Does "Destination" matter?

ChristGuard said:
Why can it no be that: Christ died so that all men everywhere could have salvation. Christ did not die so that all men everywhere would have salvation.?
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I have to agree with ChristGuard here. The Greek does say "all" or "every." Universalism states that all are saved, regardless of their choices. Thus, Jesus' sacrifice paid for the sins of all, Muslim, Jew, Hindu and even atheists. Rather, I would suggest that the free gift of grace has been offered to all people, but they have to accept Jesus to receive that gift. I use a similar analogy as ChristGuard except I use a ticket rather than money (because of the other values which are ascribed to money) as an analogy to grace.

Jesus has purchased a ticket (grace) for you. Do you accept the ticket and redeem it for entry, or do you reject the ticket.
 
Personally I like the pardon analogy.

In the history of the US, several men have been offered pardons for their crimes. If accepted these men would be free. However they refused them and paid for their crimes.

Christ paid for the sins of all men on the Cross. Not just the elect or the chosen. We are all offered the gift of this pardon. We must make the choice to accept or reject it. If we reject it, even tho our sins are already paid for, we must pay for our sins.
 
If Jesus paid for all sins of all people then God could not condemn them to hell. Their sins were paid for. Justification is a legal stance that whether or not the perpetrator accepts the judgement from the Judge the sentence still stands. So in this interpretation you are providing, the Judge says "Your sins are paid for" and the perp says "No way! I don't care" it wouldn't matter... the Judge can't legally prosecute.

Either the sins are paid for ALL (universal salvation) or they are paid for to all who believe (limited atonement).

Edit: It's not a pardon. A pardon is a pass. The debt is paid for and the time has been served by Christ. No pardon.

Why can it no be that: Christ died so that all men everywhere could have salvation. Christ did not die so that all men everywhere would have salvation.?
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This sounds like a God who tried attempting to save everyone, but couldn't pull it off because it required man to step up. This doesn't describe a Sovereign God or a "Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him." His hands are tied unless we do something. This is a subtle, yet similar, version of all the world religions in that we must reach up to God by taking his hand, letting go of all pain (Budda), following his commands (Islam), or obeying the commandments (Judaism). If you don't do X then you won't get Y. I think and I think we are all close on this that what I feel like the Bible says is , "You can't do X" "You can't conjure up faith on your own or even seek me of your own smartness, cleverness or merit. You are really really dead in your sin. " and God seeks us out in this. God pursues us and finds us and grabs a hold of us.

We can all agree that faith is a requirement of salvation. I think we are on the same page there from reading this thread. We must believe in Jesus otherwise we are eternally damned. I think if I understand everyone where we differ is in "how" this faith is imparted. Honestly it won't get solved here in this thread. This debate has been going on for thousands of years and good, well meaning, believers on both side of their viewpoints believe them very strongly.
 
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Lloren man, I have to admit, it really sounds like you are purposefully mis-interpreting what everyone is saying, and it is very frustrating.
 
ChristGuard said:
Lloren man, I have to admit, it really sounds like you are purposefully mis-interpreting what everyone is saying, and it is very frustrating.
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I'm sorry. I don't intend to misquote people. What have I misinterpreted?
 
ChristGuard said:
Lloren man, I have to admit, it really sounds like you are purposefully mis-interpreting what everyone is saying, and it is very frustrating.
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Whether he is or not, I love the discussions on these forums a wish I could articulate my thoughts half as good as others.;)
 
ewoksrule said:
Once again we have another verse where the word "all" simply cannot mean "all men , everywhere" unless we want to spout the heresy of Universalism.
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I believe you misunderstand my point. By "draw" I am not referring to salvation itself (nor do I believe the text is). The point had been made that man is incapable of reaching out to God in His sinful state (total depravity) and requires God to first draw him. It was inferred that God only draws the elect and enables them to "choose" life. I was merely pointing out the possibility that God might "draw" all men thus enabling them all to make a choice they could never have made in their totally depraved state. Not that all would actually choose life or that they would have life forced upon them (i.e. Universalism).

