Emotional Responses to Scripture...

[GenghisKhan44]

Or "burning in the bosom" - which is a phrase Mormons use to describe what you should feel when you read the Book of Mormon and pray about it. I think it's supposed to describe some sort of emotional euphoria and "feeling good".

Now, for a Mormon (as you know, I am not one, so take this with a grain of salt), this is sufficient evidence for them that the Book of Mormon is Scripture and inspired by God. Because it gives them "warm fuzzies". (At least, that's what they tell me to believe when they offer me a Book of Mormon.)

Now, I know for my part, as a Catholic, that an emotional response to Scripture is nice. And sometimes feeling that the Holy Spirit is calling you through a certain passage is beneficial. But emotions do not determine what is or is not the word of God. The ecumenical councils did that already.

But what is the Protestant understanding of emotions in relation to Scripture? And for that matter, of what makes Scripture Scripture? (It's not only because you get "warm fuzzies" from reading it. Is it? )

 

[Wolfeman]

Depends on the denomination. Charismatics believe experience trumps everything while Baptist believe the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. It's nice to have warm and fuzzies when reading, praying, praising or anything else we do in God's name but it's not required and if it goes against Scripture then no matter what you "feel" it's not of God.

 

[Abba San]

Yes and yes - thanks guys. That would be my position as well.

 

[Missional Gaming]

Traditionally Protestants are pretty anti-warm-fuzzy-feelings when it comes to authority. As far as what makes Scripture Scripture I would encourage you to read Scripture Alone by James R. White

 

[Patriot]

Depends on the denomination. Charismatics believe experience trumps everything while Baptist believe the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. It's nice to have warm and fuzzies when reading, praying, praising or anything else we do in God's name but it's not required and if it goes against Scripture then no matter what you "feel" it's not of God.

This.

 

[ChristGuard]

Depends on the denomination. Charismatics believe experience trumps everything while Baptist believe the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. It's nice to have warm and fuzzies when reading, praying, praising or anything else we do in God's name but it's not required and if it goes against Scripture then no matter what you "feel" it's not of God.

What? Wait? What? This is not true at all, how can you speak for charismatics like that? First of all, Charismatic is such a broad term, and should not be used as a denominational identifier. I am an ordained Southern Baptist pastor and I consider myself Charismatic. In fact, every Charismatic church I have ever belonged to (Including Pentecostalism and Assemblies of God) believes that Scripture, not experience, trumps everything. They have all believed that the heart is deceitfully wicked, because that is what scripture said. The only place I have heard that "Experience" has any value at all is in the Methodist university I went to, but they believe God changes and that the Word is not relevant. I would also hardly call them Charismatic.

Emotions are part of the flesh, and warm feelings are often times a symptom of living in a cursed world and in a cursed flesh.

 

[ChristGuard]

My name is Reverend Christian Louis Shields and I am a minister in the Southern Carolina Baptist Association (Part of the Southern Baptist Convention SBC). Let me find you the official SBC stance on this issue, as I am not a spokesperson for them I can't tell you that you can quote me on that stance, but I can find somebody you can quote.

 

[Wolfeman]

My apologies. I was unaware the SBC considered itself or part of itself charismatic. I was aware of the long slide towards praise and worship and it's inclusion of women into leadership roles but not that it considered itself charismatic. My statement was entirely too broad.

My definition of charismatic would probably be more in line with Pentecostalism, however there are charismatic groups it could cover as well. I was referring to groups that practice women speaking in tongues or multiple people speaking in tongues without an interpreter. To groups that practice 'I have received a new revelation from God" or that believe salvation is dependent upon being filled with the Holy Spirit AND speaking in tongues as a sign of that salvation. Living where I live, I've had many conversations with people who no matter what they are shown in the Bible still hold to "I know what I felt". Those are the groups I speak of under the broad term of charismatic.

 

[ChristGuard]

Section II-C of the SBC's statement of faith (Emphasis Added):

C. God the Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, fully divine. He inspired holy men of old to write the Scriptures. Through illumination He enables men to understand truth. He exalts Christ. He convicts men of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. He calls men to the Saviour, and effects regeneration. At the moment of regeneration He baptizes every believer into the Body of Christ. He cultivates Christian character, comforts believers, and bestows the spiritual gifts by which they serve God through His church. He seals the believer unto the day of final redemption. His presence in the Christian is the guarantee that God will bring the believer into the fullness of the stature of Christ. He enlightens and empowers the believer and the church in worship, evangelism, and service.

