Grindhouse

Dark Virtue said:
There are worse sexual acts in the Bible, yet you consider it appropriate for Christians to read? :confused:
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Extremely good point. One event was that people stole someone's wife (maybe daughter), raped her, and sent a piece of her to all the tribes or something. And Lot's own daughters seduced him.

Not in that order, but still.
 
Well, Christians don't read about those events in the Bible to be - entertained. I think there's the problem. (But that's just my opinion! Back to square one again.)

C$, what happened(in my own words) was this guy "gave" these criminals his wife, and they treated her.. badly, so she died. Then the guy took his wife and cut her up and sent the pieces around to all the tribes to "gather the troops", as it were.
Then they went out and destroyed a rather large part of the tribe of Benjamin because of this one single incident. Then - they were all really sad about it....

To tell the truth, that story was completely confusing to me.
 
Dark Virtue said:
There are worse sexual acts in the Bible, yet you consider it appropriate for Christians to read? :confused:
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The sexual acts mentioned in the bible are not described. They are mentioned in the most simplified form. There purpose is not for entertainment, as Lazarus pointed out. In fact those instances are condemned in the bible. The whole point of mentioning them were to show how God disapproved of them. Example: David saw Bathesheba and lusted over her. He had her brought to him and had sex with her. Then he had the husband killed. The result was that the child that they had bore together died. That was the purpose behind mentioning what happened with Bathesheba.

Dark Virtue said:
Hmm..what use is a set of rules or a subjective code of morality dictated by God if, in the end, everyone thinks it's ok to "decide for themselves"? I never understood that.
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Dark Virtue, I could not agree with you more. What is the point? If we claim the Bible as our guidebook in this life, we need to follow it without saying, well I'll follow this part but not the rest, or I'll agree with everything but this. It's an all or nothing deal. Otherwise, we are just saying, "I'll accept everything I don't disagree with and not accept everything I don't agree with." At that point, the Bible is not a guidebook at all.
 
Dark Virtue said:
Hmm..what use is a set of rules or a subjective code of morality dictated by God if, in the end, everyone thinks it's ok to "decide for themselves"? I never understood that.
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People have a free will to do what they choose. That does not make the choices correct though. One day each person is going to stand before God and be held accountable for his or her actions.

As for the sexual content in the bible, it's pretty much already been mentioned, but it is not presented for entertainment. It also is not anywhere near as descriptive as modern day trash novels and reading the biblical text is not going to be anything like watching the images on screen.

Sex as intended by God is to be celebrated (as in Song of Solomon) by a husband and a wife as a gift from God. The purpose is not to entertain the masses as a show.
 
Lazarus said:
To tell the truth, that story was completely confusing to me.
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Just the one? :D

Strong Fortress said:
The sexual acts mentioned in the bible are not described. They are mentioned in the most simplified form. There purpose is not for entertainment, as Lazarus pointed out. In fact those instances are condemned in the bible. The whole point of mentioning them were to show how God disapproved of them. Example: David saw Bathesheba and lusted over her. He had her brought to him and had sex with her. Then he had the husband killed. The result was that the child that they had bore together died. That was the purpose behind mentioning what happened with Bathesheba.
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Not all...err...questionable...sexual acts in the Bible are condemned. That was my point. To use your example of David...he committed some pretty horrible acts, but he is still described as a "man after God's own heart." :eek:

Tolkien said:
As for the sexual content in the bible, it's pretty much already been mentioned, but it is not presented for entertainment. It also is not anywhere near as descriptive as modern day trash novels and reading the biblical text is not going to be anything like watching the images on screen.
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That doesn't mean there isn't some pretty questionable content in the Bible.

Sex as intended by God is to be celebrated (as in Song of Solomon) by a husband and a wife as a gift from God. The purpose is not to entertain the masses as a show.
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As I've said, that's not the ONLY type of sex included in the Bible.
 
