DKP (Please read everyone) -guild tlak-

Yokie

Yokie

New Member
Hello all.

Well i'd like to bring up the topic of DKP. Now i dont know if this has come up before but i'd like to say how i feel about this.

I was wondering if the system could possibly be talked about being modified. I just personally feel that the dkp system sorta favors hording the points. If you keep all your points then basically when the "great" item drops and a lot of people want to take a snap at it...there is no way anyone can compete if you have 300 dkp and they only have like 110. Since all the priority goes to the person with the highest dkp. Plus if another item drops that anyone else would like they could still win it.

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I just feel it would be fair if lets say the people that have the dkp for the item that drops, they PM the raid leader and those people Roll for the drop. The winner of the roll gets the item and their dkp subtracted. It plays it fair for everyone thats in the raid rather than worrying about whoever has the highest dkp will automatically get the item. Everyone will have a chance to get Geared evenly and we can grow faster.
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If you're possibly thinking about people rolling and leaving then maybe that might mean getting rid of the free 50 dkp when you join the first raid. I personally am willing to give up the 50 free dkp if the DKP system changes to the idea i gave in. Its not just becuase i'm the lowest on the dkp that i'm saying this. Its just i feel it will play fair to everyone that would like an item that drops.

As a guild hopefully we can all talk about this and how we feel.


-Yokie ^_^ :)


P.S. on a side note. I am thinking of putting together a Static Farming Party for the guild so we can do runs during the week for items for the guild. BOEs, Enchants, Plans, Farm Rep. Its fun playing with you guys.
 
"we'll be geared evenly and not have like 7 people geared for BWL but more as the guild evenly geared and able to start"

That was one thing Humina said that i totally agree with.
 
Many hours of research was put into the DKP method we are currently using. It has been heralded by countless raiders as the best system for casual raiders and to avoid DKP inflation.

While the random roll sounds fair, in the end it has many disadvantages. The biggest one is that you cannot plan for what you want. You are always stuck with lady luck. With zero-sum you can effectively plan out what you want and when you will get it (assuming it drops) You can always see who is where in the balance, and who might have a shot at it before you. This can help you make better decisions on which items to go for in which order. Where the random method, gives you sporadic gear without a solid way to plan the order.

Here is an interesting read on what you are proposing vs the current system (zero-sum dkp method)
http://padwen.tripod.com/

here is the conclusion (for those who don't want to read the article.)
What is obvious to me from these simulation results is that loot distribution under a zero-sum DKP system results in a much more even distribution of loot. Everyone gets loot in the DKP simulation, and everyone had to make about the same effort (measured by attendance) per loot.

In the random simulations several casual (i.e. low attendance) raiders got nothing, and the effort required per loot had a much wider variation. With random some got loot every 10 raids or less, others every 40 raids or more. In both simulations the hardcore raiders wound up with more total loot, but it is possible in the random systems for an individual who attended 400 raids to wind up with less loot then someone who attended 100 raids.
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I vote we stick with a system that spreads the loot out evenly and gives the advantage to the casual raider. Random rolls is great for a PUG but it will hurt Team Eternity in that some will have lots of epics and some will have none months down the road.

Just look at the DKP charts and you will see how even the spread is by class. Its amazing how even the loot is spread right now. I don't think we can do better then what we are currently doing, personally.
 
An amazing thing I noticed on the charts is that with random rolls a raider with 500 raids can still be at the same level of Uberness as one who only did 100 raids. With zero-sum that same raider at 500 raids can only be touched by a raider with 400.

Thats a huge difference and a major fault of random rolls.
 
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I'm not saying random roll for everyone in the group. But the raid leaders always anounce what class should basically roll for that item becuase they know who it might benefit the most.


I was saying that people with the dkp in that class that want the item will let the raid leader know they want that item so lets say.
Bracers of Might drop

3 - 6 Warriors want it. Those 3 will roll for it and the winner will use their DKP for that item. Its so that the classes get evenly geared.
We want to be able to do BWL quicker and this way we can evenly be geared and do the harder bosses better.
 
