These things are 'questionable' to you only because you have been taught the complete opposite, likewise I feel the same way about Protestantism, as a whole I think it's great that it leads people to Jesus Christ their Savior, and to God the Father. Since I was raised in the Catholic faith I don't know how/why you believe you sect I guess. I however don't spam every Christian message board about how Protestants are real Christians b/c their beliefs are different than Catholics ... This happened in the old .fls. forums too and everywhere else I've ever checked with a 'Christian' message board.[b said:
Ok so you don't believe in the communion wafer being turned into the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ or you don't accept Purgatory or Papal Infallibility or whatever, and I fail to see how Protestants claim that an individual such as Martin Luther was only person in the past 1000 years to hit Christianity on the head ... I fail to see how any of this is important. Why is there this need that we as Christians divide ourselves? Why can't it be about faith in Jesus Christ as the only Son of God the Father instead of being about HOW we praise God or what name we call ourselves when we do it?
[b said:
Big J might have been the only person to read this thusfar and understand my point ... take a second away from thinking about why you don't like the Catholic CHURCH and think about why you apply the same dislike to its followers ... Honestly I almost feel condemned being here as a Catholic, and most Catholics (my age at least) are afraid of Protestants b/c it seems like any time we try to explain our views we are condemned.
Thaddius
Member
[b said:
Its not that simple 4top. The Bible was given to us for a reason. Things done outside of it that are considered doctrine are wrong. Based on what you said above, Jehoviahs witnesses, Mormons, Church of the Creator, all those would be our brothers in arms as well.
Now don't get me wrong. I am not saying that Catholicism is in the same league as those cults. I'm saying that just because a church professes to believe in Christ does not make them a follower of Christs teachings.
But, purgatory, isnt in the Bible. Infalable pope, isnt in the Bible. Mary being as important to salvation, isnt in the Bible. Praying to saints, isnt in the Bible.
As for Martin Luther, all he did was point out what the Catholic church at that time was doing wrong. his 95 theses, which was nailed to the church door, pointed out things tha were non scriptural. This started the revolution because the Pope at that time would not change. The 95 These
Now since the Vatican II, things have started to change somewhat, but there are still alot of unanswerable questions. If you can answer them, that would be great. But as believers, it is our place to question everything we are taught against scripture. It doesnt matter what you call yourself, understand what you believe and why you believe it.
Don't take these as personal attacks 4top, it isnt meant that way. I for one seek to understand where you are coming from believing this. What basis do you believe what you do if the Bible isn't what you follow? (or if it is, where do you get the stuff Kidan mentioned above that you follow) How do you know the Pope is infallable?
Cory
LionOfJudah
Member, Dreamcast Fishing Guru
Yes but we do base alot of the Protestant faith on that MartinLuther wasnt wrong, or that anyone else that has sinse come along wasnt WRONG.
Now then i am a Protestant
My Dads family is Catholic
I love them, personally YES i do see somethings wrong in the Catholic Church, just like i see wrong in the Protestant church. Also you have denominations in both, so doing a blanket WRONG/Judgement is just plain retarded in my oppion. 4Top is right, We need to focus in on our Love for Jesus Christ, and present the church as united, we may disagree on somethings, but its my oppion that we should stand united.
All churchs are wrong, no matter how much you think or want to believe they are right, they are doing something wrong.
So get over your bickering kiss and make up, Catholic Protestant same religion, different denomination
Now then i am a Protestant
My Dads family is Catholic
I love them, personally YES i do see somethings wrong in the Catholic Church, just like i see wrong in the Protestant church. Also you have denominations in both, so doing a blanket WRONG/Judgement is just plain retarded in my oppion. 4Top is right, We need to focus in on our Love for Jesus Christ, and present the church as united, we may disagree on somethings, but its my oppion that we should stand united.
All churchs are wrong, no matter how much you think or want to believe they are right, they are doing something wrong.
So get over your bickering kiss and make up, Catholic Protestant same religion, different denomination
If it were dealt with as questioning that would be one thing, however, when it is presented in a way that seems mocking or hateful that is when I do take it personally b/c I do not treat your faith this way.
