Excommunication verse?
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LionOfJudah
Member, Dreamcast Fishing Guru
talking about sexual immorality in the CHurch, men where having sex with their mothers and sisters, Paul was telling them this is unacceptable, and they need to be cast out so that the people realize this is not appriotate behavior and to save the church, a church is like a big bowl of fruit one starts to go rotten, better to toss it than risk the entire bowl.
Paul never said that once they stopped their sinning that cuased them to be cast out, that they could not rejoin the church.
Paul never said that once they stopped their sinning that cuased them to be cast out, that they could not rejoin the church.
Master~Plan
New Member
I have a question on this topic. If all sins are the same, then what sins are worth excommunicating someone over, and what sins aren't? or should we even excommunicate people from a church? Ive never seen it done...
Kidan
Moderator
it's not a matter of a single sin. rather it's constant repeating of that single sin, flaunting that sin in the face of the church and those around us. Hypocrites, who constantly and consistently, say they're Christians, but live like degenerates (and no, I'm not saying those with other or without religion are degenerates) are those whom are eligible for excommunication.
Master~Plan
New Member
^ yeah, that makes sense. Excommunicating for one who has been confronted and will not repent, rather than for the sin that has been committed
Ultima Avatar
New Member
Uhhuh. The thing is...how often does modern Christianity confront?
Or else Oral Roberts woulda been outta his job long, long ago. Same for Copeland. And Chick. And Hinn. And...
Or else Oral Roberts woulda been outta his job long, long ago. Same for Copeland. And Chick. And Hinn. And...
Avesther
New Member
Who is in position to confront somebody like Benny Hinn? or Copeland?
Ultima Avatar
New Member
The crowds that get to read their crud. The crowds that to get to watch them and see the Totally Toll Free numbers to call them to send in gillions of dollars to their fat pockets.
Other preachers are in the power. Hank Hannegraaf (I have absolutely no idea how to spell this) wrote an awesome book against Copeland. Preachers can denounce other preachers, and don't say it's not Biblical, because the first thing Paul did when he waltzed in to see his Jew pals moving around with the Gentiles when the Jews weren't there and with the Jews when the Jews were there was denounce them, and he denounced Peter, as well.
Denouncement is part of our calling. We can't just sit by and idle and say, "Uh-huh! Well, that's a cryin' shame, but he's got too much money. He regularly buys yachts for God's business with our donations. Nope, can't do a thing about it. Just pray ter God for swift retribution." "No, honey! Pray for mercy!" "Woman, I say pray for wrath. Elisha got it, didn't he? Stupid kids..."
Prayer may work. I have doubts myself at times about the effectiveness of prayer for certain things. Other things I believe prayer can affect, but peace, or mercy or all that or these intangible factors...I believe it's moot to pray for them. You have to do them yourself. And, hey, maybe that's fulfilling the prayers of those who do think that prayer for such works.
Instance. In my house, my mother subscribes to Billy Graham (I'm not going to say a word...) and used to get Copeland's cretinous filth "Believer's Voice of Victory" until I began to denounce his crap in my house. "Hey, mom! Open your eyes! Do you ever read this stuff? 'Send us your money, and we'll double it. We even falsify letters to us from believers who get their money double and tripled at home after sending us money! Ha ha! Isn't Jesus just wonderful?' and of course, 'When you sign on with Jesus, life will be just the easiest thing for you, because Jesus makes it so wonderful. Chant that name with me, Jesus, Jesus, Kenny, uhh...Jesus, Jesus, Jesus...' and you can't forget THIS major load of bull excrete, when ol' Kenny takes up 'the voice of God' and prophesies unto us the pagans and the lost. In fact. God sounds an awful lot like a modern teen considering his use of the words Yeah and No way and This is how it's gonna be: My way shall be established in 2003. I'm coming. Oh, boy, am I comin' soon. Be ready. Crap, it wasn't 2003, it was 2004! Oh, boy, am I comin'. Prepare my way with frond leaves, figuratively meaning DOLLAR BILLS. Send your money to Kenneth, my one true servant, and ignore the other pagans, like Hank Hanegraaf."
Wow, am I ticked.
Other preachers are in the power. Hank Hannegraaf (I have absolutely no idea how to spell this) wrote an awesome book against Copeland. Preachers can denounce other preachers, and don't say it's not Biblical, because the first thing Paul did when he waltzed in to see his Jew pals moving around with the Gentiles when the Jews weren't there and with the Jews when the Jews were there was denounce them, and he denounced Peter, as well.
