Free will?

[LionOfJudah]

no you do not understand my point, because children at the age of 4-5 are VERY inquizitive and will touch just about everything , i know from persoanly experience and seeing it my self, Now then you KNOW they are going to touch it What do you do?

 

[timor]

Quote[/b] (LionOfJudah @ Sep. 13 2003,10:00)]no you do not understand my point, because children at the age of 4-5 are VERY inquizitive and will touch just about everything , i know from persoanly experience and seeing it my self, Now then you KNOW they are going to touch it What do you do?

The point in question is not God's reaction to our actions, which he he knows for sure through his omniscience - that is irrelevant. We are questioning the ability for that child to actually, at the last second, pull his hand away. Are you truly implying that this child has absolutely no potential for pulling his hand away?

 

[LionOfJudah]

well do we not have a chance at the last second before going over the edge not to pull our self back, from that affair or from that extra drink, to smoking or whatever the "edge" is.

 

[timor]

No, not if God has seen, via omniscience, that we are going to take that step, whatever it is. And the thing you're missing, I think, is that God's omniscience doesn't apply only to some actions, or only to "major life decisions" such as, as you just mentioned, drugs/smoking/drinking, or one's personal salvation. It pertains to absolutely everything. Even my typing these words right now. Omniscience covers *everything*. Therefore, no, we have no change to do anything to the contrary of God's knowledge.

 

[Jamon]

Hello again!  I occasionally pop in and then back out.  Sorry for my long absence.  Oh and timor, I pray that you will allow the Holy Spirit to open your eyes once again to the truth.  We pray for you that you will stop allowing the enemy to fill your pride and make you 'know better' than God.  You are in our prayers.

And back to the actual debate here.  Ahh yes, the old Determinism vs. Free Will debate.  It's funny, this summer in college (I go to a secular university) I had a philosophy class that covered this very topic, from a non-God perspective.  I wanted to chime in here, as it might help us all think.  Forgive me if I plagiarize a bit; I suppose if I mention that I am borrowing ideas from Clifford Williams' Free Will and Determinism: A Dialogue it will keep the plagiarism police away.  

 There is a position in philosophy which is what I feel is the correct (or closest) perspective to the Christian perspective - and that is Compatibilism - where free will and a determined outcome (God's sovereignty) are not incompatible viewpoints.  Though your initial reaction might be 'huh?' relax, I will explain.

The compatiblist viewpoint is that everything is determined.  Yes, God knows all and the end is and will be no surprise to Him.  I can hear it now: "But how can we have free will if that's the case??  Ack!!"  Let me explain.  Even though the end may be known, and God is not surprised, we still make each choice that we do, and we are therefore responsible for it.  Consider a situation where you can choose a blue or a red shirt to buy.  God certainly knows what you will buy, but you don't yet.  But you do choose which one you buy!  This is not really a contradiction!  Also consider that the evidence for a deterministic universe is very large - each action of many things is the result of previous ones, and the universe responds in predicable ways to various conditions in predictable ways (how God made it, certainly).  If I must be more specific and get into more detail I can.. but it's a tiresome debate, really.  But would you not agree that we are free if we are not prevented from doing something, and the fact that God knows what will happen does not restrict that freedom?  Therefore we still choose our actions, and God is not surprised.  Cool, eh? That is the crux of the argument; it can make sense if you think about it.  Try.
I know that God's prophecy accuracy rate is 100% so far (several hundred fulfilled in Christ alone) and the prophecies of the coming days (Revelation, Daniel, others) are going to happen as well as the previous ones did.  

Quote[/b] ]Rev. 20 4-6a, 11-15:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ . . .
[after a thousand year reign with Christ]
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (hell: or, the grave)
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The book of life is reserved for those who have given their life to Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.  Anyhow, I hope this post makes you think.

God Bless,

Jamon

 

[timor]

Very good post, Jamon, and I thank you for approaching this the way you did. About the prayers, I respectfully say thank you.

