Fate/Destiny

W

Wend

The Forgiven Guild Leader
Hey...

As an assignment for school my boys have to write a paper on the topic of fate. They are supposed to email friends and get input as per their ideas of fate, as they spend a bunch of time on the server, we decided that this would be an interesting place to solicit feedback as well.

According to Jared, destiny or fate doesn't exist because God created all the world and He knows what is going to happen in it, so instead of fate it is God deciding.

According to Nikolas, God predetermines the course of someone's life. We get to choose our path. (because we aren't God and we don't know everything..He does but He doesn't use that knowledge to influence how we choose)

*discuss* (please bear in mind that we are talking about a 12yo and a 14yo and this isn't supposed to be a deep philisophical/theological discussion, so if you could limit yourself to 3 sentences or less that would be great)
 
Yay Calvinist/Armenian discussion!

That said, my personal views lean more Calvinist, but before everyone gets out rocks to throw them at me, let me explain.

As a BioPhysicist, I've got to reconcile my views of a natural world with a God who is in control. I think we would all agree that God is not experiencing time as we are. God is outside time, looking in on everything all at once. God knows before we make a decision not only what we will decide, but what the consequences to us (and others) will be.

The Bible references God's omnicience many times...not only knowing everything now and in the past, but also the future. So what happens to us being fate or not may just be a matter of perspective. To God, our consequences are set. To us, they're variable. Since God is smarter than we are, I choose to use His frame of reference and say that our lives are laid out for us already, we just need to follow along with His plan as best we can.

Before this sounds very melodramatic, I should also say that I am hopeful for my pre-determined life, if for no other reason than the Bible says I should be. For those of us that love God, Paul says in Romans that God works all things for our good. That includes all the mistakes and successes that God sees us doing a mile off. =D
 
I know this isin't my part of the forums but I can't resist posting in a thread like this. Kevin, I like how you put that. If you really consider the perspective thing it is quite deep and can blow your mind.

As for my input into the topic, and this refers to Fate/Destiny in regards to Salvation not in general. My mom once told me a simple analogy that stuck. (I will probably butcher it here)

As one of God's kids is approaching Heaven's gates there is a sign over the top saying "Whoever chooses to believe may enter" then as you pass through the gates and look at the back of the sign it reads "You were chosen before the foundations of the World"

It is a matter of perspective.

Kevin said:
Yay Calvinist/Armenian discussion!
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teehee, small grammar cop FYI: An Armenian is someone who is born in Armenia. An Arminian, however, is someone who agrees with the ideas of Jacobus Arminius
 
Keeping my thoughts regarding such a topic to 3 sentences is very tough, lol.

Fate is defined as a sort of compulsory chain of events that will happen because of an action; yet often with one (or a few more) change(s) in a decision(s) one can change their fate, which previously was bound to happen no matter what - now that fate will not happen and another one will. So is 'fate' really real?
 
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A quote from myself on Facebook. Please note that I'm not assuming an assignment for a Christian school:

Fate is, and always has been, a way of describing the seeming order behind the universe and seemedly 'rigged' events without having to ascribe them to actual beings, to whom we would have some sort of responsibility.
In fact, the origin of Fate comes from the ancient Greeks, who (in Homer's writings) saw Fate as a sort of power wielded by Zeus, the... head god, but which Zeus could not overwrite, which would cleverly account for any event that went against the supposed will of the supposed gods and goddesses -- "Hey, wasn't Archameles supposed to survive that, because he's such a good follower of Zeus?" "Yeah, but Zeus used the scales of fate and he, um, lost." -- this meant that there was a higher power than the pantheon of gods and goddesses, but it was a power, not a person, so no need to worship it.
In today's society, Fate is used in a similar manner to refer to coincidences and events without giving them any personal entity or cause; similarly, this allows us to conveniently explain them as "how the world works" or "funny" or "inevitable" without any need to change our way of looking at the world.

Please also note that those are three sentences, but they are probably far above and beyond a 12/14 year old level. So, here only, I present yo with a TL;DR:

TL;DR: Fate is a way of describing the order of the universe without giving it a personality and therefore avoiding any responsibility to worship God.
 
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Well, Anita, you certainly mixed a couple volitile subjects; and those above me have brought them to a simmer. Now let's see if I can make them boil over and see who can stand the heat and who leaves the kitchen. I'll first appologize for exceeding my three-sentence limit. Next, I want to point out that the way I phrase things may come across harsh; this is not my intent, but "speaking softly" with text is difficult and I'm too lazy to type out all the extra words needed to soften things.

