Favorite Songs and Hymns

[Patriot]

God knows.

Sure He does. But that was more of a deflection than an answer.

 

[Neirai the Forgiven]

It was

But since I won't be able to hedge in peace, I'll have to go with:

(Singing praises to the devil) -- No. No he can't. But I don't think Christians in church ever knowingly do this. I also believe strongly that the devil can't manipulate things that are intended for God (the other way around? Sure. But that's because God is more powerful than the devil.)

I also feel that the crux of the debate here is whether the form (words, beats, music) of worship matters more than the intent or spirit of worship. I think the form matters, but not as much as the heart of the worshiper towards God.

(complete off-topic: Why only one P in worshiper? That seems like a mistake.)


(Singing a song that is crude and offensive) -- here I'm a little confused. Is the song "crude and offensive" meaning "contains a lot of off-color content" or meaning "made so poorly that it offends me"?

I'll look at both:

Songs containing profane or vulgar content are a bit of an issue. In principle, I will say that God deserves all praise, even (or especially) fallen, human praise. God is praised in heaven, with perfect praise, and on earth with fallen, imperfect praise. And it's hard for me to draw the line where it stops being praise. For example, God deserves to be and is praised when the Elders throw down their crowns, when his people get together and sing "Great Is Your Faithfulness," and even when an angry rapper (let's pick Eminem) rages against the symptoms of sin (even without knowing what they are.)

Yet, of course, God is not praised by blasphemy. Nor by misrepresentation (e.g., when we God out to be not loving, or less important than ourselves.) There IS a line here. I'm not sure where it is, but God does.

I've praised God with Van Halen. Rarely, but I have.


Songs that are crudely created and performed can also worship God. Many children's songs fall in this category. When a song is crudely written, however, it can distract us. That is a problem, although we can (and sometimes must) overcome this with discipline.


(Theological issues) -- I'll get back to this later when I'm not running out the door to hit an appointment.

 

[Patriot]

It was

But since I won't be able to hedge in peace, I'll have to go with:

I would have let you get away with it. I just wanted to make sure you knew that I knew you were deflecting. It bothers me that politicians are rarely called out for deflecting. The person asking the question should at least note that the question was not answered even if it remains that way. Pet peeve, I suppose.

There IS a line here. I'm not sure where it is, but God does.

Perhaps this is the center of the discussion. I draw the line differently than others. But perhaps I draw that line because:

Songs that are crudely created and performed can also worship God. Many children's songs fall in this category. When a song is crudely written, however, it can distract us. That is a problem, although we can (and sometimes must) overcome this with discipline.

I have an extremely hard time focusing on worship if I don't agree with the words of a song. I enjoy a good beat (really like hymns put to more modern rhythms), but I can't get around the words.

Speaking of children's praise songs, there is one on a CD my wife has that I won't listen to. The lyrics are just flat out deceptive. . .

 

[ursen]

My, my where have we gone to? Here let's stir the pot a little. Have you ever heard Amazing Grace sung to the tune of The House of The Rising Sun? It used to have some popularity a number of years ago. I have yet to weigh in with my favorites.

 

[Patriot]

Have you ever heard Amazing Grace sung to the tune of The House of The Rising Sun? It used to have some popularity a number of years ago. I have yet to weigh in with my favorites.

Blind Boys of Alabama. Love that version.

 

[ursen]

Then you would probably enjoy the work of the Christian parody band Apologetixs. But we are way off track. Back to the thread, Hymns older than 50 years. I will weigh in soon.

 

[Pheonix28]

I believe that the heart is vital, but the method and medium is important as well. Let's consider an extreme example. . .can one properly worship God while singing the praises of satan? How about while singing a song that is merely crude and offensive? How about a song that one knows is theologically flawed?

I don't think the medium is as important as people like to make it out to be. Your examples of "singing the praises of satan" and "theologically flawed" are two completely opposite ends of the spectrum. One is clearly blasphemy while the other is off. What does "theology" have to do with worshiping God? Well, depending on to what extremes, or what views, people could claim just about anything to be theologically flawed.

Does God look away from our worship if we do something in ignorance? If my heart is fully worshiping God, but the word I say in my ignorance "aren't theologically sound" does that nullify my intentions?

 

[Patriot]

Drat. I was just going to let this go with a simple phrase, but I gave into temptation. Gonna have to work on my self-control.