Refering to papal infallibility (or any doctrine of the Church) as 'poo' I believe it was, I find out of line ... I'm sorry, but I do that is how it is, it's comments like that Thad, not questions like 'Where was papal infallibility derived from? or what is the true meaning of papal infallability?' I don't mind open exploration of a faith all I'm asking is that you enter that exploration with an open mind instead of going into it knowing your right and regardless of what anyone says to the contrary they are wrong, I admit I'm not a scripture scholar so thus asking me to argue with you where there are specific quotes in the bible that support specific things in my faith I can't do. To me the Bible is the Word of God passed through men and as such needs to be interpreted ... I'll go reread the entire catechism and post answers to your questions as they are in Catholicism if you want ... but that won't change anything, in the end Catholicism won't be acceptable to Protestants unless it becomes the same thing and vice versa, so why do we even argue about it? It really isn't to know and learn b/c we never learn anything we go in with our minds already made up as to what the answer is and no one accepts the possiblity that they may be wrong, I am guilty of this, I feel that I am right and you are wrong, but when I come into this forum I know after everything is said and done neither of us is probably going to change our minds about anything. So in the time that I am here I try not to demean your faith based on my opinion of it. All I ask is not to have aspects of my faith related to human waste (or any similar comments) ... sorry if that is too much to ask.
Refering to papal infallibility (or any doctrine of the Church) as 'poo' I believe it was, I find out of line ... I'm sorry, but I do that is how it is, it's comments like that Thad, not questions like 'Where was papal infallibility derived from? or what is the true meaning of papal infallability?' I don't mind open exploration of a faith all I'm asking is that you enter that exploration with an open mind instead of going into it knowing your right and regardless of what anyone says to the contrary they are wrong, I admit I'm not a scripture scholar so thus asking me to argue with you where there are specific quotes in the bible that support specific things in my faith I can't do. To me the Bible is the Word of God passed through men and as such needs to be interpreted ... I'll go reread the entire catechism and post answers to your questions as they are in Catholicism if you want ... but that won't change anything, in the end Catholicism won't be acceptable to Protestants unless it becomes the same thing and vice versa, so why do we even argue about it? It really isn't to know and learn b/c we never learn anything we go in with our minds already made up as to what the answer is and no one accepts the possiblity that they may be wrong, I am guilty of this, I feel that I am right and you are wrong, but when I come into this forum I know after everything is said and done neither of us is probably going to change our minds about anything. So in the time that I am here I try not to demean your faith based on my opinion of it. All I ask is not to have aspects of my faith related to human waste (or any similar comments) ... sorry if that is too much to ask.
Thaddius
Member
No, respect is what we all want. I never said it was poo. (I'm going to assume most of that was generalizations from what you have seen on this board and not directed at me)
I'm not asking you to argue with me, heck I'm not a very good scholar myself. What I think you should do is research and understand what you believe. Don't just let someone tell you what to believe. Make up your mind for yourself. I'm trying to understand what I believe by reading, if you don't or haven't, then you should as well.
Cory
I'm not asking you to argue with me, heck I'm not a very good scholar myself. What I think you should do is research and understand what you believe. Don't just let someone tell you what to believe. Make up your mind for yourself. I'm trying to understand what I believe by reading, if you don't or haven't, then you should as well.
Cory
It was not a generalization and it wasn't directed at you.[b said:
My faith is built upon my education. I was educated in Parochial schools until I got to college, so my knowledge of the Church is based on what Nuns/Priests have presented to me. They did not present me with Bible verses to support everything b/c the faith wasn't built around the Bible, the Bible as we know it today wasn't even in existence at the time of the Church's founding. So thus I consider myself to have made up my mind after researching it, I have previously read the catechism (only once, it was quite long) so I am researched and read if you will, in Religion classes in High School we read from the Bible everyday and were asked to relate it to our lives in an attempt at understanding it better.
The faiths are different in our use of the Bible, there will always be a debate over whether or not it is meant to be literal or figurative. Using the Bible the way I was taught to when I was raised provides me with the reason for my beliefs.
Just a point.[b said:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/wcotc1.htm
WCOTC/TCM is not Christian in any way shape or form. They completely reject Jesus.
On the others...I dunno. Mormonism is akin to Scientology. I do believe that the NT was written by people who believed what they wrote. John Smith makes Paul look like a saint (no pun intended).
As for JWs...wow. They are odd.
I don't see any of them as being "Christian" in the sense of the word. The JWs don't follow the Bible at all. Anyway...according to them, Jesus already came back.
Mormons...well...they have some odd beliefs that are pretty out there.
Curious question...what is your definition of a "cult?"
G
Guest
Guest
Dear Lion,[b said:
No they are not the Same Religion. Protestantism, in its super emphasis on the Pauline Letters, rejects the Gospels, Works, and Righteousness. Protestantism asserts a Libertinism that has given disgrace to the Christain Religion and earned it the name of The Great Satan.