Dark Virtue said:
Just the one? :D
Not all...err...questionable...sexual acts in the Bible are condemned. That was my point. To use your example of David...he committed some pretty horrible acts, but he is still described as a "man after God's own heart." :eek:
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David repented and was also punished for his sins. Aside from that, nobody is perfect except God. We are all sinners and all sins are equal in God's eyes.


Dark Virtue said:
That doesn't mean there isn't some pretty questionable content in the Bible.

As I've said, that's not the ONLY type of sex included in the Bible.
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Could you please provide us with examples?
 
I'm pretty sure he's referring to Song of Solomon, which is pretty racy once you get past the thees and thous and figure out exactly what it means. Of course, the sex is between a husband and his wife, which puts it in a completely different light than what you'd see in, say, Grindhouse. ;)
 
[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff;222448 said:
I'm pretty sure he's referring to Song of Solomon, which is pretty racy once you get past the thees and thous and figure out exactly what it means. Of course, the sex is between a husband and his wife, which puts it in a completely different light than what you'd see in, say, Grindhouse. ;)
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Exactally what I was thinking too and you are accurate with the fact that it is celebrated between husband and wife. And building off of WBK's comment, despite how racy Song of Solomon is, it is still not the same as watching sexual content on the screen or looking at pornographic pictures. The level of raciness is also nothing like what is in the modern smut novels.

I was hoping that DV would provide examples though. ;) It's pretty lame when a person says things along the lines of "the bible says" or "in the bible" but then doesn't back it up with context or reference. It's unfortunately typical though and there are a lot of preachers and "christian" writers that manage to get away with it. (sorry, a pet peeve of mine)
 
Oops, sorry, I let this thread slip by me :)

Ask and you shall receive!

This is for Lazarus too, who said he couldn't think of any immorality that wasn't condemned. Included are some examples that were not only condoned, but ORDERED by God.

For the sake of tactfulness, I won't go into detail, only list the Bible verses. They're pretty clearcut anyway.

Judges 21:10-24 NLT
Numbers 31:7-18 NLT
Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Deuteronomy 22:23-24
2 Samuel 12:11-14
Deuteronomy 21:10-14
Judges 5:30
Exodus 21:7-11
Zechariah 14:1-2
Genesis 30:14-17
2 Samuel 13:1-19
Genesis 38:13-29
Genesis 33:18 - 34:31
Esther 2:2-18
Isaiah 13:15-16
Genesis 6:9, 7:1, 9:20-25
Ezekiel 23: 19-21
II Samuel 6:20
Leviticus 20:10-11
Song of Solomon 7:11-13
Genesis 38:7-10
Genesis 16:1-4


Was that enough examples for you Tolkein? :)

The Skeptics Annotated Bible lists 184 sexual items in the Bible.
 
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Genesis 16:1-4

God did not condone Abraham's actions in any way! Look at all the trouble that "relationship" caused anyway. You reap what you sow.

Genesis 38:7-10

...where is the immorality here?

Song of Solomon 7:11-13

...immorality?

Leviticus 20:10-11

This is all condemnation - dunno why you listed it.

II Samuel 6:20

Yet again... where's the immorality?

Ezekiel 23: 19-21

Condemnation again, DV...

Genesis 6:9, 7:1, 9:20-25

First two have no connection to anything immoral... last one - I never really saw what was so wrong about what Ham did, so...

Isaiah 13:15-16

See Zechariah 14-2...

Esther 2:2-18

God didn't condone this!

Genesis 33:18 - 34:31

Uhm... God didn't condone this either - and kudos to Simeon and Levi, no matter what their cowardly father may have said.

Zechariah 14:1-2

See 2 Samuel 12: 11-14

Exodus 21:7-11

Question: Immorality?? :confused:

Judges 5:30

Yeah... a song mocking the Canaanite army...