I don't think the medium is as important as people like to make it out to be. Your examples of "singing the praises of satan" and "theologically flawed" are two completely opposite ends of the spectrum. One is clearly blasphemy while the other is off.

Then I would argue that the spectrum you are using is bad. Where does "theologically accurate" fit in if those two items are on each end?

What does "theology" have to do with worshiping God?

Everything. How do you know who you are worshiping? Why are you worshiping? How to worship?

Well, depending on to what extremes, or what views, people could claim just about anything to be theologically flawed.

This seems a bit relativistic to me. The proper view is backed up with Scripture.

Does God look away from our worship if we do something in ignorance? If my heart is fully worshiping God, but the word I say in my ignorance "aren't theologically sound" does that nullify my intentions?

There is certainly a place for ignorance. But we must be careful of willful ignorance.

We need to worship with our hearts, but we also need to worship with our bodies and our minds. We need to be mindful of the words coming from our mouths, and not trust in our ignorance to carry us along. Worship can be an emotional experience, but we shouldn't let emotion supersede all else.

 

[Kahiel]

I don't think the medium is as important as people like to make it out to be. Your examples of "singing the praises of satan" and "theologically flawed" are two completely opposite ends of the spectrum. One is clearly blasphemy while the other is off. What does "theology" have to do with worshiping God? Well, depending on to what extremes, or what views, people could claim just about anything to be theologically flawed.

Does God look away from our worship if we do something in ignorance? If my heart is fully worshiping God, but the word I say in my ignorance "aren't theologically sound" does that nullify my intentions?

I was trying to stay out of this discussion (mainly because I don't like hymns but that is a whole other issue) but like Patriot I can't let that one go by...

Scripture tells us that we should "worship in truth and spirit." So the theology of worship is very important. This is part of the problem with some of the contemporary praise and worship music. We used to have a "young adult" band that played for our evening service. TFK has some great music, but Rawk Fist isn't a worship song. There is a lot of great Christian music, but just because it's performed by a Christian group doesn't mean it's praise and worship music. If music is theologically inaccurate then it could be considered idolatry, worshiping a God of our creation rather than the True Living God and it teaches our congregation incorrect information about God. (In theology class we played a game called Hymnal Heresy, identifying theological problems in hymns.) Praise and worship music must paint a theologically accurate picture of God as it makes us aware of His presence and leads us in praise of Jesus. It doesn't have to address deep theological issues like predestination but it must be accurate.

 

[Pheonix28]

I don't have time to write up a proper response right now, so I will try and get back to edit this later. I wanted to get back and re-word my reply but didn't have the time to yesterday either.

I do not believe we should live in ignorance. However, as much as we should strive to be knowledgeable, not everyone is, and as such, many people want to worship God and do so the best way they know how.

I am not saying that we should sing "theologically flawed" songs, but what defines a "theologically flawed" song? More to the point, there are a large majority of worship songs that have very little "theology" in them, or what most people would think of theology.

I want to write a proper response but don't have time, sorry.

 

[Kahiel]

I am not saying that we should sing "theologically flawed" songs, but what defines a "theologically flawed" song? More to the point, there are a large majority of worship songs that have very little "theology" in them, or what most people would think of theology.

What I mean by theologically flawed songs would be a song which paints a theologically inaccurate picture of God. I have been trying to think of a specific example, but I don't have my notes with me and many times it's very subtle because if it were clearly heretical the song would have been thrown out from the beginning. A generic example would be something like a song that included lyrics about believers becoming angles. This is a pervasive belief among many Christians, but is non Scriptural and is theologically wrong. Would I call it heresy? Not exactly but I don't want to promote that belief among my congregation.

 

[Kahiel]

I am not saying that we should sing "theologically flawed" songs, but what defines a "theologically flawed" song? More to the point, there are a large majority of worship songs that have very little "theology" in them, or what most people would think of theology.

Sorry about the double post but I wanted to comment on this too. I am not sure if you are promoting music with very little theology in them (NTTAWWT), and yes the vast majority of contemporary music doesn't. However, my gifting and passion is for teaching and any opportunity I have to sneak a little theological education in to my congregation is a bonus too me. Many of your classic hymns were rich in theology and were the main way the masses learned it.

