Giants (Nephilim, Rephaim)

[tomfoolery_79]

I do not believe it's a stretch. I do think it is a mystery. What exactly is Jude referring to when he says that angels left their proper domain and went after strange flesh? If you have answers, please supply them.

Show me again were exactly it says they went after strange flesh? My bible doesn't say that. Your commentary does, but not the bible.

 

[Daniel434]

Jews have a vested interest in misinterpreting the Bible.

Wow, that statement smacks of anti-semitism. You do realize it was God who entrusted the Jews to His Word and Jesus was a Jew as well as all the authors of the Bible except for maybe Luke.

Now if you would like to reword you statement as Rabbinic Jewish interpretations of Genesis, etc...I can understand. But to flat out say "Jews have a vested interest in misinterpreting the Bible" is silly at best but strikes me as somewhat anti-semitic.

As far as these nephilim and whether or not Jude was referring to that or not, I think we agree that you are right, it is conjecture and we do not know what Jude was referring to.

Let me end with 2 Timothy 3:16:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

 

[Daniel434]

Show me again were exactly it says they went after strange flesh? My bible doesn't say that. Your commentary does, but not the bible.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude+1:7&version=KJV

The KJV, NASB, ASV, all use "strange flesh". Since your a Calvinist your probably reading the ESV or RSV which reads "unnatural desire".

 

[Pheonix28]

Here's what a few Bible Dictionaries have to say about it.

נפיל

‎Nephilim.
‎Early division of the human race, mentioned only twice in the OT (Gn 6:4; Nm 13:33). The Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures rendered the name “Nephilim” as “giants,” and other versions followed this rendering, including the kjv. Modern translations, however, usually designate them as Nephilim, thus identifying them with the Anakim (Nm 13:33; Dt 2:21) and the Rephaim (Dt 2:20). The latter two were reputed to be large physically, hence the rendering “giants.”
‎The Nephilim are of unknown origin. Some writers have taken the Hebrew verb naphal, “to fall,” to imply that the Nephilim were “fallen ones,” that is, fallen angels who subsequently mated with human women. But Christ taught that angels do not have carnal relationships (Lk 20:34, 35), and therefore this view can only be maintained by assuming that Genesis 6:1–4 reflects Greek mythology, in which such unions occurred. The Genesis passage, however, deals with anthropology, not mythology.
‎The Nephilim were evidently not the “sons of God” and seem to be different also from the “daughters of men.” The best classification is with the Anakim and Rephaim as contemporary peoples of unknown origin.

Walter A. Elwell and Barry J. Beitzel, Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1988). 1541.

‎Nephilim (nefʹi-leem), people of the pre-Flood generation, the offspring of daughters of men and divine beings (Gen. 6:1-4). Their generation and their conduct seem to have provoked the Flood as punishment (Gen. 6:5-8:22). In Num. 13:33 the Israelite spies describe the inhabitants of Hebron as Nephilim, so large and powerful that ‘we seemed like grasshoppers.’ The name could mean ‘fallen ones’ and allude to stories in related cultures of rebellious giants defeated by the gods in olden times (cf. Isa. 14:12).

Paul J. Achtemeier and Society of Biblical Literature, Harper’s Bible Dictionary, 1st ed. (San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1985). 696.

‎Nephilim — (Gen. 6:4; Num. 13:33, R.V.), giants, the Hebrew word left untranslated by the Revisers, the name of one of the Canaanitish tribes. The Revisers have, however, translated the Hebrew gibborim, in Gen. 6:4, “mighty men.”

M. G. Easton, Easton’s Bible Dictionary (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1996).

‎Nephilim [nĕfˊə lĭm] (Heb. nep̱îlîm).* A predeluvial people, the children of the “sons of God” and the “daughters of men” (Gen. 6:1–4). The term, of uncertain etymology, is rendered “giants” by the KJV, but appears to be distinct from the standard Hebrew term redupā˒îm). Their depiction as “mighty men … of old, the men of renown” (v.4) suggests a legendary people of the distant past, portrayed as the gigantic offspring of an unnatural union between humans and divine beings in an attempt to bring moral indictment against the generations prior to the Flood. An alternate interpretation regards the Nephilim as the product of marriage between the righteous offspring of Seth and ungodly women in general, thus leading to a moral degeneration of the righteous line of Seth.
‎At Num. 13:33 the spies report that they have seen the Nephilim, here called “the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim.” The context (v. 32, “men of great stature”) clearly suggests a type of giant familiar to the Israelites (cf. the Anakim [Deut. 9:2; Josh. 15:14; Judg. 1:20], David and Goliath).

