Downing bosses faster

I'm carrying rare recipies in both Enchanting and Tailoring which would be a loss of assets to the guild. Otherwise it is a good idea. I wouldn't mind farming mats on Bannard to make the drums for our LWs to make and use them

(ie...Executioner Enchant for the Tanks - Which every raider tank should have, Whitemend and Spellstrike patterns in Tailoring)
 
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I am considering dropping tailoring for JC, grind JC up till I can make a few stacks of the BoP JC gems (for all my future upgrades) then drop JC and grind LW. Then when the sunfire robe pattern drops I will drop Enchanting and re-level tailoring for that. Then if I get some phatty rings (like 2x RoAK), drop tailoring long enough to enchant the rings then re-level tailoring.

Yeah, someone like Aves should be an exception as those patterns are too important, gotta keep one active player with them available.
 
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CGamer said:
Consider also this point also 25 man raids will continue into WotLK, Blizzard with the new 2.4 patch has put a lot of emphasis on haste, whether that will hold true for the expansion remains to be seen. But, currently haste is the new BIG thing with Blizz...here's a real life example...take Gnimish

He has the spell haste offhand from badges plus Icy Veins...now factor in an average ping for me in Kara around 600 low - 900 high...so for simplicity sake 750 average.
Gnimish has roughly 900 spell damage buffed w/ about 9% hit and he's specced 0/43/18 Fire mainly with Icy Veins. Without any haste except from his offhand I can easily push over 600 dps on a single target now take those same stats and add Icy Veins to that mix which is a 20% casting speed increase for 20 seconds I can easily do 800dps which is massive for me personally factoring in my lag & intermittent delays because of dial-up is HUGE.

Now take those same factors with an 80% increase for 30 seconds I could easily do well over 1k dps.

Okay now back to the 25 man raid situation take one person in each 5man DPS group with Drums who has an average 5 group sustained rating of 800 dps boost it for 30 seconds to 1k dps.

Now how does that play in a 5 minute boss fight...
No Haste
800x60(seconds) = 24000 a minute x 5(min) = 120000 damage over 5 minute per group.

Compare to with Haste
Haste
1000x60(secs) = 60000 a minute which in a 5 minute fight you can use Drums twice.

Then it's back to 800x60 = 24000 x 4 min = 96000 + 60000(1 minute at 1k dps) = 156000 in 5 min vs. 120000(no haste) so effectively 1 minute of haste correalates into 36000 damage.

So in summation how many fight have you been in where that little extra boost on a 2% Boss where we wiped would have resulted in a BiG WIN!!

Wooootttt!!!
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How does Mana use work into your equations?

I haven't looked at healing haste gear to be an authority on the matter but what is given up to reitemize for haste? Will we be giving up +dmg, +healing, +mana regen, +crit, +to hit and thats on gear.

Regardless, just looking at haste buffs like drums, heroism etc...

If in your first example, you assume in 5 minutes you are OOM, then with haste you'll OOM faster, maybe you'll simply do the same amount of damage, just in a shorter period of time. So over 5 minutes you really only do the same amount of damage \ healing because being OOM at 4 minutes = 1 minute of zero to minimal output.

Mind you haste doesn't affect classes relying on energy \ rage as much. Haste increases attack speed of rogues and hunters. For rogues specifically, for example, 30% haste rating on a 1 attack per second weapon would be 60 attacks per minute x 1.3 = 78 attacks per minute. This does not affect the DPS of their special attacks, which is based on energy regeneration. Which I can not find anything to confirm or deny whether or not haste affects that.

So in the long term, non-mana classes are definatly going to see an increase in damage done over the same period of time (ie 5 minutes) then mana users while mana users will see a noticable difference in damage done in a shorter period of time as they will go oom quicker while their total damage output over the same amount of time will be essentially equal.
 
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Consider a fight that lasts 5minutes, every dps caster class has a few options for mana regen.

Potions, Shadowfiend, Evocation, Lifetap, Innervate?(no idea about boomkin).