Deuteronomy 21:10-14

Well... I've never found a place in the Bible where God condemned polygamy. It could be reasoned that He's against it, but verses like this -

2 Samuel 12:11-14

Is God condoning the actions of these people? Is He making them sin? No...
The way I look at it: David brought these things down on his own head.
He sinned by killing Uriah and taking Bathsheba.
His son Absalom sees what his father does and so acts even worse when he gets older.

Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Deuteronomy 22:23-24

Condemnation again, DV...

Numbers 31:7-18

Ah yes... killing the women prisoners. I believe it was so the Israelites wouldn't get STDs.

Judges 21:10-24

This entire story - about the man and his concubine, the men of Gibeah, the tribe of Benjamin... it never made even the slightest bit of sense to me.
Apparently the Israelites were an addle-brained bunch.

First: They slaughter one tribe.
Second: They have a giant mourn-fest because that same tribe is going to be exterminated.
Third: They slaughter all the men and their wives from another part of Israel and just hand over the unwed girls to the Benjamites.

...you win on this one, DV. What they did was completely irrational - and idiotic, imo.
I noticed that they swore two oaths in this section. Two oaths which caused the whole blasted problem.
Ergo: If an Israelite makes an oath... run for your life.

*is done*
 
Well, this is very interesting. I think what DV is pointing out is that there is alot of content that is unacceptable in our society, Also God did not prevent or condemn it. For instance, in Deuteronomy 21:10-14 it tells you how to go about taking the enemy women to be your wife. Then goes on to say if you do not "delight" her than you may set her free. The point is that in our society this is unacceptable, and rather immoral(Sp?). Also, i don't believe that it was condemned in the verse.
 
Lazarus, please note my use of the English language: "Included are some examples that were not only condoned, but ORDERED by God." Some, not ALL. All quotes weren't meant to show God condoning a particular act, nor were they all meant to show examples of immorality. They were, however, all meant to show an example of sexual content in the Bible, which was the crux of my argument. My list was meant as a response to several different posts, not just yours. Don't be so vain :)

See post #19 to see what got me started on this topic.

Lazarus said:
Genesis 16:1-4

God did not condone Abraham's actions in any way! Look at all the trouble that "relationship" caused anyway. You reap what you sow.

Genesis 38:7-10

...where is the immorality here?

Song of Solomon 7:11-13

...immorality?

Leviticus 20:10-11

This is all condemnation - dunno why you listed it.

II Samuel 6:20

Yet again... where's the immorality?

Ezekiel 23: 19-21

Condemnation again, DV...

Genesis 6:9, 7:1, 9:20-25

First two have no connection to anything immoral... last one - I never really saw what was so wrong about what Ham did, so...

Isaiah 13:15-16

See Zechariah 14-2...

Esther 2:2-18

God didn't condone this!

Genesis 33:18 - 34:31

Uhm... God didn't condone this either - and kudos to Simeon and Levi, no matter what their cowardly father may have said.

Zechariah 14:1-2

See 2 Samuel 12: 11-14

Exodus 21:7-11

Question: Immorality?? :confused:

Judges 5:30

Yeah... a song mocking the Canaanite army...

Deuteronomy 21:10-14

Well... I've never found a place in the Bible where God condemned polygamy. It could be reasoned that He's against it, but verses like this -

2 Samuel 12:11-14

Is God condoning the actions of these people? Is He making them sin? No...
The way I look at it: David brought these things down on his own head.
He sinned by killing Uriah and taking Bathsheba.
His son Absalom sees what his father does and so acts even worse when he gets older.

Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Deuteronomy 22:23-24

Condemnation again, DV...

Numbers 31:7-18

Ah yes... killing the women prisoners. I believe it was so the Israelites wouldn't get STDs.

Judges 21:10-24

This entire story - about the man and his concubine, the men of Gibeah, the tribe of Benjamin... it never made even the slightest bit of sense to me.
Apparently the Israelites were an addle-brained bunch.

First: They slaughter one tribe.
Second: They have a giant mourn-fest because that same tribe is going to be exterminated.
Third: They slaughter all the men and their wives from another part of Israel and just hand over the unwed girls to the Benjamites.