Allen C. Myers, The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1987). 757.

‎NEPHILIM.—A Heb. word, of uncertain etymology, retained by B.V in the only two places where it occurs in OT (AV ‘giants’). In Gn 6:4 we read: ‘The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also afterwards, when the sons of God went in to the daughters of men and they hare to them; these are the heroes which were of old, the men of renown.’ The verse has the appearance of an explanatory gloss to the obscure mythological fragment which precedes, and is very difficult to understand. But we can hardly be wrong in supposing that it bears witness to a current belief (to which there are many heathen parallels) in a race of heroes or demigods, produced by the union of divine beings (‘sons of God’) with mortal women. The other notice is Nu 13:33, where the name is applied to men of gigaotic stature seen by the spies among the natives of Canaan. That these giants were popularly identified with the demigods of Gn 6:4, there is no reason to doubt.

James Hastings, John A. Selbie, John C. Lambert and Shailer Mathews, Dictionary of the Bible (New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1909). 652.

 

[tomfoolery_79]

Sigh. Anti-Semitism? You don't have to go there to win your argument. I love Jews. I thank God that they are our spiritual brothers, God's chosen and fellow heirs. The Children of Promise are an amazing story throughout the bible.

Now, you are missing my point. I'm not talking about Sodom and Gomorrah, I'm talking about the bible stating that angels went after "strange flesh". Again, my bible doesn't say that. It says Sodom and Gomorrah did.

 

[tomfoolery_79]

To me it's obvious that analogy/metaphor is that a sin occurred, not the type of sin.

 

[ewoksrule]

This article talks about the 4 major views on this topic with decent support:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/who-were-the-nephilim

Name View in short

• Fallen angels view-- Satan and/or his fallen angels bred with human women and had offspring that were called Nephilim.
• Fallen angels overtook men view-- Fallen angels and/or Satan possessed men and caused them to breed with women.
• Sethite view-- The sons of God were the godly line from Adam to Seth down to Noah, and the Nephilim were fallen children who sought after false gods.
• Fallen men view-- Godly men (sons of God) took ungodly wives, and their descendants (Nephilim) followed after the false gods, rejected God, and fell far from God in wickedness.

 

[Daniel434]

Sigh. Anti-Semitism? You don't have to go there to win your argument. I love Jews.

I'm not trying to win an argument. I'm glad you love Jews, but you painted an extremely broad brush by basically saying "Jews love to misinterpret the Bible" (My paraphase) At least that's how I read it. I run across many Christians who do not even know that Jews can be Christians nor understand the early church was mostly comprised of Jews. I believe there are anti-Semitic tendencies in the church and I believe replacement/covenant theology is one of them.

 

[Daniel434]

This article talks about the 4 major views on this topic with decent support:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/who-were-the-nephilim

Name View in short

• Fallen angels view-- Satan and/or his fallen angels bred with human women and had offspring that were called Nephilim.
• Fallen angels overtook men view-- Fallen angels and/or Satan possessed men and caused them to breed with women.
• Sethite view-- The sons of God were the godly line from Adam to Seth down to Noah, and the Nephilim were fallen children who sought after false gods.
• Fallen men view-- Godly men (sons of God) took ungodly wives, and their descendants (Nephilim) followed after the false gods, rejected God, and fell far from God in wickedness.

Thank You for the link. Going to read it now.

 

[tomfoolery_79]

99.99% of the time someone talks about Jews, it's not Jews for Jesus or Jews who accept Christ. And what I said is an inappropriate generalization, I apologize, but it's not 100% wrong either. "vested" and "love" do not mean the same things nor are they remotely similar.

 

[Daniel434]

99.99% of the time someone talks about Jews, it's not Jews for Jesus or Jews who accept Christ. And what I said is an inappropriate generalization, I apologize, but it's not 100% wrong either. "vested" and "love" do not mean the same things nor are they remotely similar.

Well, I apologize for being too sensitive. Also, apology accepted. You know some atheist is probably reading these forums and laughing at us debating each other.

