhat more complicated.  Suspending my non-belief for the moment, I find that China's worship is about equal to the Persian worship of Ahuramazda (Zoaroasterianism (SP?)).

Ergo, if the Chinese worshipped the one true god, then other monotheistic religious groups did as well.

Final thought...with all that given, why was Jesus not Chinese?  God called the Jews as his chosen people, not the Jews and the Chinese.

Sorry, BJ, perhaps I did not realise you were an atheist.

You think the ancient Chinese worship of God is equal to Zoroastrianism. I beg to differ. Zoroastrianism is absolutely dualistic. Strictly speaking it is not monotheistic but bi-theistic. It believes in a force of good and a force of evil that have equal power and are independent of each other. The ancient Chinese belief is not like this. There is no power, good or evil, that is independent of Shangdi.

You said if the ancient Chinese worshipped the one true God, then all the other monotheistic religious groups did as well.

The interesting thing is that historically there has not been many cultures that had a monotheistic religious tradition, let alone a monotheism that is pure and does not involve idol-worshipping. The three main monotheistic religions, Christianity, Islam and Judaism, all came from the Judaic tradition. As far as I know, the ancient Chinese belief of Shangdi is the only true monotheistic religion outside the Judaic tradition. Zoroastrianism comes close, but as I said it is bi-theistic not monotheistic. Buddhism and Hinduism are obviously not monotheistic. The Japanese believes in the sun god which is an idol so their belief is not monotheistic either. Pre-Christian Europe believed in idols too. The Greek philosophers knew of an "unknown god", while the populace worshipped many idols. The ancient Egyptians and Babylonians were all polytheistic. The native peoples of America worshipped either the sun god similar to the Japanese or idols related to the earth. Similarly, the tribes of Africa also worshipped polytheistic idols.

Examining all the cultures of the world, past and present, I find that the ancient Chinese worship of Shangdi is the only true monotheism that is independent of the Judaic tradition. Now I find this very curious.

I believe all the nations of the world are descendants of Noah. However, it is not in man's nature to remain faithful to God. It is not in man's nature to have a religion that is purely monotheistic and involves no idols. This is why most religions in the world are not monotheistic. It is in man's nature to rebel against God. Even God's chosen people, the Israelites, have rebelled against God historically.

Therefore quite logically all the other non-Judaic cultures quickly fell away from worshipping the one true God after they were scattered from Shinar. But if this is the case, then why did the Chinese keep the tradition of monotheistic worship for more than a thousand years, even though they had no contact with the Jews during that time? What kept their monotheistic belief going? Why did they not fall away into polytheism and idol-worshipping like all the other cultures?

As for why God chose the Jews to prophesise the coming of Jesus Christ and why the person of Jesus Christ is Jewish not Chinese, well as I said I'm not stating that the ancient Chinese belief of God is equivalent to the Jewish belief or that the ancient Chinese knew about God as well as the Jews did, only that they were close. Perhaps the Jews were the most faithful to God and therefore God decided to let the person of Jesus Christ be a descendant of Abraham. But who God chooses is His prerogative. He has His reasons, and I am not going to question Him. But I think just because God called the Jews His chosen people does not mean that other peoples cannot know Him. (Though perhaps not as well)

I admit that the Bible does not directly mention the ancient Chinese worship of God. Nor have I ever commented that the Chinese were also the chosen people of God like the Jews. Now if I said that then it might indeed be heretical. But I do find it interesting that the ancient Chinese were able to keep to their monotheistic tradition for such a long time. Could it be possible that God also revealed something to the ancient Chinese even though it is not recorded in the Bible? I dare not say anything for certain on this. But I personally think that even though the Bible is the inspired Word of God, God's purpose of revealing the Bible to man is not to let the Bible function as a general encyclopedia. The Bible might not be a complete account of God's actions with the nations of man, but only those that are relevant to its central theme, which is Jesus Christ.

Now I don't know whether such an idea is biblically or theologically accurate. So please criticise me honestly lest I fall into real heresy.

 

[lightningstrike]

Quote[/b] ]I have come across a few pages in a book that discusses the original sinitic language.  It shows how pictograms of some words are made up of pictograms of other words in a logical order that would only be seen if they knew or worshiped God.

Well the original sinitic written language is not actually very different from the modern sinitic written language.

You are right. Each Chinese ideograph is a graphical representation of the meaning it conveys. But for thousands of years scholars have puzzled over the graphical construction of certain ideographs. They are not sure how the graphical representation of these ideographs are related to the actual meanings they convey. Yet many of these millennia-old uncertainties and puzzles can be explained with the help of the Bible.

 

[Big J]

Oh, no problem on the belief thing.

You make some very interesting points. I honestly cannot argue with them at all.

 

[Gyllis]

This is a very interesting question...and one I do not believe I am able to answer. However, we can't dismiss any other culture worshipping the one true God, just because the Jews were the chosen people. This is something that I have been questioning and wondering myself. Mainly because of the origins of Islam. Abraham is the father of the Islamic people, as much as the Jews. He was the father of Ishmael (even before fathering Isaac), but God's covenant was with Isaac and his descendants. However, Ishmael's descendants still worshipped God.

Now, the question is...what does God think about Islam? Should Ishmael and his descendants not be promised a relationship with God, even though it wasn't their fault? Maybe that was the reasoning behind Jesus being sent for all people, and not just the Jews. I believe that no matter who you are, or what your ancestory is. If you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and turn to Him and the one true Father God, then your ancestory and what they believed doesn't matter.

Sorry I got off the subject of the Chinese, but I just wanted to make a point of a group of people who weren't considered Jewish but still worship the same God. Though I do think that the questions brought up about such things are good questions, I don't believe they are important. I believe that we should be bringing everyone to Christ, no matter what they believe or their ancestors believed. I don't want to dismiss the question, for again...I believe it is a good question, but I don't believe we will ever know the true answer, unless God chooses to reveal it to us Himself...and even them will more than likely be while in Heaven with Him.

I don't want you to despise me for saying these things...in a way I don't want to discourage these types of discussions...but I just want everyone to make sure that we aren't losing our focus on our purpose and mission in life because we are too busy debating things that will probably never be answered and may not even be that important in the grand scheme of things. I hope you understand what I'm saying. Yes, this is a discussion forum...and discussing is what we should do...keep bringing up questions...maybe some will get us to thinking about ways we can witness and reach others for Christ. Some may even help us to grow ourselves.

Again, I'm sorry for my long post that seems to be off the subject. I wanted to put my two cents in on the question, but then I realized that it really isn't that important..for I realized myself that the questions I had about Islamic people don't really matter as long as those people know Jesus. And this comes from working with a Muslim. I believe this scenario works with all peoples, including the Chinese.

Just a thought....

 

[Vanaze]

It's odd, I've passed through this thread several times, to read and re-read it, but haven't put my two sense in yet.

I'm curious to see what other nations might have had direct influences from the God of Israel, if not followed Him!...

Hmm, I used to be really up on my ancestry, but one thing I can really remember is that there have been signs that the old celts, before Christianity reached them, worshipped in a monotheistic manner.

Perhaps I'll go dig out my old history books and such and make my own post about it.

Props to Lightning for being an inspiration to look for God in even the most unlikely of places.

*Cough* I feel a sermon coming on.......


Well, on second thought, i'll hold that sermonette, and go to bed. I have my last day of class tomorrow. w00t.