Pop Potion 1 when you are at the 1800-3000 mana loss for a full refill, that's 2 potions on a 5minute kill fight, save Shadowfiend for the last "expected" 1 minute of the fight or if you think the fight is longer then 5 minute use it first then the potions and Shadowfiend will likely be off CD. Spell Haste is ideal for Priests and Locks ideally as they have shorter or no CD's on their mana regen whereas a mage has a 9 minute CD on Evocation but with the added bonus of VT from a SP there shouldn't be a big issue with casters going out of mana in a long fight unless it's a mage, however if they make proper use of their mana regen abilities the downside should be minimal if any.

It would come down to proper group placement as well to maximize the benefits of drums.
 
Although melee haste would boost some tankadin melee damage it would really be ineffective as it would speed up the attack of 1hand 41dps weapon. With seal procs a flat proc per minute and other tankadin abilities instant cast spells, a tankadin would see next to no performance or threat boost for spell haste. I assume warrior and druid tanks would see a better return on the investment with melee haste.
 
Goodwone said:
Indy

not gonna drop my herbalism/flasking. flasks/pots/elixirs = success too (:
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you can make flasks just fine w/o herbalism.. buy mats from AH, guildies, or have an alt pick flowers ;-) But it is not me saying all raiders should be 350, its the min/max progression guilds. They would not allow any raider with a gathering skill I can guarantee that.

It is all about priorities...If one of your main desires was to progress through raid content at the most efficient pace possible then you would gladly drop a trade skill for it wouldn't you? Obviously that is not the main desire of many guildies so that would never be required in Redeemed. (and I mean that in a nice way) Now a requirement for the title of "raider" perhaps, but not to be in the guild and go on raids.
 
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Plankeye said:
Although melee haste would boost some tankadin melee damage it would really be ineffective as it would speed up the attack of 1hand 41dps weapon. With seal procs a flat proc per minute and other tankadin abilities instant cast spells, a tankadin would see next to no performance or threat boost for spell haste. I assume warrior and druid tanks would see a better return on the investment with melee haste.
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Also I am not sure a MT can afford even the 1 GCD to cast their drums on the big fights can they?
 
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Running the numbers, there appears to be a direct correlation between haste and an increase in DPS. ie....a 10% increase in haste = 10% increase in DPS.

This of course doesn't not take into consideration non-numerical data such as reaction times and times required to be out of combat to do something else (move out of a damage aura, cleanse, bandage, etc) or how itemization affects things. What do you have to give up to get haste.

Numerically, it appears that 15.7 haste = 1% haste based on 50% requiring a rating of 785.

Numerically, it appears that even with one source of cooldown mana regen, the likelyhood of going OOM at an inopportune time in the fight is not affected assuming a significant portion of the raid DPS has similiar haste rating. The more varied the DPS haste ratings are, the more likely with the higher of your own rating of going OOM at an inopportune time is greatly increased if you have only one source of cooldown mana regen (that is potions, innervates etc).

Assuming damage output from the encounter does not change with the overall haste rating of your party, haste ratings for healers is not affected in the same way for the same effect. If the damage taken by a tank is 10,000 dps, then healers need to heal said tank for 10,000 hps. If the healing core is already adequate, haste rating will benefit mana regen more then amount healed. Because if you can heal that 10,000 now with zero haste, having 10% haste doesn't change this, it does get you regening mana faster in your mana regen model. Which is an interesting concept in that healing classes dependant on spirit for mana regen can get out of the 5 second rule quicker. Is it signifiant, it could equate to an extra heal or two every minute. I haven't run the numbers for healing yet myself, I can't wrap my head around the variables yet.

The question then becomes:

  • Would we want to increase haste rating by a predictable amount (ie...drums)?
  • Require a set amount per raider? And if so, at what cost? Haste on items takes itemization away from other area's and that will skew numbers. If getting 10% more haste = 10% less +damage you have gained nothing.
  • Is it enough to have one set of drums per group for extra boosts through out the fight?
  • How would one strategize the use of heroism, powerinfusion, icy veins through out the raid?
  • Even if the raid leaders set a goal of: Two groups under the affects of haste per minute, then you've increased overall DPS over what we have now.
 