However, I still see the view as flawed. You mention that we still make the choice between the red and blue shirt, and God simply knows which one we are going to choose. But that raises an interesting question - with our final decision already known (not just guessed at, but known, by an omniscient and omnipotent god, who cannot possibly be wrong), are we actually still making a choice? We have the illusion of making a choice, but really, we never had any chance to choose differently from that way which god foreknew. Without the potential for multiple choices, we truly have no free will. I mean, if you're walking along a road to a whatever destination, and there's only one road with no cutoffs, and no other possible routes (or lets say there are, but they're closed for repair), but you still have to get to your destination (after all, we have no choice but to move foreward through time in our lives), are you really excercising free will by taking that single road to the destination?

 

[Wend]

Quote[/b] (timor @ Sep. 13 2003,8:19)][ We are questioning the ability for that child to actually, at the last second, pull his hand away. Are you truly implying that this child has absolutely no potential for pulling his hand away?

Sure, the child has the potential right up until the time that s/he makes the choice...we as humans can not be SURE of the outcome until a choice is made...however, God knows the outcome...WE don't, therefore we still have free will to decide as we will.

Well put Jamon...the point is that if we were omniscient there would be no free will, but God can be omniscient and humans still have free will because we humans aren't the ones with the "foreknowledge" of our "destiny".

 

[timor]

Quote[/b] ([TRiBForCe]North @ Sep. 13 2003,11:24)]

Quote[/b] (timor @ Sep. 13 2003,8:19)][ We are questioning the ability for that child to actually, at the last second, pull his hand away. Are you truly implying that this child has absolutely no potential for pulling his hand away?

Sure, the child has the potential right up until the time that s/he makes the choice...we as humans can not be SURE of the outcome until a choice is made...however, God knows the outcome...WE don't, therefore we still have free will to decide as we will.

Well put Jamon...the point is that if we were omniscient there would be no free will, but God can be omniscient and humans still have free will because we humans aren't the ones with the "foreknowledge" of our "destiny".

You're right, the child has the potential, because you, the onlooker with the experience to deduce that the child will *most likely* touch the stove, is NOT omniscient!

You see, you're missing the gravity of God's omniscience. I'll say it again: If God, who is omniscient, knows the decision we are going to make, we, regardless of our knowledge or illusion of free will, have no possible chance of acting in any way but that which God has foreknown - to do otherwise would negate his omniscience.

 

[Wend]

I guess that I would disagree then with the way that you are defining free will - Because I have no idea what God knows that I am going to do, I in my limited humanity, have complete free will to decide to do whatever I want to do - that is me excersizing my free will.  My choice to do whatever I will has nothing whatsoever to do with God's omniscience...just because He knows what I will choose has no bearing on my ability to completely excersize free will.

I will try to make an analogy. (it may be sloppy, but I'm gonna try) I lock my front door...I know that whoever tries to open the door will be unable to open it...does that take away my kids/husband/friends, or whoever else's ability to make a choice to try to open the door.  My knowledge that the door will not open in no way influences those people's free will to decide whether they will try to open my door. <-- would you define that as them having an "illusion" of free will?  If so then I guess we will have to agree to disagree because we would each find eachother's starting point flawed.

 

[CCGR]

We are created by God and for God. We are not worship robots, we could have been made that way but we are not. Therefore when we do choose to worship God it's more meaningful, don't you think?

 

[timor]

Quote[/b] (CCGR @ Sep. 13 2003,11:55)]We are created by God and for God. We are not worship robots, we could have been made that way but we are not. Therefore when we do choose to worship God it's more meaningful, don't you think?

Yes - which is why its a shame you don't.

 

[Medjai]

You are demonstrating the illusion of free will. We 'make' choices, but our choices are destiny, in that there is only one potential choice we will make, it is definate, if it wasn't God would have no way of knowing our choice.

 

[Wend]

Quote[/b] (Medjai @ Sep. 13 2003,10:07)]You are demonstrating the illusion of free will. We 'make' choices, but our choices are destiny, in that there is only one potential choice we will make, it is definate, if it wasn't God would have no way of knowing our choice.

Again I ask...how are you defining free will? - whose point of view are you taking this from?

From my (a human) point of view I have complete free will because I live a linear (with regards to time) existence.  For me each choice I am faced with (from the what time I get up...which side of the bed...to the big ones...what do I choose to believe in, etc.) is completely made of my own free will and because I have no clue what my ultimate destiny is supposed to be, I have many potential choices...God's knowing what I am going to do does not affect MY potential to make one of many (from my human point of view) choices.