Denouncement is part of our calling. We can't just sit by and idle and say, "Uh-huh! Well, that's a cryin' shame, but he's got too much money. He regularly buys yachts for God's business with our donations. Nope, can't do a thing about it. Just pray ter God for swift retribution." "No, honey! Pray for mercy!" "Woman, I say pray for wrath. Elisha got it, didn't he? Stupid kids..."
Prayer may work. I have doubts myself at times about the effectiveness of prayer for certain things. Other things I believe prayer can affect, but peace, or mercy or all that or these intangible factors...I believe it's moot to pray for them. You have to do them yourself. And, hey, maybe that's fulfilling the prayers of those who do think that prayer for such works.
Instance. In my house, my mother subscribes to Billy Graham (I'm not going to say a word...) and used to get Copeland's cretinous filth "Believer's Voice of Victory" until I began to denounce his crap in my house. "Hey, mom! Open your eyes! Do you ever read this stuff? 'Send us your money, and we'll double it. We even falsify letters to us from believers who get their money double and tripled at home after sending us money! Ha ha! Isn't Jesus just wonderful?' and of course, 'When you sign on with Jesus, life will be just the easiest thing for you, because Jesus makes it so wonderful. Chant that name with me, Jesus, Jesus, Kenny, uhh...Jesus, Jesus, Jesus...' and you can't forget THIS major load of bull excrete, when ol' Kenny takes up 'the voice of God' and prophesies unto us the pagans and the lost. In fact. God sounds an awful lot like a modern teen considering his use of the words Yeah and No way and This is how it's gonna be: My way shall be established in 2003. I'm coming. Oh, boy, am I comin' soon. Be ready. Crap, it wasn't 2003, it was 2004! Oh, boy, am I comin'. Prepare my way with frond leaves, figuratively meaning DOLLAR BILLS. Send your money to Kenneth, my one true servant, and ignore the other pagans, like Hank Hanegraaf."
Wow, am I ticked.
Kidan
Moderator
hehe...you've been reading alot of Hank haven't ya.
but I do have one thing that's an issue (besides the anger your obviously feeling which is rarely a good thing) in that you say 'preachers can denounce preachers' rather it should be 'any Christian can denounce a preacher.'
Any Christian can go up to a pastor, and ask for a Biblical reference, and reasoning for a stance on what that pastor has preached. If they're not able to provide it, they shouldn't have been preaching it.
but I do have one thing that's an issue (besides the anger your obviously feeling which is rarely a good thing) in that you say 'preachers can denounce preachers' rather it should be 'any Christian can denounce a preacher.'
Any Christian can go up to a pastor, and ask for a Biblical reference, and reasoning for a stance on what that pastor has preached. If they're not able to provide it, they shouldn't have been preaching it.
Avesther
New Member
You have to be careful with denouncing other pastors. You don't want to come of sounding like them. My understanding is that many of these evangilists and TV persona preachers have been denounced over and over and over again.
I think it is important for the congregation to which you belong to begin to equip itself against these preachers as well. The ministerial staff could have ongoing training seminars in which they show how these people are preaching a different gospel and a different Jesus. That way, the congregation will be armed against false teachings and they can go out an teach others how to spot deceptions.
Benny Hinn is coming to Calgary (my home city) August 12 & 13. I've been tempted to go see what all the fuss is about. I am also strongly in favour of not being in the city during that time. On the one hand, I may be walking into the perverbial hornets nest risking deception myself just to satisfy some morbid curiosity and on the other hand, I want to flee. Tough call.
I think it is important for the congregation to which you belong to begin to equip itself against these preachers as well. The ministerial staff could have ongoing training seminars in which they show how these people are preaching a different gospel and a different Jesus. That way, the congregation will be armed against false teachings and they can go out an teach others how to spot deceptions.
Benny Hinn is coming to Calgary (my home city) August 12 & 13. I've been tempted to go see what all the fuss is about. I am also strongly in favour of not being in the city during that time. On the one hand, I may be walking into the perverbial hornets nest risking deception myself just to satisfy some morbid curiosity and on the other hand, I want to flee. Tough call.
Ultima Avatar
New Member
Yea, an would it not be better for my spirit to depart this fleshly place, that I may go to be with Christ, than to stay among this world to aid the many and the lost?
That was Paul, or something like it...so you sound like
Yea, an would it not be better for my spirit to depart my home city than to attend unto a Benny Hinn "service"?
I don't know. I'd be split about a choice like that. "Satan's having a party in town...now do I go and denounce him or do I just quietly sneak out of sight?" It's a tough call, but it's the one that's up to you. I'd personally go to see Hinn.