Genesis 1:2; Judges 14:6; Job 26:13; Psalms 51:11; 139:7ff.; Isaiah 61:1-3; Joel 2:28-32; Matthew 1:18; 3:16; 4:1; 12:28-32; 28:19; Mark 1:10,12; Luke 1:35; 4:1,18-19; 11:13; 12:12; 24:49; John 4:24; 14:16-17,26; 15:26; 16:7-14; Acts 1:8; 2:1-4,38; 4:31; 5:3; 6:3; 7:55; 8:17,39; 10:44; 13:2; 15:28; 16:6; 19:1-6; Romans 8:9-11,14-16,26-27; 1 Corinthians 2:10-14; 3:16; 12:3-11,13; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; 5:18; 1 Thessalonians 5:19; 1 Timothy 3:16; 4:1; 2 Timothy 1:14; 3:16; Hebrews 9:8,14; 2 Peter 1:21; 1 John 4:13; 5:6-7; Revelation 1:10; 22:17.

Source

Note the the Baptist statement of Faith clearly states that the Holy Spirit bestows His gifts on believers (The gifts of the Holy Spirit are general the dividing line between charismatics and non-charismatics). The gifts of the Holy spirit are laid out in 1 Corrinthians 12:7-11 (Note that this verse is directly referenced in the Baptist article of faith above)

"7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines."

That's right, Baptist OFFICIALLY believe in Speaking in Tongues, Prophecy, and Healing! I don't know what is more charismatic than that. In fact, I find the ONLY difference between Baptist and Pentecostals is the issue of 'Eternal salvation' where baptist officially believe "He (The Holy Spirit) seals the believer unto the day of final redemption." Where as Pentecostals believe that you can lose or give up your salvation.

If you have any other questions please let me know.

 

[Wolfeman]

Now you're using Baptist as an overly broad term. SBC is not the same as Baptist. I know many Baptist groups who would not and do not agree with these statements. If you are going to get upset about overly broad generalizations, please don't make them yourself.

But thank you very much for the information.

Now back to the topic at hand...

 

[Sarugon]

Baptists acknowledging the existence of spiritual gifts is a far cry from placing the same kind of emphasis on certain gifts that the Pentecostals do, not to mention differing views on the natures of those gifts in some cases. Your post on the distinction (or rather lack there of) between the two denominations is more than a bit misleading.

Edit: This was in reference to Christguard's post, not Wolfeman's.

 

[ChristGuard]

Also, here is the UPCI (From my understanding the most charismatic of the Pentecostal denominations) stance on the Bible:

"About the Bible

The Bible is the infallible Word of God and the authority for salvation and Christian living. (See II Timothy 3:15-17.)"
Source

If anything, this disproves your claim that Pentecostals hold experience over the Word of God. In fact the word "experience" is no where in their "What we Believe".

 

[ChristGuard]

Your post on the distinction (or rather lack there of) between the two denominations is more than a bit misleading.

Can you be more specific? I am a Baptist pastor who speaks in tongues, sings and tongues, and believes in the translation of tongues. My wife is our worship leader and relies only on the Holy spirit when picking out worship music. Thrice a month we have worship night where no worship music is picked and she just praises God without a schedule, people prophecy, speak in tongues, and interpreted tongues. Once a month we have art and worship night which is similar, but also provides art supplies for artist to paint prophetic art.

Tell me, what is the distinction between my church and a UPCI church exactly (other than the distinction I made about eternal salvation)?

 

[Wolfeman]

The fact is, Wolfman, the language you used was incredibly divisive and not at all true. Both Baptist and Pentecostals believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit (Speaking in tongues, namely) and the hold the Bible to be God's ultimate authority. It's sounds like you have had some bad experiences from local churches and are projecting such experiences onto a global scale, and that in no way is beneficial to the Kingdom of Christ.

As I already stated, I am sorry for the over generalization. I speak from 5 years experience in North Carolina, 10 years experience in Chicago, 5 years in Germany, 5 years in Kentucky, 3 years in Kansas and 10 years in Mississippi. My wife grew up in a SBC church that was strongly conservative until about 10 years ago when a deacon forced his bible college graduating daughter on the church. I live near Bellevue Baptist Church (one of the largest SBC churches in America) and watched what happened to it when Adrian Rogers (very very conservative and still on the radio) was replaced with Steven Gaines. Up until 2 years ago Memphis was also home of the annual COGIC convention and they are strongly Pentecostal. My experience has been that while rapidly becoming more liberal, the SBC was not anything close to what I have experienced witnessing to COGIC or Pentecostal practitioners in practices. This is especially true of speaking in tongues which is practiced in numerous churches in my current area mostly by women without an interpreter solely as a sign of salvation. You have shown me that I am wrong and I'm sorry for the generalizations. However, as with Baptist, there are many many denominations and practices within the charismatic movement and please understand that generalizations are often not personal attacks. It does appear however that we differ strongly on how we interpert different Bible passages supporting these practices

Can you be more specific? I am a Baptist pastor who speaks in tongues, sings and tongues, and believes in the translation of tongues. My wife is our worship leader and relies only on the Holy spirit when picking out worship music. Thrice a month we have worship night where no worship music is picked and she just praises God without a schedule, people prophecy, speak in tongues, and interpreted tongues. Once a month we have art and worship night which is similar, but also provides art supplies for artist to paint prophetic art.