 

[cadeyrn]

Kahiel, I agree with what you are saying. The theology of the of the hymn/song is very important, much more so than the musical style. Of course, the average person actually thinks the opposite. It is interesting that all of this is brought up right now, considering that I am in the middle of teaching a Bible study series on worship. And you know what the topic for last week, this week, and next week is? Music in worship. I will add that there are a few groups putting theologically solid (and usually forgotten) hymns to new music. My two favorites are Indellible Grace and Red Mountain Music. Granted, most of the time I still use the hymnal in the church service, but also throw in some of the newer hymns (from the above sources, as well as others).

Colossians 3:15-17 "And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him."

 

[Pheonix28]

What I mean by theologically flawed songs would be a song which paints a theologically inaccurate picture of God. I have been trying to think of a specific example, but I don't have my notes with me and many times it's very subtle because if it were clearly heretical the song would have been thrown out from the beginning. A generic example would be something like a song that included lyrics about believers becoming angles. This is a pervasive belief among many Christians, but is non Scriptural and is theologically wrong. Would I call it heresy? Not exactly but I don't want to promote that belief among my congregation.

I want to be clear, I am not promoting ignorance or bad theology. I would agree with you that it is not something that should be promoted.

As per your example, many Christians do believe that, and while that is sad, it is out of ignorance, and not spite. As such, if there is sincerity in their hearts, are they doing something wrong in worshiping God in their ignorance?

Sorry about the double post but I wanted to comment on this too. I am not sure if you are promoting music with very little theology in them (NTTAWWT), and yes the vast majority of contemporary music doesn't.

To claim the "vast majority" of contemporary music is "lacking in theology" is a very broad statement. A lot of older music is "lacking in theology" as well, and we should stay away from blanket statements such as this.

To be clear, theology may not the the correct word for what I am meaning to say. It might be the right word, just to a different degree.

However, my gifting and passion is for teaching and any opportunity I have to sneak a little theological education in to my congregation is a bonus too me. Many of your classic hymns were rich in theology and were the main way the masses learned it.

Here's the question, why are you praising or worshiping God? Is it to sing "theological" songs to teach the masses? Or is it to praise and worship God? Does a song have to be "theological" to be considered a song of praise to God? (That question doesn't sound right when I re-read it, so y'all might not understand my question.) I believe theology might be too broad of a term to use in my question, but cannot think of anything better right now.

I believe worship to be a very intimate thing, and as such, I believe we can all praise and worship God in different ways. Again, I am not supporting, or promoting ignorance (in fact the exact opposite) however we have to understand that in reality there are a large majority that are ignorant.

As a teacher, you're held to a higher standard. I appreciate that, and understand why you want to "sneak a little theological education" in, but as a teacher it is easy (in fact, that is part of the gift) to want to use every opportunity to teach. While I appreciate that (I am the same) that can leave a bias against things that do not "teach". (I hope you understand what I'm trying to say, it doesn't sound right in my head, but I am unable to formulate better words right now.)

I am not saying that we "should" promote songs that are "theologically flawed", or "lacking in theology". I just think that we can put too much emphasis on being "right" and let that get in the way of God. In essence, letting our intellect get in the way.



We have really gotten off topic haven't we?

 

[Kahiel]

I want to be clear, I am not promoting ignorance or bad theology. I would agree with you that it is not something that should be promoted.

As per your example, many Christians do believe that, and while that is sad, it is out of ignorance, and not spite. As such, if there is sincerity in their hearts, are they doing something wrong in worshiping God in their ignorance?



To claim the "vast majority" of contemporary music is "lacking in theology" is a very broad statement. A lot of older music is "lacking in theology" as well, and we should stay away from blanket statements such as this.

Allow me to clarify my opinion (and it is just that, and opinion). There are a lot of bands out there that fall under the category of "Christian music." A lot of them produce some very good music which I encourage people to listen to. However, a lot of that music isn't intended to be theological in nature and thus really isn't. Singing about how God has saved you from a life of drugs, alcoholism and promiscuous sex is great and may elistit praise for the Father, but its not theological. Nor does it have to be. I personally wouldn't choose such a song for the "praise and worship" part of the service" (the whole service should be worship but that's an entirely different topic). I do think putting a song like that in as a special, or a prelude would be ok if it fit the service.

To be clear, theology may not the the correct word for what I am meaning to say. It might be the right word, just to a different degree.

