God is Merciful and loving

timor

New Member
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]2 Kings, 2:23-24.

23: And he (Elisha) went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
24: And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."

Can someone please justify this to me? How can such an occurance ever be justified? If I were to walk down the street, be insulted by kids, and proceed to slit all of their throats, would God smile upon me? Why isn't this kind of filth taught in Sunday school to Kindergarteners?

Please, attempt to justify this to me, and attempt to justify an absolute morality. I've heard many apologies -- the kids were a gang...so what? The "little children" were actually "young men"...again, so what? It's out of context -- ok, then read the verses before and after those two. They shed no light whatsoever upon the event in verses 23-24.

So, since no one has yet addressed the Biblical contradictions, let's address a simple, two-verse occurance in the Bible.
 
Elisha was a prophet of God and the country knew that. prophets where to be treated with High respect and Honor because they represent God and not themselves ( ha like a Christian should be doing..) and basicly these kids were "mocking" the man that God had placed in this time for His service. The kids knew how they should treat him. they choose to ignore God's warnings and disobey His laws, and for that they were punished accordingly (with death which is the punishment for all sin).

Yes i was taught this in Sunday school, infact i remember this from right about the 2nd grade when i was learning about Sampson and the donkeys jaw bone. Also about the same time that i learned about what Levi and His brothers did when they had an entire town circumsized and then murdered. all of these things God did not punish directly, infact the Levitical tride are the priest, although who are we as mere men to question God, His ways are higher than ours.
 
This justifies the slaughter of 42 small children? Because this man was a prophet? That's absolutely disgusting, I'm sorry.
 
Muhammad did much worse.... and he was only a man... Why not look at Islam and see how red their hands are,

Its the samething that happened in many countries during the dark ages and even in communist countries, if someone (doesnt matter who) speaks out against the leader or the appointed person, then they are killed, its a fact of Life. unlike other Religions we are not affraid to show that God is 100% in controll and if you disobey Him whether 5 or 55 you will recieve the punishment for your crimes
 
Looking at Mohammud does not justify the ways of Yahweh...let's not try to divert attention, eh?

Regardless, I will never bow down to a God that would condone such a despicable act. This just goes to show that with Christianity, morality is non-existant -- if God says somethings ok, it is, be it eating shellfish or killing those who look at your sideways.
 
Matthew Henry:

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Here is a curse on the youths of Bethel, enough to destroy them; it was not a curse causeless, for it was Elisha's character, as God's prophet, that they abused. They bade him "go up," reflecting on the taking up of Elijah into heaven. The prophet acted by Divine impulse. If the Holy Spirit had not directed Elisha's solemn curse, the providence of God would not have followed it with judgment. The Lord must be glorified as a righteous God who hates sin, and will reckon for it. Let young persons be afraid of speaking wicked words, for God notices what they say. Let them not mock at any for defects in mind or body; especially it is at their peril, if they scoff at any for well doing. Let parents that would have comfort in their children, train them up well, and do their utmost betimes to drive out the foolishness that is bound up in their hearts. And what will be the anguish of those parents, at the day of judgment, who witness the everlasting condemnation of their offspring, occasioned by their own bad example, carelessness, or wicked teaching!

John Wesley:

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Verse 23. To Beth-el - To the other school of prophets, to inform them of Elijah's translation, and his succession to the same office; and to direct, and comfort, and stablish them. Children - Or, young men: as this Hebrew word often signifies. It is more than probable they were old enough to discern between good and evil. The city - Beth-el was the mother-city of idolatry, where the prophets planted themselves, that they might bear witness against it, and dissuade the people from it; though, it seems, they had but small success there. Mocked him - With great petulancy and vehemency, as the word signifies; deriding both his person and ministry, and that from a prophane contempt of the true religion, and a passionate love to that idolatry which they knew he opposed. Go up - Go up into heaven, whither thou pretendest Elijah is gone. Why didst not thou accompany thy friend and master to heaven? Bald-head - So they mock his natural infirmity, which is a great sin. The repetition shews their heartiness and earnestness, that it was no sudden slip of their tongue, but a scoff proceeding from a rooted impiety and hatred of God and his prophets. And very probably it was their usual practice, to jeer the prophets as they went along the streets, that they might expose them to contempt, and if possible drive them out of their town. Had the abuse done to Elisha been the first offense of the kind, they might not have been so severely punished. But mocking the messengers of the Lord, was one of the crying sins of Israel.