Not saying that is necessarily how it is. Just throwing out the possibility.
 
Patriot said:
I believe you misunderstand my point. By "draw" I am not referring to salvation itself (nor do I believe the text is). The point had been made that man is incapable of reaching out to God in His sinful state (total depravity) and requires God to first draw him. It was inferred that God only draws the elect and enables them to "choose" life. I was merely pointing out the possibility that God might "draw" all men thus enabling them all to make a choice they could never have made in their totally depraved state. Not that all would actually choose life or that they would have life forced upon them (i.e. Universalism).

Not saying that is necessarily how it is. Just throwing out the possibility.
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I hear what you are saying but I still feel that if God is all powerful and if He is drawing anything He will absolutely get it. If He draws all men He gets all men, there is no way anyone can resist. This is referring to the elect, out of all nations, both gentile and Jew. He will draw them and He will get every last one of them, as they were destined before the beginning of time.
 
ewoksrule said:
I hear what you are saying but I still feel that if God is all powerful and if He is drawing anything He will absolutely get it. If He draws all men He gets all men, there is no way anyone can resist. This is referring to the elect, out of all nations, both gentile and Jew. He will draw them and He will get every last one of them, as they were destined before the beginning of time.
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+1

Romans 8:28-30
New International Version (NIV)
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[a] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
 
ewoksrule said:
I hear what you are saying but I still feel that if God is all powerful and if He is drawing anything He will absolutely get it. If He draws all men He gets all men, there is no way anyone can resist. This is referring to the elect, out of all nations, both gentile and Jew. He will draw them and He will get every last one of them, as they were destined before the beginning of time.
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This essentially limits God in another form. It essentially says that God is incapable of drawing without limiting the effect. Almost as if God is incapable of controlling His power. I agree that if God wants to draw something to get it there is nothing to stop Him, but I also believe one of the fruits of the Spirit is self-control which means it reflects an aspect of God's character.
 
The atonement is sufficient for all, but only efficient for those who accept the free gift of God's grace (the elect).
 
I am wondering, for those of you who believe only in Pre-Destination, do you believe God is fully in control always, or only in the case of salvation?
 
Mordos said:
God is fully in control always
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Yes, and then we define control. I fall on Romans 8. God allows all things to happen. The fall. Sin. He is not the cause of these things, but He is in control of all things. There was a post earlier I think about if God does this doesn't it limit God's ability?? Or something like that. There are things God can not do. He can't do them. God can't sin. God can't contradict His Word. So when His Word says "He works all things..." we can know He is working and in control of all situations and circumstances even though we can't see the finality or outcome.

"People ask me, 'Why pray if God is sovereign?' I respond, 'Why pray if he's not?'" - Michael Horton
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Lloren said:
There was a post earlier I think about if God does this doesn't it limit God's ability?? Or something like that. There are things God can not do. He can't do them. God can't sin. God can't contradict His Word.
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If you are referring to my post then you may want to reread it. It had nothing to do with this at all.
 
If man has no choice in salvation did he have to choose to sin and fall? If he had a choice to sin and fall, why does he not have to make a choice for salvation?
 
I think Lloren makes a valid point about control. Dos, and others who are 5 pointers, do you think God is completely in control of everything we do, like he is guiding my fingers right now as I type, thinking for me, moving me like a puppet?
 
Patriot said:
This essentially limits God in another form. It essentially says that God is incapable of drawing without limiting the effect. Almost as if God is incapable of controlling His power. I agree that if God wants to draw something to get it there is nothing to stop Him, but I also believe one of the fruits of the Spirit is self-control which means it reflects an aspect of God's character.
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Ok, I went back and found it. Sorry for my lazy reference earlier.

I think (my feeling) is it's the same issue as discussed above. God can't contradict Himself. So if you believe that God's calling is combined with justification and sanctification then there is no limitation. That would be calling God's character into question of sorts. I feel Romans 9 puts a powerful perspective on God's choices:

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
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edit: 4001! that's over 4000!
 
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