From God's omniscient point of view...he knows where I'm going to end up and each choice I am going to make along the way.

So, If I were omniscient, I would agree that I would only have the "illusion" of free will, because I would know in advance the choice I was going to make.  However, I am certainly not God, so I have the free will (potential if you'd rather) to choose because I do not know in advance the choice I am going to make.

At the beginning of this thread you set out a challenge to find a Bible verse about this...I came up with this one

Isaiah 55:8-9

8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD .
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[Vanaze]

Just something I noticed while browsing through this rather lively discussion.

Timor, you stated you're an atheist-agnostic. Someone (Lion, I think?) then said make up your mind. Lion did have a good point . Atheist and agnostic...You cannot be both. Why?

a·the·ist

One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

ag·nos·tic
n.


1. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
2. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.


I think that's pretty self explainatory. So yes, I say, decide where you stand.

I'd also like to say I'm enjoying watching this from afar very much so. I've heard so many misquotes from both sides of this arguement, it's amusing.

I do believe this much though...

God, as I know Him, and as anyone who believes in an Omniscient God...

He cannot be comprehended by humans. His ways cannot be interpreted. Things that happen, they happen for a reason. Destiny. Yet free will still exists. It's these paradoxes that throw you for a loop, thus making you so sure that you can't believe in God.

Here's the kicker, friends...
You never will understand it. Ever. Not until the day you die, and even then, you may not understand it. God is beyond us. Far beyond us. The concept of God within itself is bewildering. If freewill yet destiny coexist, who are you to say it's impossible? If God created the both of them, He can make them work any cotton-pickin' way he wants them to. He's God. All powerful. Yes, even to the point of being able to make a paradox work. Fluidly, as well.

Try as you might to prove or disprove something, you will fail miserably, simply because you're thinking logically, in human terms. You can't do that with supernatural matters. You just cannot. God is God, man is man. God can do anything He wants. Man can do anything he's capable of doing, yet he's destined to do it. Knowing, though, that God can do anything He wants makes the latter statement entirely fine. If God, way back when in the beginning said, "Hey, I'm gonna give these critters free will, but I'm also going to make sure this, this, and this happens." He's God, what are you honestly going to say to Him when He wants His way...? No?

Odd thing is, people do it everyday. A paradox. God's will is fulfilled yet you don't follow God's will, but how do you know you didn't just fulfill God's will by not fulfilling His will? Confusing and yet so true. You can't explain it.

Now, again I'll slide back to the shadows from whence I crawled, to view this a while longer . Who knows when I may resurface?


Just a bit to chew on.
Van

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Ok well this debate has grown alot in a day. Medjai first of all you said because we deserve to go too hell god ceated us to do that no thats not true once again you are flawed in christian theology. God created man to fellowship with him even though we have fallen God sent Yeshua (Jesus) the second member of the trinity down to earth to die on the cross so that fellowship could be restored and i never said we where saved by works we are saved by faith and yes all people have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god. Now back to free will. Just because god knows the outcome does not negate freewill he knows the choice you will make but let me say it again he knows the CHOICE you will make I do not see how this neagtes omniscience or freewill its so simple really. One more thing as far as two wills you dont really seem to comprehend that part there are things god will not allow to differentiate from his plan as i said the rapture will occur no matter what and then he gives us freewill so it is up to you whether to choose salvation or not it is his will that you choose but he will allow you not to.

 

[LionOfJudah]

i think its funny how we sit here and debate about freewill, when we cant not even begin to fathom God,

with that said, i heard a very interesting theory on freewill,

that is man doesnt have it at all, every sinse eve gave the apple to adam, we have been predertermined to DIE!. With Jesus' death though it negates our lack there of for freewill, so now we have the CHOICE to follow God or to ignore him and live our life how ever we want, because it does hurt God to have to lose one of his children, BUT he can not even come near anything that is not pure and perfect, and that means all of US, unless you are covered by the blood of the lamb, but that doesnt make you perfect, the blood is perfect, but unfortanly there will be some TOO prideful to accept the good news and repent and believe, so they will be tossed to the fire.