Verse 24. Cursed them - Nor was this punishment too great for the offense, if it be considered, that their mocking proceeded from a great malignity of mind against God; that they mocked not only a man, and an ancient man, whose very age commanded reverence; and a prophet; but even God himself, and that glorious work of God, the assumption of Elijah into heaven; that they might be guilty of many other heinous crimes, which God and the prophet knew; and were guilty of idolatry, which by God's law deserved death; that the idolatrous parents were punished in their children; and that, if any of these children were more innocent, God might have mercy upon their souls, and then this death was not a misery, but a real blessing to them, that they were taken away from that education which was most likely to expose them not only to temporal, but eternal destruction. In the name - Not from any revengeful passion, but by the motion of God's Spirit, and by God's command and commission. God did this, partly, for the terror and caution of all other idolaters and prophane persons who abounded in that place; partly, to vindicate the honour, and maintain the authority of his prophets; and particularly, of Elisha, now especially, in the beginning of his sacred ministry. Children - This Hebrew word signifies not only young children, but also those who are grown up to maturity, as Gen. xxxii, 22, xxxiv, 4, xxxvii, 30, Ruth i, 5.

John Calvin (from the Geneva Bible):

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Perceiving their malicious heart against the Lord and his word, he asks God to avenge the injury done to him.

C.I. Scofield:

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The word na'ar (translated "little children" v.23) specifies no definite age. It is used of Joseph at seventeen (Gen. 37:2), and of Benjamin (Gen. 43:8) and Absalom (2 Sam. 18:5). Thus here the HEbrew word might be rendered "youths" or "young men." The word bq` (translated "tare") indicates the infliction of serious wounds but does not mean kill or destroy. The gravity of the offense is seen from these factors: 1. the young men mocked the features of Elisha, the man of God; 2. by saying, "Go up, thou bald head!" they were scoffing at Elija's translation (v.11), the offense in itself ipmlying that the offenders were above the age of childhood; and 3. in ridiculing the man of GOd, they were guilty of blaspheming the God he represented.

In the words of "Terrible" Terry Tate, office linebacker (if you haven't seen those commercials, you have to check them out), I can imagine God saying to the scoffers: "If you can't take the PAIN, don't play the GAME. WHOOO!!!" Makes sense to me, I guess it wouldn't to someone who doesn't believe in God though.
 
Timor, I have two questions. Do you think God's power would be respected if he didn't act out against a group of people harassing one of His chosen prophets? And how, exactly, do you think God should have acted against these people? Keep in mind the times and normal punishments. The kids could've been whipped forty times minus one; I'd personally rather be ripped to shreds by some bears than to survive such a lashing.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Keep in mind the times and normal punishments.

And the normal punishments were set down by God. Arguing that God was justified in doing this because normal punishments were already harsh doesn't work when you consider that things were already harsh because that's the way God made them.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Is there a reason he cannot be both?

I have difficulty reconciling the concept of justice and mercy with a God who both encourages and carries out mass murder. Perhaps it's just me...?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Drelin @ Mar. 30 2004,9:30)]Perhaps it's just me...?
Perhaps? No, it IS, just you and the others who think likewise. While God does love people, He hates sin. Those who purposely go about it without no repentance and willing ignorance, He will punish, and the penalty He has put on that is death. His mercy is for those that accept, which is where you, timor, Grand Master, and a few others stumble at since you have no experience of it and choose to reject it.
 
Dr. Tek, since you don't actually know me or my background, I'll thank you not to make assumptions about my beliefs. Has is come so far that people who take a step back and objectively look and what and why they believe are branded heathens?

Anyway, on with the show... What I was talking about is illustrated fairly well by these rather famous verses. I'm sure you're familiar with them?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]1Sa 15:2  Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
1Sa 15:3  Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

This is just and merciful?
 
Just in that the punishment for their actions was given. Merciful in that they did have time to repent, this was not an immediate retaliation, as is stated in the remember part of the first verse. Your use of htis verse disproves your argument rather then support it. You dont like this, tough, its the way things are. God is who He is, not who you want Him to be.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Just in that the punishment for their actions was given. Merciful in that they did have time to repent, this was not an immediate retaliation, as is stated in the remember part of the first verse.

For this particular time period, if a nation had in the past been nasty, the appopriate and just reaction would to be to wait an indeterminant period of time and then go and wipe them out - completely? Again, the infants and even newborn babies were responsible and needed to repent?