...you win on this one, DV. What they did was completely irrational - and idiotic, imo.
I noticed that they swore two oaths in this section. Two oaths which caused the whole blasted problem.
Ergo: If an Israelite makes an oath... run for your life.

*is done*
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Me - vain? :eek:

Here, ccgr - ccn - why are atheists so condescending on forums?

*Is put to shame by DV's next post declaring that he isn't an atheist or something like that... yep, there they go again.*
 
Uh...it's from a song, chill out :P

Carly Simon anyone? "You're so vain...you probably think this song is about you...lalala." I'll try to keep my references to this decade :)

Why are Christians so touchy and so eager to pull out the persecution card?

Touche' mon ami.
 
I dunno - could be because they are human. (Atheists, Buddhists, Hindus and Wiccans can be touchy too, you know...)

A song? Ah! That explains it - I probably wouldn't even have known it if it had been from this decade.
 
I started doing some research on the verses last night. First of all I'd like to say that it's a cowardly thing to simply post chapter and verses without including the actual verses. It really appears that the references were most likely copied and pasted from a quick internet search.

The short answer is that they're all being taken out of context, and in the cases of the NLT references, they're being pulled from a poor translation of the bible. The Living Bible is a paraphrase which is a problem, but the NLT is a version of the Living Bible that has been revised and revised and revised... It's safer to stick with the solid respected translations. The other thing I noticed from the little bit of reading I did last night was that in several of the verses, the sexual content is assumed.

There are passages where it says that the "virgins" or women were taken. In a couple of those places it also includes children and livestock. If one were to assume that sexual activity were condoned with the women, then it would also have to include the children and livestock since they are mentioned in the same verse. (please note my sarcasm in that sentence). Going to a more logical assumption, I would point out that they did take women as servants.

You also need to know that the book of Judges talks about how the Israelites acted on their own apart from God. It shows how twisted human's can be when men act of their own will rather than God's. Please take the time to read the last verse of Judges (which was conviently omitted from the references).

"In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes." Judges 21:15

Clearly their acts were NOT condoned by God.

I'll post more later when I have time to sift through the information in more detail.

Just to touch briefly on the "crux" of your argument, I still am unable to see how the "sexual" content of the bible is bad and graphic in comparison to watching sexual content on television. Your arguments are weak and serve only to show your ignorance of scripture.
 
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How, exactly, am I ignorant of scripture? It is what it is. Problems arise when you start trying to read between the lines and infer things that aren't there. I'm a proponent of letting the text speak for itself.

I think you may be jumping the gun and attacking me unnecessarily. When I first started my post I had every intention of including not only the verses, but commentary as well. If you refer to my post, you will see the following at the bottom, "Last edited by Dark Virtue : 05-09-2007 at 08:54 PM. Reason: Edited to remove verse descriptions that may be offensive to some readers." Several times I've posted things that I felt weren't offensive, only to have certain individuals take offense. I thought I'd take the high road and do my best not to offend anyone from the get go. I'll just assume that you didn't read that part when you accused me of being cowardly.

As I said to Lazarus, every verse was not meant to serve as an example for one specific thing, they were merely meant to show examples of sexuality in the Bible. You can't compare the sexuality of the Bible to modern day television for two reasons: 1)They are completely different media. While you can use electronic devices to monitor/prevent what your kids watch on TV, there are no such items to prevent a minor from reading the Joy of Sex at your local library. Apples and oranges. 2)The Bible is composed of writings that are thousands of years old. Even comparing literature to literature, you can't compare the Bible to Harlequin romance novels. You have to take it all in context.

Now if you'd like to discuss something SPECIFIC, I'd be more than happy to, but I suggest you tone down your attitude. You've called me a coward and called me ignorant. That, my friend, is a violation of the TOS, namely the parts that constitute "defamation", "slander", "insults" and "giving unsolicited negative interaction with, towards or upon another member". Not only that, but it was completely unwarranted.
 
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