What reminded me of Hinn was this Baptist church that handed out these things called tracts by the lovable Jack "Catholics Burn in Hell with All the Other Unbelievers and Jews" Chick. They're hilarious. My dad loves reading them because they're so funny, and I just find them amusing. I think it's interesting that anyone would waste so much time trying to damn the world when they could be doing something useful besides using that word "Jesus" in bold letters by outstanding Christian men and women who never sin, yea, because sin is of the Devil, and to be a Christian is to never sin, and such and such.
I really hate our world and what it's come to, but you gotta admit: Elmer Gantry did have quite a point.
That was Paul, or something like it...so you sound like
Yea, an would it not be better for my spirit to depart my home city than to attend unto a Benny Hinn "service"?
I don't know. I'd be split about a choice like that. "Satan's having a party in town...now do I go and denounce him or do I just quietly sneak out of sight?" It's a tough call, but it's the one that's up to you. I'd personally go to see Hinn.
What reminded me of Hinn was this Baptist church that handed out these things called tracts by the lovable Jack "Catholics Burn in Hell with All the Other Unbelievers and Jews" Chick. They're hilarious. My dad loves reading them because they're so funny, and I just find them amusing. I think it's interesting that anyone would waste so much time trying to damn the world when they could be doing something useful besides using that word "Jesus" in bold letters by outstanding Christian men and women who never sin, yea, because sin is of the Devil, and to be a Christian is to never sin, and such and such.
I really hate our world and what it's come to, but you gotta admit: Elmer Gantry did have quite a point.
Avesther
New Member
[b said:
So do I. And then, that brings me to another cunondrum. All the changes we are experiencing that we view as negative or anti Christian are all signs pointing to the returning of the King. Do you stand up against them, or do you quietly pray for them to happen more and more? Or do you do both?
Christs return is a joyous thought. The crown of rightouesness awaits all who long for and love Jesus' return.
Ultima Avatar
New Member
Oh, I don't long so much for the Return as I do the destruction. I realize it's supposedly painful to God to destroy everything, but I have to doubt that given the fascination and the ease by which we destroy things.
Most things are easier to destroy than they are to create, it seems. Take a trashbag. Insanely difficult. It requires special machiner to make, but behold, with scissors, I have ruined the object in a few quick snips. Look at a building. Ungodly months or years to build a hotel or a bank or something, and then all I do is take a wrecking crane and smash it through the window, or plant some C4 and FWOOM there it goes. All that work in just a few minutes. Or, heck, if you're in a Taliban mood, just ram a couple airliners into them.
And I have to wonder if God's coming, at all. Or if he'll just wipe the world. I have doubts against a rapture or anything like that, and I wonder if we'll all just be immolated along with everybody else when God decides to dissolve everything by heat.
Either way, I'm cool.
And I wonder if Jesus was the messiah. I think the Jews are right in that respect: Jesus wasn't the messiah. They have yet to have their messiah come. Jesus did a lot of things, and had a role to fulfill, but the messiah it was not: the Savior it was. Ultimately, yes, Jesus will unite everybody together, but I don't think he's the messiah.
I think the messiah is the Antichrist, and what joy to the world we'll all have then. "The Messiah has come! And look! There's a big glow in the sky! And oh, dear G-d, it's Yeshu!"
Or whatever.
Why should I pray against factors that say "Let the world end anytime"? I habitually curse this world, just as much as I thank God for letting me live in it, because it's a coupling: there's always good and bad in it. Take nature. Never really did anything but come into existence. Now take man. Never really did anything but come into existence, but you don't see a tree trying to prove that God does not exist. You see man trying to do that, just as you see man taking a sword to everybody who disagrees with anything he says. That's what armies are for. "Dude! Why aren't you listening to me? All right, boys, find WMDs so we can bomb them or just kill them all!"
Why should I pray for peace?
Most things are easier to destroy than they are to create, it seems. Take a trashbag. Insanely difficult. It requires special machiner to make, but behold, with scissors, I have ruined the object in a few quick snips. Look at a building. Ungodly months or years to build a hotel or a bank or something, and then all I do is take a wrecking crane and smash it through the window, or plant some C4 and FWOOM there it goes. All that work in just a few minutes. Or, heck, if you're in a Taliban mood, just ram a couple airliners into them.
And I have to wonder if God's coming, at all. Or if he'll just wipe the world. I have doubts against a rapture or anything like that, and I wonder if we'll all just be immolated along with everybody else when God decides to dissolve everything by heat.
Either way, I'm cool.
And I wonder if Jesus was the messiah. I think the Jews are right in that respect: Jesus wasn't the messiah. They have yet to have their messiah come. Jesus did a lot of things, and had a role to fulfill, but the messiah it was not: the Savior it was. Ultimately, yes, Jesus will unite everybody together, but I don't think he's the messiah.