Ah, we are probably attacking this issue from different angles.

Here's the question, why are you praising or worshiping God? Is it to sing "theological" songs to teach the masses? Or is it to praise and worship God? Does a song have to be "theological" to be considered a song of praise to God? (That question doesn't sound right when I re-read it, so y'all might not understand my question.) I believe theology might be too broad of a term to use in my question, but cannot think of anything better right now.

I believe worship to be a very intimate thing, and as such, I believe we can all praise and worship God in different ways. Again, I am not supporting, or promoting ignorance (in fact the exact opposite) however we have to understand that in reality there are a large majority that are ignorant.

As a teacher, you're held to a higher standard. I appreciate that, and understand why you want to "sneak a little theological education" in, but as a teacher it is easy (in fact, that is part of the gift) to want to use every opportunity to teach. While I appreciate that (I am the same) that can leave a bias against things that do not "teach". (I hope you understand what I'm trying to say, it doesn't sound right in my head, but I am unable to formulate better words right now.)

Ah, see I think we are heading to the same destination. Does a song have to be "theological" to be a praise song? I would have to say no. It should be theologically accurate however. Revelation Song is one of my favorite praise songs. I get God bumps every time I sing it in worship. It is Scriptural, it paints a beautiful picture of Christ's sitting at the right hand of the Father. Does it teach theology, not directly.

I am not saying that we "should" promote songs that are "theologically flawed", or "lacking in theology". I just think that we can put too much emphasis on being "right" and let that get in the way of God. In essence, letting our intellect get in the way.

Agreed. I also have to pay attention to my attitude and not be too critical or God forbid, condemning of those who don't hold the standards I do. If I have come across as such it was not my intent and I beg your (everyone's) forgiveness. Our goal is to Praise the Ever Living God by sharing the Gospel of Jesus in the Spirit of love, drawing all to Him and building His Kingdom.

We have really gotten off topic haven't we?

Yes, so I am going to shut my cake hole now so people can get back to loving some good music.

 

[Ember]

Some previously mentioned:
It is Well with My Soul
The Old Rugged Cross
Come Thou Fount (for the same lyrics Marinus mentioned)

Will also add:
His Eye is on the Sparrow (1905)
I heard the Bells on Christmas Day - has a pretty interesting history. Sorry I'm too lazy to type it on my phone. Words 1864, music 1845/1872 depending which tune.

I'm sure there are others I can't think of right now.

I remembered one I couldn't think of the other day. How Great Thou Art. Which I think still counts, but I looked up the history and it seems newer in terms of English translation and popularity than I had realized.

Thinking about it some more, I'll add:
When I Survey the Wondrous Cross (1707) - I liked it before I ever heard part of it set to a new melody and put with Oh the Wonderful Cross, though I like that song too.
Take My Life and Let It Be (1874) - Edit: another one I liked before it was set to a new tune, but I like the new one too. Actually forgot about the newer tune until just now ^^

I don't know if I'd say it's A FAVORITE, but I kind of enjoy the Doxology (1674). Coming from a church where it wasn't sung every week (or hardly ever) like some churches do. I heard it for the first time in 8th grade, but I didn't really learn it until I was a teenager or so? Now we sing it once in a while at the same church even, but it's not a regular thing.

 

[ursen]

Ok as promised here we go with my favorites. I will try to keep the list short, but there are so many excellent hymns, both in music and lyrics it is hard. And each one deserves a brief commentary.
And Can it Be? - Charles Wesley - 1738 tune Thomas Campbell 1825
It is Well - Horatio Spafford 1873 (Another life witness Hymn)
Doxology - 1674 (one of the greatest simple praise songs ever written)
Send The Fire - William Booth 1894 Tune - Frederick Booth-Tucker
I'll Fly Away - Albert E Brumley 1929
O Boundless Salvation - William Booth 1893 Tune - Variable
Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing - Robert Robinson 1758 Tune John Wyeth 1813
Be Thou My Vision - English translation 1905, actual age covered in previous post.

And I could keep going. A few notes are in order. And can it be is close to be a personal testimony hymn, especially the verse,

Long my imprisoned spirit lay
Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray,
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.

Source: http://www.hymnal.net/hymn.php/h/296#ixzz2SzzBXIvy

Send the Fire, here is a video, not high quality but gives you an idea. If you look at the lyrics this is one of those hymns you don't want to sing prayerfully if you don't want your life changed.