EDIT: BTW, that link ewok posted is an excellent read.

 

[tomfoolery_79]

Thank you Ewok for posting it. The summation of the first part of "fallen angels bore children with women" theory is mostly what Grudem points out.

 

[tagtarsis]

Not to derail I have 2 things to say. 1 is the idea of the Jews. Yes they are God's chosen but they have not followed him since he gave them the messiah. Furthermore I realize what Tomfoolery was saying is that many within the Jewish world are out to prove Christ was not the Son of God. Not all and I understand that there are messianic Jews.

Take as note in fact:
The Jewish Talmud: The ancient exposition of Jewish law. In an excert dated around 100-200 AD. We read a fascinating report of the case Against Jesus that led to his trial and execution.
"On the eve of Passover Jesus was hanged (on a cross). For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed and led Israel astray. Anyone who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favor, he was hanged on the eve of Passover."

We all know this 40 day time frame did not happen and as I point this out as simply they were attempting to destroy the Christian deserters and make Christ out to be a bad guy. It was in the minds of these Jews to do just this in addition to having him hung on the cross. They never expected that this sect of Jews would become a bigger faction. (just a summary of the situation.)

The second thing I would like to say is simply some facts. I agree that it was not humans and aliens or angels, they can not procreate with human kind so this is a false in a few ways.

Human remains have been found that are huge and not every one is pre-flood. In fact some are well documented post flood people. As Tomfoolery pointed out we even have some living today.

Sultan Kosen from Turkey, at 8 feet 3 inch tall still alive today
Robert Wadlow from the US at 8 feet 11 inch tall died in 1940
John Rogan from the US at 8 feet 9 inch tall died in 1905
Zeng Jinlain from China at 8 feet 1 inch female who died in 1982
Maximinus Thrax Emperor of Rome at 8 feet 6 inch died in 238
John Middleton had documented on his tombstone " Here lyeth the bodie of John Middleton, the Childe of Hale, nine feet three"

On top of all the people we can discuss in this range several skeletons have been found that are bigger:

15-foot human skeleton found in southeast Turkey in late 1950's in the Euphrates valley during road construction. Many tombs containing giants were uncovered here.

Goliath was about 9 feet + or - a few inches. I Samuel 17:4 late 11th century.

King Og spoken of in Deuteronomy 3:11 whose iron bedstead was approximately 14-feet by 6-feet wide. King Og was at least 12-feet tall, yet some claim up to 18.

A 19'6" human skeleton found in 1577 A.D. under an overturned oak tree in the Canton of Lucerne.

23-foot tall skeleton found in 1456 A.D. beside a river in Valence, France.

25' 6 " skeleton found in 1613 A.D. near the castle of Chaumont in France. This was claimed to be a nearly complete find.

Some of these finds are documented well yet many are hidden by the pro-evolution push to prove man is getting bigger rather then getting smaller.

Here is an old black and white picture of a Mummy that is as tall as a box car. This picture has been studied and proved to not be photo shopped.

 

[tagtarsis]

Here is an image of the femur of this giant this femur is a molded copy of the femur.

Read the caption of this for more info.

Please note the ? next to angels as noted in the biblical part of this caption.

 

[tomfoolery_79]

I know someone who works at the Creation Museum who says that old guy is the real deal. They have gotten artifacts from him.

 

[tagtarsis]

Yea I too know someone who has meet this guy and can concur with some of his findings. My father in law has talked with this guy before.

 

[Mr. Mask]

The second thing I would like to say is simply some facts. I agree that it was not humans and aliens or angels, they can not procreate with human kind so this is a false in a few ways.

Human remains have been found that are huge and not every one is pre-flood. In fact some are well documented post flood people. As Tomfoolery pointed out we even have some living today.

It's not so much that aliens can't procreate with humans, as there aren't likely to be aliens. As for angels--they are Sons of God. Who knows what they are capable of, when they decide to do evil.

Sultan Kosen from Turkey, at 8 feet 3 inch tall still alive today
Robert Wadlow from the US at 8 feet 11 inch tall died in 1940
John Rogan from the US at 8 feet 9 inch tall died in 1905
Zeng Jinlain from China at 8 feet 1 inch female who died in 1982
Maximinus Thrax Emperor of Rome at 8 feet 6 inch died in 238
John Middleton had documented on his tombstone " Here lyeth the bodie of John Middleton, the Childe of Hale, nine feet three"

On top of all the people we can discuss in this range several skeletons have been found that are bigger:

15-foot human skeleton found in southeast Turkey in late 1950's in the Euphrates valley during road construction. Many tombs containing giants were uncovered here.