Catholicism honors the Saints and Our Lady. Protestantism hopes to go to Heaven while presently hating everybody who is already there. Such active and constant hatred of everything and everyone who is Holy is Anti-Religion. No, Catholics and Protestants are not the same Religion... unless you count Protestants going to the Catholic Hell as being somehow affiliated.
Malohaut
Moderator
While I agree with Leo in that Catholicism and Protestant religions (which covers all Christian denominations) are not quite the same, I don't think he fully explained the differences.
The way I've seen, in the Protestant religion, you are saved by faith and you are saved by the act of Christ. Jesus died for your sins on the cross, and by that sacrificial price, you have been granted a remission of all your sins and are an heir to the kingdom of heaven. You are still asked to obey the law, but you are no longer condemned by the law to inevitable eternal punishment.
As for the Catholic religion, the 'Cadillac of religions' as it was once put. Catholicism focuses more on the Saints and on the Queen of Heaven and less on the scriptures and on Christ. In Catholicism, you are not given a free pass to heaven through Christ's sacrifice, so you still must seek penance through the church. Each new sin is offensable and punishable by eternal damnation and you must seek to confess and repent and pray to the Saints to help you and to pray for you so that you will not enter into purgatory or burn in the eternal fires of hell. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about any of this Leo)
So in protestant religion, you are saved through Christ. But in catholic religion, you must work your way to salvation. That's the critical difference.
"Protestantism hopes to go to Heaven while presently hating everybody who is already there"
Just because protestants don't pray to the saints for guidance doesn't mean they hate them. It just means they don't feel comfortable communicating with them or trying to call on them.
The way I've seen, in the Protestant religion, you are saved by faith and you are saved by the act of Christ. Jesus died for your sins on the cross, and by that sacrificial price, you have been granted a remission of all your sins and are an heir to the kingdom of heaven. You are still asked to obey the law, but you are no longer condemned by the law to inevitable eternal punishment.
As for the Catholic religion, the 'Cadillac of religions' as it was once put. Catholicism focuses more on the Saints and on the Queen of Heaven and less on the scriptures and on Christ. In Catholicism, you are not given a free pass to heaven through Christ's sacrifice, so you still must seek penance through the church. Each new sin is offensable and punishable by eternal damnation and you must seek to confess and repent and pray to the Saints to help you and to pray for you so that you will not enter into purgatory or burn in the eternal fires of hell. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about any of this Leo)
So in protestant religion, you are saved through Christ. But in catholic religion, you must work your way to salvation. That's the critical difference.
"Protestantism hopes to go to Heaven while presently hating everybody who is already there"
Just because protestants don't pray to the saints for guidance doesn't mean they hate them. It just means they don't feel comfortable communicating with them or trying to call on them.
Malohaut
Moderator
There are many people out there who believe that all religions share a fundamental unity that renders them equally valid as approaches to God. However, this idea significantly underestimates the differences between the teachings of various religions. Let's take Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and Christianity for example. In classic Buddhism, the problem facing humanity is the suffering caused by desire. Since whatever man desires is not permanent, and ultimately leads to frustration and sorrow, the way to peace of mind and ultimate "salvation" is through the elimination of all desire-even the desire to live. In classic Hinduism, the problem facing humanity is our being trapped in this illusory, material world over the course of many lifetimes primarily due to our ignorance of our true identity as the fundamentally divine beings. The solution to that dilemma is our recognition of our true divine nature. In Islam, man's problem is his failure to live by the law of God which has been revealed through His prophets. The solution is to commit himself to obeying God's laws, in hope that his good deeds will outweigh the bad. In Christianity, the problem is similar – man’s rebellion against the will of God. But the solution is much different. It is through faith in the sacrifice of Jesus for our sins, provided by God's unmerited graces.
Now from these examples alone, it shows that even though there may be similarities among the world's religions, the differences are fundamental in nature. Although there is a commonality in regards to seeking a 'religious experience' or seeking the moral and ethical improvement of man, the path of each religion and the endpoint solution each religion requires is quite different. So it is not likely that all religions lead to the same kind of God or goal and is sometimes contradictary (like islam is saved through works, Christianity is saved through faith) and as such, they cannot all be correct.
Now from these examples alone, it shows that even though there may be similarities among the world's religions, the differences are fundamental in nature. Although there is a commonality in regards to seeking a 'religious experience' or seeking the moral and ethical improvement of man, the path of each religion and the endpoint solution each religion requires is quite different. So it is not likely that all religions lead to the same kind of God or goal and is sometimes contradictary (like islam is saved through works, Christianity is saved through faith) and as such, they cannot all be correct.