I'll Fly Away is a great little song of hope sung by every little church in the south and the Appalachians. Lots of fun when you have a congregation really cranking on it.

O Boundless Salvation is one of the longest hymns I know of and one which has several tunes to it, but it is frequently shortened down. Very good words that are hard to argue with.

And a lot of commentary already on the last two.

 

[Pheonix28]

And Can it Be? - Charles Wesley - 1738 tune Thomas Campbell 1825

I hadn't heard this song until my post about Praise/Worship songs.

This quickly became one of my favorites.

 

[ursen]

I first heard it at Asbury college at a chapel service. The whole student body backed up by pipe organ, and when I ran into the above verse the tears just rolled.

edit: I just realized that the video for Send The Fire didn't get included in the above post, this will give some idea of what I was talking about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg-tJ4ud6iY
Thou Christ of burning, cleansing flame,
Send the fire, send the fire, send the fire!
Thy blood-bought gift today we claim,
Send the fire, send the fire, send the fire!
Look down and see this waiting host,
Give us the promised Holy Ghost;
We want another Pentecost,
Send the fire, send the fire, send the fire!
God of Elijah, hear our cry:
Send the fire, send the fire, send the fire!
To make us fit to live or die,
Send the fire, send the fire, send the fire!
To burn up every trace of sin,
To bring the light and glory in,
The revolution now begin,
Send the fire, send the fire, send the fire!
’Tis fire we want, for fire we plead,
Send the fire, send the fire, send the fire!
The fire will meet our every need,
Send the fire, send the fire, send the fire!
For strength to ever do the right,
For grace to conquer in the fight,
For pow’r to walk the world in white,
Send the fire, send the fire, send the fire!
To make our weak hearts strong and brave,
Send the fire, send the fire, send the fire!
To live a dying world to save,
Send the fire, send the fire, send the fire!
Oh, see us on Thy altar lay
Our lives, our all, this very day;
To crown the off’ring now we pray,
Send the fire, send the fire, send the fire!

 

[cadeyrn]

I have to say it is very difficult to narrow it down to only a few favorites. Here goes:

1."All Hail the Power of Jesus' Name" by Edward Perronet (1780), using either common tune: Coronation (Oliver Holden, 1793) or Diadem (James Ellor, 1838)

2. "Restitution Chorus" words and music by Francis Blackmer (1915)

3. "Crown Him With Many Crowns" by Matthew Bridges (1851), Tune: Diamdemata (George Elvey, 1868)

4. "Lo, He Comes With Clouds Descending" by Charles Wesley (1758), Tune: Helmsley (attr to Thomas Olivers, 1763, but most likely written earlier by Thomas Arne or Martin Madan) - there are many other tunes for this hymn, but this one seems to fit the meaning of the words the best, and is, in my opinion, the most beautiful of the available tunes.

5. "A Mighty Fortress" by Martin Luther (1529, translated in 1852 by Frederick Hedge), Tune: Ein Feste Burg (also by Martin Luther, though the form in which we now have it is from J. S. Bach's Cantata #80)

6. "It Is Well" by Horatio Spafford (1873), Tune Ville du Havre (Philip P Bliss, 1876)

7. "Alas and Did My Savior Bleed" by Isaac Watts (1707), Tune: Martyrdom/Avon (Hugh Wilson ~1800, based on an eralier Scottish folk melody)

8. "Come Thou Fount" (though I don't like it when the 2nd verse is altered and "ebenezer" is removed) by Robert Robinson (1758), tune: Nettleton (Wyeth's Repository of Sacred Music, 1813)

9. "The God of Abraham Praise" by Thomas Olivers (~1770), Tune: Leoni, arranged from an older synagogue melody (arr. Meyer Lyon, ~1770)

10. "All Creatures of Our God and King" by St. Francis of Assisi (~1225) Translated by William Dapper (1926), Tune: Lasst Uns Erfreuen (Geistliche Kirchengesange, 1623)

Those are just a few. I am a hymn lover, both old and new. I love the work of Keith & Kristyn Getty, Indellible Grace, and Red Mountain Music. I also have a growing hymnal collection (currently at 41, not counting duplicates), although my oldest hymnal is only from 1888. A great resource for all of you that don't have hymnal collections is hymnary.org