Jared and Nikolas, allow me to give you some advice when doing research. First, always consider your source. Seeking input from others is good, but make sure they know what they're talking about. Second, politely ask them to support their view using scripture. Third, read the scripture they use in support of their view and ensure they are not taking it out of context.

Fate is a secular, pagan term used to describe why an event occured when there is no understanding of why the event occured.

The Bible teaches us that God is in control. See 1 Kings 8, specifically verse 37b. See Romans 9:14-24. See Ephesians 2:10.

Although this specific topic is not a Calvinist/Arminian discussion, it does share some common boundaries. I would urge you (everyone, actually) to study church history. Many people think that Calvin took a left turn (deviated from scripture) and developed some bad doctrine that was summarized as a strange acrostic known as TULIP. This is wrong! Arminius published his five Arminian articles know as the Remonstrance, of which on point was claiming man has a "free will." Calvin's TULIP was a rebuttal to the Remonstrance. Arminius' Remonstrance was declared to be heretical at the Council of Dort. If you look further back in history you will find the Pelagian heresy was very similar. It started as a debate between Augustine and Pelagius. Pelagius claimed we have "free will" (with respect to salvation) and this was declared heresy at (if I remember correctly) the Synod of Carthage. Bottom line, "free will," as it relates to salvation, is heretical.

But make no mistake; God does not force us to sin. Our will does that all on its own.
 
I agree with you Sam, and I love reformation history. However, I am not sure I would say Fate is a completely secular and pagan term. I think you can define it in a Christian worldview too.. In my opinion, in the Bible, the concept of fate is manifest as God's Plan. However, a much better word to use is providence. Providence covers the idea of fate/destiny but rightly puts the power in God's hands.
 
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I agree with Sam that as Christians we need to support our beliefs with scripture when answering such questions. That being said I can only describe destiny or fate with the text found in Jeremiah 1.

Jeremiah was called before he was formed, this is how God's plan (destiny or fate) is laid out in every one of our lives whether we choose to believe in Him or not. God places events and laborers in our paths throughout life and he allows us to make the choices we make even though it is already known to Him when and how we will make them. This is part of the beauty of the free will he gave us.

So simply put in three sentences;

Fate is the pre-determined outcome of the events of life; This out come is the direct result of a life spent with or without the Love of Christ. God knows us and our fate before we are formed in the womb (Jer 1:5) because He is Alpha and Omega (Rev 1:8) yet he allows us the gift of free will to choose a relationship with Christ. He grants us eternal life based on offer (John 3:16) when He already knows our decision.
 
pbshaver said:
yet he allows us the gift of free will to choose a relationship with Christ. He grants us eternal life based on offer (John 3:16) when He already knows our decision.
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You have any scripture to back up this claim? Where in the Bible does it say we have a free will to choose Him...when He already knows our decision?

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

The "whoever believes" does not in any way describe how a person comes to belive. A bad analogy is this:

I say, "Whoever falls from this cliff will die." Then we see someone fall off the cliff and die. Was the person pushed or jumped of their own free will? You don't know. John 3:16 simply says that those who believe in Christ shall be saved. It does not imply, infer, or in any other way suggest how that person came to have believing faith.
 
what about :

Joshua 24:15 (English Standard Version)

15And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

This sounds like a lot of choosing going on. :)

Or one of the many situations where a if/then choice is presented.

Acts 16:31 (English Standard Version)

31And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
 
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I'm just taking a moment here to address the words "fate" and "destiny." I will see if I have time to come back and work on the biblical perspective in a way not already presented.

While you can go to Dictionary.com or some such place and look up the definitions of these two words and find them very similar, it is not in the denotation but in the connotation that I believe the real differences lie. "Fate" contains a sense of the unavoidable--you cannot sidestep or circumvent fate. "Destiny," however, is related to "destination" and while someone may have a preferred destination, they make choices in life that determine whether they will reach that destination.

A thought to illustrate Destiny. Jonah goes to Nineveh and preaches "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!" (Jonah 3:4) No ambiguity in this prophecy--their destiny is to be overthrown in 40 days. Yet, they repent before God and their destination changes. This can happen on the other side as well. Someone may receive a prophecy that they are to become a great world preacher and yet they choose to walk away from God and it never happens. (I am not addressing the foreordained vs foreknowledge debate.) This is how I see the difference between destiny and fate.

My two bits on the two words, anyway.
 
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pbshaver said:
...yet he allows us the gift of free will to choose a relationship with Christ. He grants us eternal life based on offer (John 3:16) when He already knows our decision.
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my point here is that in our lives we may be presented many opportunities to give our life over to Christ but in the grand design of free will we are granted the ability to choose when we will accept this great gift. Even though God knows the outcome we are the ones that have to seek His face. A good analogy would be this:

I was introduced to Christianity several times starting at a young age; Several times as a teenager invited to various youth group events with friends. As a young adult I attended some services with friends while in the military and finally a few years later with my wife who prayed over me for years until I was ready to make my decision to let go of the world and grab hold of Christ.