I take it America would be justified in, right now, nuking major and densely populated cities in Iraq, Germany, Vietnam or any other nation that had given it grief in the past?
 
People are born sinful, so yes IRT the first statement.

How does an ungodly nation such as the US even compare to a nation God called His own. It doesnt, so you have no valid comparison to mak there.
 
um, you can't really tell God he is unjust for killing, because he died the worst death of anyone....
You deny that Jesus was perfect, or even that he existed, and then cry about how in the Bible you found to be so unrelyable, that God sent down his judgement on some unrepentant people. Accept all of it, or none of it...
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (TastyWheat @ Mar. 29 2004,10:38)]Matthew Henry:

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Here is a curse on the youths of Bethel, enough to destroy them; it was not a curse causeless, for it was Elisha's character, as God's prophet, that they abused. They bade him "go up," reflecting on the taking up of Elijah into heaven. The prophet acted by Divine impulse. If the Holy Spirit had not directed Elisha's solemn curse, the providence of God would not have followed it with judgment. The Lord must be glorified as a righteous God who hates sin, and will reckon for it. Let young persons be afraid of speaking wicked words, for God notices what they say. Let them not mock at any for defects in mind or body; especially it is at their peril, if they scoff at any for well doing. Let parents that would have comfort in their children, train them up well, and do their utmost betimes to drive out the foolishness that is bound up in their hearts. And what will be the anguish of those parents, at the day of judgment, who witness the everlasting condemnation of their offspring, occasioned by their own bad example, carelessness, or wicked teaching!

John Wesley:

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Verse 23. To Beth-el - To the other school of prophets, to inform them of Elijah's translation, and his succession to the same office; and to direct, and comfort, and stablish them. Children - Or, young men: as this Hebrew word often signifies. It is more than probable they were old enough to discern between good and evil. The city - Beth-el was the mother-city of idolatry, where the prophets planted themselves, that they might bear witness against it, and dissuade the people from it; though, it seems, they had but small success there. Mocked him - With great petulancy and vehemency, as the word signifies; deriding both his person and ministry, and that from a prophane contempt of the true religion, and a passionate love to that idolatry which they knew he opposed. Go up - Go up into heaven, whither thou pretendest Elijah is gone. Why didst not thou accompany thy friend and master to heaven? Bald-head - So they mock his natural infirmity, which is a great sin. The repetition shews their heartiness and earnestness, that it was no sudden slip of their tongue, but a scoff proceeding from a rooted impiety and hatred of God and his prophets. And very probably it was their usual practice, to jeer the prophets as they went along the streets, that they might expose them to contempt, and if possible drive them out of their town. Had the abuse done to Elisha been the first offense of the kind, they might not have been so severely punished. But mocking the messengers of the Lord, was one of the crying sins of Israel.

Verse 24. Cursed them - Nor was this punishment too great for the offense, if it be considered, that their mocking proceeded from a great malignity of mind against God; that they mocked not only a man, and an ancient man, whose very age commanded reverence; and a prophet; but even God himself, and that glorious work of God, the assumption of Elijah into heaven; that they might be guilty of many other heinous crimes, which God and the prophet knew; and were guilty of idolatry, which by God's law deserved death; that the idolatrous parents were punished in their children; and that, if any of these children were more innocent, God might have mercy upon their souls, and then this death was not a misery, but a real blessing to them, that they were taken away from that education which was most likely to expose them not only to temporal, but eternal destruction. In the name - Not from any revengeful passion, but by the motion of God's Spirit, and by God's command and commission. God did this, partly, for the terror and caution of all other idolaters and prophane persons who abounded in that place; partly, to vindicate the honour, and maintain the authority of his prophets; and particularly, of Elisha, now especially, in the beginning of his sacred ministry. Children - This Hebrew word signifies not only young children, but also those who are grown up to maturity, as Gen. xxxii, 22, xxxiv, 4, xxxvii, 30, Ruth i, 5.

John Calvin (from the Geneva Bible):

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Perceiving their malicious heart against the Lord and his word, he asks God to avenge the injury done to him.

C.I. Scofield:

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The word na'ar (translated "little children" v.23) specifies no definite age. It is used of Joseph at seventeen (Gen. 37:2), and of Benjamin (Gen. 43:8) and Absalom (2 Sam. 18:5). Thus here the HEbrew word might be rendered "youths" or "young men." The word bq` (translated "tare") indicates the infliction of serious wounds but does not mean kill or destroy. The gravity of the offense is seen from these factors: 1. the young men mocked the features of Elisha, the man of God; 2. by saying, "Go up, thou bald head!" they were scoffing at Elija's translation (v.11), the offense in itself ipmlying that the offenders were above the age of childhood; and 3. in ridiculing the man of GOd, they were guilty of blaspheming the God he represented.