Goliath was about 9 feet + or - a few inches. I Samuel 17:4 late 11th century.

King Og spoken of in Deuteronomy 3:11 whose iron bedstead was approximately 14-feet by 6-feet wide. King Og was at least 12-feet tall, yet some claim up to 18.

A 19'6" human skeleton found in 1577 A.D. under an overturned oak tree in the Canton of Lucerne.

23-foot tall skeleton found in 1456 A.D. beside a river in Valence, France.

25' 6 " skeleton found in 1613 A.D. near the castle of Chaumont in France. This was claimed to be a nearly complete find.

Some of these finds are documented well yet many are hidden by the pro-evolution push to prove man is getting bigger rather then getting smaller.

Here is an old black and white picture of a Mummy that is as tall as a box car. This picture has been studied and proved to not be photo shopped.

25.5-foot tall ? Do Nephilim really get that tall...? That is terrifying to imagine.

 

[Pheonix28]

15-foot human skeleton found in southeast Turkey in late 1950's in the Euphrates valley during road construction. Many tombs containing giants were uncovered here.

A 19'6" human skeleton found in 1577 A.D. under an overturned oak tree in the Canton of Lucerne.

23-foot tall skeleton found in 1456 A.D. beside a river in Valence, France.

25' 6 " skeleton found in 1613 A.D. near the castle of Chaumont in France. This was claimed to be a nearly complete find.

Some of these finds are documented well yet many are hidden by the pro-evolution push to prove man is getting bigger rather then getting smaller.

Here is an old black and white picture of a Mummy that is as tall as a box car. This picture has been studied and proved to not be photo shopped.

Do you have anything to back that up? I've not been able to find anything to back those up. I have found many things saying that at least the Turkey skeletons are a hoax. It could be that they're being hidden as you claim, or they really are a hoax. I'd like to know if there's anything backing it up.

Also, the picture you posted, where did you find that?

 

[tagtarsis]

Do you have anything to back that up? I've not been able to find anything to back those up. I have found many things saying that at least the Turkey skeletons are a hoax. It could be that they're being hidden as you claim, or they really are a hoax. I'd like to know if there's anything backing it up.

Thanks for your inquiry. Yes I do have some things to back this up and I do agree that I at once thought this was a hoax so I can see where you are coming from.

My father in law who is a geologist has personally had contact with the person in the picture shown above his name is Joe Taylor. He has authored a book on this subject that is very good.

Source for the above information:
Joe Taylor, Mt. Blanco Fossil Museum
124 West Main St., P.O. Box 550, Crosbyton, TX 79322
(805) 675-7777 (office) and (806) 675-2421 (fax)

Feel free to buy his book its a good read, also feel free to question me I have not come to these understandings by blind faith I am very concerned with understanding this stuff and I have volumes of materials devoted to these subjects here at home.

I also firmly believe this is a cover up. My father in law has tole me stories of turning in stuff to museums for research only to be told it was "lost" he believes that the whole story is not being told. (He has told me an actual story of having something "lost" by a museum that he felt was very ground breaking and they just "lost" it when he returned to retrieve the item. I only wish I remember what it was he said he found, Ill have to check with my wife on that one.)

This gets into a deeper argument of evolution vs creation and the government sponsored religion of evolution but I do not want to derail the thread.

I did however find a nice reference website at one time that contains newspaper clippings of finds from all over.

http://gianthumanskeletons.blogspot.com/p/giant-human-remains-found-along.html

Overall believe what you want I am very scientific minded and I research stuff on these subjects most of the stuff with real substance is not on the net but in print. I would highly encourage you to find some of those materials, they do contain actual bibliography for father reference.

 

[Kahiel]

You picked a good one there.

I too have learned the theory that angles came down to earth and bred with human women to create a giant hybrid. I did a little work on the word Nephilim. While it's commonly translated as "giant" the root actually come from "to fall" making "fallen ones" potentially a better rendering.

Jude indeed does refer to " the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling" Jude 1:6. Hard to say if that refers to Nephilim or the offspring of angels and humans.