I think the messiah is the Antichrist, and what joy to the world we'll all have then. "The Messiah has come! And look! There's a big glow in the sky! And oh, dear G-d, it's Yeshu!"
Or whatever.
Why should I pray against factors that say "Let the world end anytime"? I habitually curse this world, just as much as I thank God for letting me live in it, because it's a coupling: there's always good and bad in it. Take nature. Never really did anything but come into existence. Now take man. Never really did anything but come into existence, but you don't see a tree trying to prove that God does not exist. You see man trying to do that, just as you see man taking a sword to everybody who disagrees with anything he says. That's what armies are for. "Dude! Why aren't you listening to me? All right, boys, find WMDs so we can bomb them or just kill them all!"
Why should I pray for peace?
Avesther
New Member
God promised that this is a world without end. God promises to renew the earth and heavan. The signs are not pointing to a coming destruction. Jesus doesn't reign over a destroyed earth and a destroyed people. Hardly a kingship.
Man! there are some serious issues here!!
Let me be controversial. as usual. LOL
Let me start with a statement. We are all accountable for our faith. The people that you listen to/are accountable to, are people who love you(when you are in ministry or not!). I wouldn't listen to some potty mouth slanderer even if he was right. You have to earn the right to speak into people's lives. The word says that 'they' will know you by your love for one another. Paul confronted, but in love. To many people confront these days with 'religion', idle words when used without love, therefore, any actions not done in love is wasted. read 1 cor 13. find me anyone who can justify attitude without love.
If you can't love someone, then its time to check you heart before the Lord. With attitude towards a brother, or unforgiveness in your own heart, you will find YOURSELF disaqualified from the ear of the FATHER.
This said, the pharasees saw the miracles Jesus did, (which qualified him as messiah!!) butfor their religious arguing, they couldn't see the truth. ie they didn't have the eyes to see what was infront of them, or the ears to hear.
MANY REAL MIRACLES HAPPEN FROM BENNY HINN AND OTHER EVANGEILSTS. They may have areas that need checking but fear God before you open your mouth defiantly against what the Spirit is doing through them.... There may be things about thier ministry you don't like. In fact it's easy to find fault. Let me walk through any of your houses, classrooms or bedrooms and i can find SOMETHING to whine about.LOL But look at the fruit. The good fruit, not all the whiners, who by their faithless criticism don't display love. Just cos there is alot of them doesn't make them right. There is always a crowd complaining! Look at the healings, the SALVATIONS. that's fruit. that's real. thats more than what I have done this week. SO when you have paid the price and have greater fruit, you can worry about mentoring others. Otherwise, find the good fruit and be inspired to draw closer to the Lord for yourselves! its all about perspective.
Money.
The lord says be a blessing. That if you bless a prophet, you will share in HIS (the prophet who you bless)blessing.
So what they say is right. If you bless them you will be blessed. Money is a tool, so use it. If it has a hold over you, let it go! ring that number of the guy you hate and bless him. Know that he will tell the gospel to someone in a state you will never go. Free yourself from a little misery knowing you have hleped someone lelp someone else. When God said to give to the poor, or bless others he didn't ask you to follow them to see what they'll spend it on. You give, and HE blesses. Remember the Lord, it's HIS word
Jesus had people finance his ministry. Women infact. So did paul. Whether you give or not is up to you. But to sow seed guarentees a harvest. If you are a farmer and you keep your seed ina barn YOU WILL GET NO HARVEST. guarenteed.
The lord gives us both seed to eat and seed to sow. Are you eating all of it, sowing none, burying it in the ground. What was the last thing you gave sacraficially too?? If there is no answer, it's not that these guys are getting the money that's the problem. I think it's more about your heart attitude towards wealth.
Food for thought.
Love you all.
sealcomm
Let me be controversial. as usual. LOL
Let me start with a statement. We are all accountable for our faith. The people that you listen to/are accountable to, are people who love you(when you are in ministry or not!). I wouldn't listen to some potty mouth slanderer even if he was right. You have to earn the right to speak into people's lives. The word says that 'they' will know you by your love for one another. Paul confronted, but in love. To many people confront these days with 'religion', idle words when used without love, therefore, any actions not done in love is wasted. read 1 cor 13. find me anyone who can justify attitude without love.
If you can't love someone, then its time to check you heart before the Lord. With attitude towards a brother, or unforgiveness in your own heart, you will find YOURSELF disaqualified from the ear of the FATHER.