SamIam said:
You have any scripture to back up this claim? Where in the Bible does it say we have a free will to choose Him...when He already knows our decision?
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This verse really pertains to service but the description of the choice to serve is an example of our free will.

Joshua 24:15 (New Living Translation)
But if you refuse to serve the Lord, then choose today whom you will serve. Would you prefer the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates? Or will it be the gods of the Amorites in whose land you now live? But as for me and my family, we will serve the Lord.”

In the following parable you read how many are selected by God to be saved but when one chooses to not fully accept the consequence is to be cast into the darkness.

Matthew 22:1-14 (New Living Translation)
Jesus also told them other parables. He said, 2 “The Kingdom of Heaven can be illustrated by the story of a king who prepared a great wedding feast for his son. 3 When the banquet was ready, he sent his servants to notify those who were invited. But they all refused to come!

4 “So he sent other servants to tell them, ‘The feast has been prepared. The bulls and fattened cattle have been killed, and everything is ready. Come to the banquet!’ 5 But the guests he had invited ignored them and went their own way, one to his farm, another to his business. 6 Others seized his messengers and insulted them and killed them.

7 “The king was furious, and he sent out his army to destroy the murderers and burn their town. 8 And he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, and the guests I invited aren’t worthy of the honor. 9 Now go out to the street corners and invite everyone you see.’ 10 So the servants brought in everyone they could find, good and bad alike, and the banquet hall was filled with guests.

11 “But when the king came in to meet the guests, he noticed a man who wasn’t wearing the proper clothes for a wedding. 12 ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how is it that you are here without wedding clothes?’ But the man had no reply. 13 Then the king said to his aides, ‘Bind his hands and feet and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”




SamIam said:
John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

The "whoever believes" does not in any way describe how a person comes to belive. A bad analogy is this:

I say, "Whoever falls from this cliff will die." Then we see someone fall off the cliff and die. Was the person pushed or jumped of their own free will? You don't know. John 3:16 simply says that those who believe in Christ shall be saved. It does not imply, infer, or in any other way suggest how that person came to have believing faith.
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I was not using John 3:16 to suggest the choice I was using it to describe the gift received when said choice is made. Again, He knows the outcome before we are formed in the womb but we have to be open, willing and ready to accept Christ.

"Some have doubted whether predestination is consistent with the free agency of man. We believe that man does as he pleases, yet notwithstanding he always does as God decrees." ~ Charles Spurgeon
 
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One of the ideas I have heard that really makes sense for me (but may be seen as wishy-washy to others) is the idea of levels of scrutiny:

Let's say you have a digital phone. For some reason you have a friend who has never ever seen a phone before. You also have a friend who is a huge techie, into electrical gadgets and how they work. You, your phone-less friend and your techie friend are all sitting at a coffee shop when your phone-less friend asks you what your phone is and how it works.

You say "it's a device that transmits someone's voice to me, so they can talk into here, and I can listen here, and vice versa, and our voices can reach each other even though we're really far apart."

As you say this, your techie friend jumps in: "That's not true at all! What this device does is create noises based on electrical impulses. The impulses are generated by the device in response to stimulation based on noises that go into the receiver, but the impulses aren't the person's voice at all. With a decent phone, the noises generated by the electronic signals are similar enough to what the person on the other end said, and so they sound like a person's voice. The person's voice is not transferred to you in any way."

Your techie friend is right. So are you. He's just looking closer.

Another example: You're at an art museum. They've got the Mona Lisa. You say to your friend, "that is an amazingly intriguing woman. I wonder what she's looking at?"

Your friend looks at you funny: "That's not a woman, it's a carefully arranged set of pigments on a canvas. It's not looking at anything."

Once again, you are both right, although something might be odd about your choice of friends.


The way I see it, God gives people free will, the freedom to make choices. But, of course, if you look very very closely, you may be able to see that choices are often predetermined reactions to stimuli. At that level, you're like the person who can't see the Mona Lisa for the paint splatters.

Contrarily, I also believe that God preordains everything. But that doesn't negate free will. Yes, we make choices, and yes, we get to decide those things, but this does not mean that God is not in control. Our choice is a pigment splatter, God's will is the Mona Lisa. Ultimately, in the end, we will get to step back and see God's providence and it will blow our minds, like the Mona Lisa can. It's a matter of perspective.
 
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