LionOfJudah
Member, Dreamcast Fishing Guru
Leo you are saying that You are saved by works and petnance. which is wrong because if that was the case then the Law should work still, but it doesnt. Also the sacrifice wasnt what made the Jews clean in the old testament, it was the faith that God would forgive them, that made them rightious to God.
Its the same today It is by Faith that we are saved, Faith that Jesus' sacrifice was good enough to save us. But faith is not the end all, because of our faith, if it is true faith, it will be shown out in our Works.
No they are not the Same religion but whether or not you like it we are brothers and sisters in Christ. With the way that you are always denouncing Protestantism it seems that you know very little about it because you are starting to sound like a broken record.
Its the same today It is by Faith that we are saved, Faith that Jesus' sacrifice was good enough to save us. But faith is not the end all, because of our faith, if it is true faith, it will be shown out in our Works.
No they are not the Same religion but whether or not you like it we are brothers and sisters in Christ. With the way that you are always denouncing Protestantism it seems that you know very little about it because you are starting to sound like a broken record.
Thaddius
Member
If you ask a Mormon or Jehovias Witness that comes a knockin' they say they are Christian. As for the WCOTC, thanks for clarifying that. I had seen Hale on TV a few months back and thought for some reason they claimed to be a Christian religion. Interesting that they seem closer to athiests than anything, though the refuse to use that term. (I'm not saying athiests are racists)[b said:Quote[/b] (Big J @ Nov. 04 2003,4:14)]Just a point.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/wcotc1.htm
WCOTC/TCM is not Christian in any way shape or form. They completely reject Jesus.
On the others...I dunno. Mormonism is akin to Scientology. I do believe that the NT was written by people who believed what they wrote. John Smith makes Paul look like a saint (no pun intended).
As for JWs...wow. They are odd.
I don't see any of them as being "Christian" in the sense of the word. The JWs don't follow the Bible at all. Anyway...according to them, Jesus already came back.
Mormons...well...they have some odd beliefs that are pretty out there.
Curious question...what is your definition of a "cult?"
What do I think a cult is? Well, any organized religion can be considered a cult. I believe anything outside of Christianity to be a cult.
Cory
Kidan
Moderator
[b said:
That's the definition of a cult. Accordingly, any religious sect is a cult.
Oh, I agree that Ms and JWs claim to be Christian. But I just don't see their beliefs meshing at all with what the Bible says are requirements for salvation. Just saying.[b said:
I'll put it like this. Muslims believe in Jesus, but they don't believe he was the savior, died, and was resurrected. He was just a prophet. Ergo, I would not consider them Christians.
WCOTC is atheistic, since they believe that there are no gods whatsoever. However, they reject that term. *shrug* Personally, I'm glad.
I appreciate your honest answer on what a cult is. I don't agree with it, but it was honest.
Eh, yea, I've been off the forums for several days, but I just glanced through the hot-topics, and I only have one thing to say as of now, since I think my head is about to explode with pain....
4top--
My hatred towards the Catholic church? I've shown no hatred towards them at all. If anything, i've tried to express my respect and such for them. And yes, I know quite a bit about the Catholic church, and for you to say it was disenheartening to see me going up against them bothered me.
I was simply stating what Leo had previously said.
Meh. Maybe this is my migraine talking, but people have been trying to pick fights with me all week ....<_>............
Van
4top--
My hatred towards the Catholic church? I've shown no hatred towards them at all. If anything, i've tried to express my respect and such for them. And yes, I know quite a bit about the Catholic church, and for you to say it was disenheartening to see me going up against them bothered me.
I was simply stating what Leo had previously said.
Meh. Maybe this is my migraine talking, but people have been trying to pick fights with me all week ....<_>............
Van
And also, poo is just my word I use for generally anything that is considered "Wrong." Wasn't trying to be disrespectful.
So please don't take my words out of context from which they were spoken, because my phrase "Papal infallibility = poo" was in direct response of what Leo had just said, which was the same thing.
Rawr, I can't say anything right this week -_-...
Tyler
I think i'm going to bed now. at 7:30. Stupid head.
So please don't take my words out of context from which they were spoken, because my phrase "Papal infallibility = poo" was in direct response of what Leo had just said, which was the same thing.
-- Leo[b said:
Rawr, I can't say anything right this week -_-...
Tyler
I think i'm going to bed now. at 7:30. Stupid head.