This said, the pharasees saw the miracles Jesus did, (which qualified him as messiah!!) butfor their religious arguing, they couldn't see the truth. ie they didn't have the eyes to see what was infront of them, or the ears to hear.
MANY REAL MIRACLES HAPPEN FROM BENNY HINN AND OTHER EVANGEILSTS. They may have areas that need checking but fear God before you open your mouth defiantly against what the Spirit is doing through them.... There may be things about thier ministry you don't like. In fact it's easy to find fault. Let me walk through any of your houses, classrooms or bedrooms and i can find SOMETHING to whine about.LOL But look at the fruit. The good fruit, not all the whiners, who by their faithless criticism don't display love. Just cos there is alot of them doesn't make them right. There is always a crowd complaining! Look at the healings, the SALVATIONS. that's fruit. that's real. thats more than what I have done this week. SO when you have paid the price and have greater fruit, you can worry about mentoring others. Otherwise, find the good fruit and be inspired to draw closer to the Lord for yourselves! its all about perspective.
Money.
The lord says be a blessing. That if you bless a prophet, you will share in HIS (the prophet who you bless)blessing.
So what they say is right. If you bless them you will be blessed. Money is a tool, so use it. If it has a hold over you, let it go! ring that number of the guy you hate and bless him. Know that he will tell the gospel to someone in a state you will never go. Free yourself from a little misery knowing you have hleped someone lelp someone else. When God said to give to the poor, or bless others he didn't ask you to follow them to see what they'll spend it on. You give, and HE blesses. Remember the Lord, it's HIS word
Jesus had people finance his ministry. Women infact. So did paul. Whether you give or not is up to you. But to sow seed guarentees a harvest. If you are a farmer and you keep your seed ina barn YOU WILL GET NO HARVEST. guarenteed.
The lord gives us both seed to eat and seed to sow. Are you eating all of it, sowing none, burying it in the ground. What was the last thing you gave sacraficially too?? If there is no answer, it's not that these guys are getting the money that's the problem. I think it's more about your heart attitude towards wealth.
Food for thought.
Love you all.
sealcomm
I'd like to respond to the excommunicating of people in church. What i usually fail to see in that question is when do we accept them back in church. I once knew of a man persoanlly in church who did things for show and come to find out he was ripping people off through his construction business. The church excommunicated him. Funney thing is the guy got cancer but also repented in his relationship with God. I am not sure in which order those events happened but i do know his faith was no longer about show and was genuine. I look at it like this excommunication should be those who are cought in there sin and still refuse to repent. When a person chooses to repent they should be allowed abck into church.
Master~Plan
New Member
^ ten four
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New Member
To disagree with you Peon, 2 Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and teh elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up."
Doesn't sound like renewal. Sounds like utter destruction, and then comes the New Heaven and the New Earth of Revelation. EVerything's getting wiped by purifying fire before it's rebuilt. Not renewed.
There is a belief (I don't know what kind) that states that we WON'T be wiped out, but merely healed and the evil of the world removed away. No Tribulation, none of that. Just a wipeout of evil. "Two men in the field and then one is gone". The one would be the evil. Not a rapture. Just a removal.
I don't know. I like the thought of our world being completely eradicated.
But sealcomm...good things don't outweigh the sin. We don't believe like that. We believe that we should resist the devil and flee. "Oh, he's a gay pastor of a megachurch. It's okay. I mean, look at all the orphanages he's built!" We CANNOT look at an issue that way. If Jack Chick is doing "God's work" by issuing out those disgusting tracts, that doesn't excuse the biased crud within them. Killing somebody in the name of God doesn't excuse the murder.
Stealing money and filtering out nonsense and garbage in with the Gospel doesn't justify their evangelism.
Doesn't sound like renewal. Sounds like utter destruction, and then comes the New Heaven and the New Earth of Revelation. EVerything's getting wiped by purifying fire before it's rebuilt. Not renewed.
There is a belief (I don't know what kind) that states that we WON'T be wiped out, but merely healed and the evil of the world removed away. No Tribulation, none of that. Just a wipeout of evil. "Two men in the field and then one is gone". The one would be the evil. Not a rapture. Just a removal.
I don't know. I like the thought of our world being completely eradicated.
But sealcomm...good things don't outweigh the sin. We don't believe like that. We believe that we should resist the devil and flee. "Oh, he's a gay pastor of a megachurch. It's okay. I mean, look at all the orphanages he's built!" We CANNOT look at an issue that way. If Jack Chick is doing "God's work" by issuing out those disgusting tracts, that doesn't excuse the biased crud within them. Killing somebody in the name of God doesn't excuse the murder.
Stealing money and filtering out nonsense and garbage in with the Gospel doesn't justify their evangelism.