In the words of "Terrible" Terry Tate, office linebacker (if you haven't seen those commercials, you have to check them out), I can imagine God saying to the scoffers: "If you can't take the PAIN, don't play the GAME. WHOOO!!!" Makes sense to me, I guess it wouldn't to someone who doesn't believe in God though.
Absolutely none of this justifies the use of mortal violence upon 42 small children by an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God.

As for the "young men" explanation, I offer you this:
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]II Kings 2:23

Definition of the Hebrew word used there for "little":

young, small, insignificant, unimportant

1. small
2. insignificant
3. young
4. unimportant

King James Word Usage - Total: 101
small 33, little 19, youngest 15, younger 14, least 10, less 3, lesser 2, little one 2, smallest 1, small things 1, young 1
From http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicon....ion=kjv

Definition of the Hebrew word used there for "children":

1. a boy, lad, servant, youth, retainer
1. boy, lad, youth
2. servant, retainer

King James Word Usage - Total: 238
young man 76, servant 54, child 44, lad 33, young 15, children 7, youth 6, babe 1, boys 1, young 1
From http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicon....ion=kjv

If it said just "children", then it would be ambiguous. However, it seems to me that "little" modifies "children" enough that we should conclude that it's probably talking about little kids, not a band of unruly teenagers.

But, even if it had been a gang of dangerous 18-year-olds, they were calling the old guy names. They weren't even throwing sticks or stones. For this, a just God, a loving God, a merciful God sends out a bear to kill them all? Makes a lot of sense to me...
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ([toj.cc]El Jefe[sww:D] @ Mar. 30 2004,1:02)]Timor, I have two questions. Do you think God's power would be respected if he didn't act out against a group of people harassing one of His chosen prophets? And how, exactly, do you think God should have acted against these people? Keep in mind the times and normal punishments. The kids could've been whipped forty times minus one; I'd personally rather be ripped to shreds by some bears than to survive such a lashing.
Again, nothing justifies the use of violence, be they small children or not, by a both omnipotent and omnibenevolent god. So often today do we here the chime "Violence is not the answer!" Yet God, because one of his prophets gets called a "baldhead", feels it appropriate to rip 42 small children to shreds with two bears. Its interesting that these two bears were even able to get all 42...you'd think some could have run. Maybe they were super-bears...but alas, I digress...
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Dr. Tek @ Mar. 30 2004,9:45)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Drelin @ Mar. 30 2004,9:30)]Perhaps it's just me...?
Perhaps? No, it IS, just you and the others who think likewise. While God does love people, He hates sin. Those who purposely go about it without no repentance and willing ignorance, He will punish, and the penalty He has put on that is death. His mercy is for those that accept, which is where you, timor, Grand Master, and a few others stumble at since you have no experience of it and choose to reject it.
This is utter bull poopoo. As I've said before, Yahweh should never be justified in acting the way he did, but surely you concede that this very moment there exist people who have committed/are committing terribly heinous crimes -- where are the she-bears? Why do 42 little children warrant being shredded to death, but serial murderers and rapists do not? Is it because the 42 little children insulted a prophet of God? Why does it matter who the sin is committed against if God hates sin so much? And where was the kids' chance for mercy? All of your arguments fall miserably short and fail.

As for God's "mercy", if this is how God shows his loving mercy, I'll take my chances with the devil...at least he's not omnipotent, and at least he doesn't pretend to be omnibenevolent.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Master~Plan @ Mar. 30 2004,11:21)]um, you can't really tell God he is unjust for killing, because he died the worst death of anyone....
You deny that Jesus was perfect, or even that he existed, and then cry about how in the Bible you found to be so unrelyable, that God sent down his judgement on some unrepentant people. Accept all of it, or none of it...
I don't accept it, Master -- however, I'm arguing from the position of acceptance to prove points. If this is true, then what? By doing this, we can point out problems, inconsistences, and absurdities in the Bible.

So, two wrongs make a right? Because the Romans killed Jesus, Yahweh in the OT can kill groups of small children and entire nations? The moral rationalization you people engage in is absolutely frightening.
 
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