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ewoksrule said:
I am considering dropping tailoring for JC, grind JC up till I can make a few stacks of the BoP JC gems (for all my future upgrades) then drop JC and grind LW. Then when the sunfire robe pattern drops I will drop Enchanting and re-level tailoring for that. Then if I get some phatty rings (like 2x RoAK), drop tailoring long enough to enchant the rings then re-level tailoring.

Yeah, someone like Aves should be an exception as those patterns are too important, gotta keep one active player with them available.
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Whoa wish I had that much time to play!
 
Aves I saw a post on ElitestJerks with some data similar to yours but the graph was not a straight line of 1dmg=1 haste. It was a small curve with the more +dmg a player had, the more haste was worth. I think they said for shadow priest that pre +1350shadow ...1haste was worth <1dmg, and around +1350 it became 1=1, and after +1400 it became 1haste worth>1dmg. There seems to be sweet spots for each class/spec.

Would it make sense to figure out which specific players would benefit the most from the haste and group them together with the drums vs an even spreading out?

Oh and Razilena, I only wish I had that much time to play, I dream up doing all that tradeskilling before I go to bed at night, but in reality I am probably too lazy in game to go to all that work LOL
 
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I know that relationship isn't 1 to 1 but I don't know what the value of the contributing factors are to include them. Sometimes its enough to know that it isn't 1 to 1. But is the difference substantial enough to actually have to rework the conlusion?

How many casters do we have that have over 1350 damage? If most are 1,000 to 1,200 can we say its 0.98 (0.95) haste to 1 dmg?

There are other contibuting factors as well. For example, you can have +1200 damage and 30% haste and be the theoretical number 1 dpser in the raid but if you don't jump in the water on Lurkers spout, your stats are useless. A dead dps'ers (or healers) output is zero, no matter how you cut it.
 
ewoksrule said:
...Oh and Razilena, I only wish I had that much time to play, I dream up doing all that tradeskilling before I go to bed at night, but in reality I am probably too lazy in game to go to all that work LOL
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Wat robes would you wear in the Shadoweave Set's place?

Do you already have t5? If I remember correctly, that is the next step up from Shadoweave.
 
ewoksrule said:
I am considering dropping tailoring for JC, grind JC up till I can make a few stacks of the BoP JC gems (for all my future upgrades) then drop JC and grind LW. Then when the sunfire robe pattern drops I will drop Enchanting and re-level tailoring for that. Then if I get some phatty rings (like 2x RoAK), drop tailoring long enough to enchant the rings then re-level tailoring.

Yeah, someone like Aves should be an exception as those patterns are too important, gotta keep one active player with them available.
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Well you see here is where the bump in the road comes up... The sunfire robe is and epic tailoring pattern and your most likely not gonna get a chance to roll on it if your gonna drop it when your done with tailoring... same for the instance recipies for enchanting and so on.. The people who get to go for those are ones who are gonna keep them.... that way the guild can benifit from them... Especially if they are not BOP ( granted the robe patter is). Its not fair to all the other people with professions if they go to these instances and have to compete with some one who picks up a profession one week and a month down the road drops it
 
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no bump in the road, this robe is the only one that requires you to be tailor to wear it so there is no dropping tailor once i get it. If i need to enchant 2x RoAKs i would only drop tailoring for a day and have it back in time for the next raid.

I am talking about dropping tradeskills in order to maximize the help i give the raid team, not dropping items.
 
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The Shadoweave set requires you to be a Shadoweave Tailor in order for you to wear them. What do you plan on replacing the shoulders and gloves with?
 
Also, if I remember correctly, you have to be a JCer to make the epic, BOP-nontradable gems. So if you make them and then save them for your Robe, but keep enchanting, how will you put the gems in the slot. I thought only JCers could use them...

/brain overload

This is epicly confusing and I think it is not worth the headaches...

But I don't play anymore.
 
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