 

[CCGR]

Quote[/b] (timor @ Sep. 13 2003,10:59)]

Quote[/b] ]Yes - which is why its a shame you don't.

We don't need personal attacks here that was rude and uncalled for.  We are suppose to be respectful here.

I mean come on you're not even sure if your atheist or agnostic...I stand my ground.  I have my faith and you have yours.  Let's assume we can both think rationally here?  If not please leave.

So do you believe in an afterlife?

 

[timor]

I'll start from the bottom and work my way up.

That was in no way a personal attack, Cheryll. I'm simply saying, you don't - we've shown this to be true, yet no one will show us the flaw in our argument.

Furthermore, I'm not an "atheist-agnostic"...that doesn't make sense... I'm an agnostic atheist...there are agnostic theists, and agnostic atheists. An agnostic-theist sees no evidence for God, yet believes in one anyway. I see that as being hypocritical, therefore I default to atheism due to my agnosticism. They're totally compatible. The point is, I don't deny the existence of God. I don't say "There is no God. God doesn not exist. You're living a lie." Instead, I say "I don't KNOW if there's a God, but I have no reason to believe in one, so I don't."

MrPopDrinker, please don't get offended by this, but your arguments are not very fluid, nor do they offer anything new - you've just been saying the same thing over and over. You may as well copy and paste. Periods are cool, too.

Vanaze and Lion, you talk so much about how God cannot be fathomed. Why, then, do you believe in him? I don't believe you when you say this, because the very fact that Christians argue in defense of their beliefs shows that they believe that God can somehow be captured by the human mind, atleast enough to believe in him.

I don't know why you all must insist on continually saying that just because God is omniscient, it doesn't negate our free will. No matter which way you slice it, it does. Just because you don't know what choice you're going to make does not fix everything. The fact remains that you cannot do anything to the contrary of God's knowledge, as to do so would negate his omniscience. Therefore, no matter what you do, you only have one choice for ever decision you make.

Please, just THINK about what we're saying here. It makes sense. If it doesn't, show us why not, as we've shown you the faults in your arguments. But please, use your heads! Honestly, I think saying that we can't understand it because it's of God is a cop-out.

Again, nothing I've posted in this post or any posts prior was meant to be hostile. If it comes off that way, its only because of frustration. You guys know I like you all, as you are all my freinds. You speak of wishing my heart would turn back to God. I wish that your minds would turn back to reality. After all, free-will or not, if you're not allowed to use your minds and reason things out logically, you may as well be a robot.

Edit --> I don't have any reason to believe in an afterlife.

 

[Medjai]

Actually, I guess we shouldn't call the things we do 'choices'. If an omniscient God exists, such things are merely 'actions' to which we only find an illusion of choice. In saying that because you are making the choices from your point of view shows that free will exists you are only strengthening our point that if an omniscient being exists, only an illusion of free will can be present.

If one can not fathom God than one can not be expected to have fellowship with him. God already had angels, I see not a verse in the Bible saying we are here for fellowship with God. I just love it when Christians add extra things beyond their 'good book' for convenience.

If God can not come near things that are impure, he is not omnipresent. Further he is unable to do something and this means he is not omnipotent. Simple logic.

I love the idea of being unable to 'fathom' God. This means that it is unjust of him to let me burn in hell for not believing in him as a result of failure to understand his defiance of logic.

Again, as timor has stressed, show us some flaw in our logic, stop using silly cop-outs. Perhaps you could just say that you are fine with the illusion of free will? Be honest with yourselves now...

 

[Vanaze]

Well, I say this to both of you, Timor and Medjai.

I believe in God because I've seen His works in my life.

I believe in His omnipresences because I have felt it.

I believe in His power because I have experienced it.


Sorry if that's not enough for you, but I'm a fairly simple guy, and that fulfills my life.

I just find it amusing how you're supposedly atheist, not caring if their is a god or not. Yet you come here and stir things up as if you care.

What's that going to do? If you don't believe in following any specific belief system, why come here and attack ours?

And yes, God is unfathomable, yet at the same time, so easy to reach. Not by the human /mind/, but the human heart.

Another paradox. Deal with it. ::Shrug::


Van