Could you please be more specific with your denominational tags. You are a SBC Baptist Pastor who does such things. I am an Independent Baptist Preacher who preaches against such things. We both claim to be Baptist but according to our interpretations of Scripture we both have very different practices. We have already demonstrated the confusion caused by over generalizations. Please join me to help stop the confusion and contention by being more specific in our statements.

 

[Lloren]

Friendly PSA: Let's try and stick to scripture and not use our credentials or backgrounds to bolster our opinions.

 

[Wolfeman]

Friendly PSA: Let's try and stick to scripture and not use our credentials or backgrounds to bolster our opinions.

I was using my background and credentials to explain my opinions about charismatic and pentacostal denominations. Not bolster. But thank you for the reminder. Also can we get this thread back on topic?

 

[ChristGuard]

Friendly PSA: Let's try and stick to scripture and not use our credentials or backgrounds to bolster our opinions.

I don't think anyone was doing that. Wolf asked for my credentials, so I gave them. And considering we were having a conversation about denominations I think the credentials that wolf talked about in his post were relevant.

 

[ChristGuard]

It does appear however that we differ strongly on how we interpert different Bible passages supporting these practices



Could you please be more specific with your denominational tags. You are a SBC Baptist Pastor who does such things. I am an Independent Baptist Preacher who preaches against such things. We both claim to be Baptist but according to our interpretations of Scripture we both have very different practices. We have already demonstrated the confusion caused by over generalizations. Please join me to help stop the confusion and contention by being more specific in our statements.

I just want to be clear here, I am less offended by the generalization as I am with the fact that you suggested Pentecostals hold experience above scripture. I was never offended by the generalization, I just wanted to point out it was not entirely correct. I am sorry if you thought I was offended by that. So hopefully we can move past that point and focus on the "emotions".

That being said, obviously there are many churches that call themselves baptist that do not follow the SBC's articles of faith, and thus are unaffiliated with the SBC, I can't speak for such churches. Inasmuch, I am sure there are churches that claim the Pentecostal title and don't follow the PCI's statement of faith.

I am sorry if you thought I was offended by that. So hopefully we can move past that point and focus on the "emotions".

I will state again that neither Pentecostals nor Baptists, in general, hold experience higher than scripture. This, to me, is a huge issue, and I will tell you why. I believe that the Bible is the Word of God, perfect, complete, and without error or contradiction. I also believe that this is a fundamental of Christianity, I believe if you go to a church that does not preach this, then you do not go to a Christian church. So, when someone says that a church holds something higher to scripture, especially when it is not a church they belong to, then that person is saying to me that that church is not Christian.

Now, if someone here want's to profess that feelings, emotion, or experience trumps scripture then we can have a debate, but it sounds like to me that we are all on the same page. Scripture is the highest authority, and I would bet that most here, including myself, believe that Scripture is the ONLY authority. While God talks to me, teaches me, instructs me, and guides me, He does all of this things aligned with his Holy Word. If anyone disagrees, please speak up =D

On a side not, what part of NC did you minister in? I am from Hendersonville (about 30 miles west of Asheville) and that is where I was ordained and started my ministry. Oddly enough, I now live in Bellevue Washington, which has no association with Bellevue Baptist

 

[Wolfeman]

I don't think anyone was doing that. Wolf asked for my credentials, so I gave them. And considering we were having a conversation about denominations I think the credentials that wolf talked about in his post were relevant.

I removed my post where I asked who you were and your position within the SBC. I felt it was too contentions and had the possibility of inflaming a discussion that already had misunderstandings. And I believe his post was directed at me based on disagreements he and I have had in the past over the posting of credentials to bolster opinions.

 

[ChristGuard]

I removed my post where I asked who you were and your position within the SBC. I felt it was too contentions and had the possibility of inflaming a discussion that already had misunderstandings. And I believe his post was directed at me based on disagreements he and I have had in the past over the posting of credentials to bolster opinions.

Oh, haha, I was not offended by that post in the least, I took it seriously at face value. You and I are from the South where people don't often throw around the word "Pastor". But I now live in Seattle Washington where everyone thinks they are qualified to speak as pastors. I would have asked you the same questions should our roles have been reversed