If what you are looking for is the team to grow faster, then the real changes that need to be made are ones based on Participation. Make it so no one can get an epic untill they have attended 3 raids. Also, no one can get loot unless they have over 50% attendance. This will ensure that the people who really show up get the loot, therefore making the team stronger.

Of course this is not fair to the casual raider, and being a "casual guild" we might not want to make those changes. heheh
 
But the raid leaders always anounce what class should basically roll for that item
Click to expand...

Well there is no need for that, if prophecy drops you can count that only priests get a shot.

I do not think you read the link I posted. It clearly shows that with the random roll method there is NOT an even distribution. It actually allows for some people to have tons of epics and some to have none. With zero-sum you have the most even distribution possible.

If you truly want a even spread of loot, then welcome to our system, it is the best for that. Just look at the priest summary and you will see what I mean. All of our priests have about the same # of epics when compared to attendance. Only a couple have less and they have a lot of DKP so they can quickly catch up.
 
Pull up the DKP and filter by priest, then click on "DKP spent" look how even the spending has been. Everyone is right there with each other. Look at the DKP earned and spent and tell me if it is possible to have any better distribution then you guys have so far.
 
Some people choose to "save up" DKP for the items they want most, and while I think some people have the right idea of trying to save their DKP to roll for the rarest drops when they do, I also think that they unintentionally hurt the raid in doing so by not being as geared as they could be for the next run. I think its important that perhaps we push the raid leaders to "enforce" a rule that if you don't have a class item that drops and you have the DKP for it you must take it...not allowing that person to pass to get a different item. And in turn this could gear people as quickly as possible for the betterment of the raid group, as well as even out the other epic items that others want a chance to roll on that have that epic gear. Just a thought on how to help.

Zero-sum is the most efficient DKP method of distributing loot, no bones about it. Perhaps an attendance rule of somesort should go into effect.. and perhaps punishments for no shows are no rolls on epics for a run??
 
Not to keep spamming this topic, but after spending many hours in MC under 3 different systems, I found that Zero-Sum was just the most fair. I was excited beyond excitement when I found out that Team Eternity will be using Zero-sum. I had so many bad experiences in random roll and bidding methods in MC.

Spend a few more weeks in raids with us and then come back to this topic. I guarantee you that you will see how fair and even it is. The only problem is that it is so even that many newcomers get an epic on their first visit and then never return to use it.
 
Mirakle,

I think the problem that priest have, hunters too, is that our big bad drop Benediction. We ALL want it.

This will cause dkp inflation at times. It will not in our runs.

Avesther and I both have Benediction. When we start dropping Rag then the rest of the priest will get it. It is very hard as a priest to wait for this drop.

I can tell you, from personal experience, that the zero sum works out fine in the end.

I saved up all my dkp, even passing on the T2 helm at one point, to get Benediction. It was my one goal. I got benediction after 6 months of raiding. Then I did not get anything for like two months. then I got like the next 5 drops. The dkp thing works. We just need to let it work.

Now, I will say that as a Raid leader, we will need to look at a dkp cap in the future. I know most people who do major raiding establish a cap on dkp.

all that said, Yokie, it will all work out. You have to trust the system.
 
perhaps we push the raid leaders to "enforce" a rule that if you don't have a class item that drops and you have the DKP for it you must take it
Click to expand...

The problem here is that, for example, my blue bracers are the best blue in the game and my belt is the worst blue in the game. When purple bracers drop if I am forced to get them it might be many raids before I can get the belt. This was a bad use of DKP as it barely did much, where if I had waited for the belt I made a big difference.

We have to trust the individual that they are making wise decisions in passing on items. With zero-sum we can plan it all out, pass here, bid here, taking into account our blues and what needs to be upgraded first.
 
Indeed, I LOVE the system we have in place!

Yeah, some people hoard their dkp, but that's not a problem! Every time they pass on a high-end item, somebody else gets it. And if you are ONLY going for that ultra-rare drop, then in order to have a shot, you're going to have to pass on some of the other stuff.

It's not a rare drop, but in our raids, the eye of shadow is VERY rare indeed (as we've only downed Domo once). Quantam has been saving his dkp for uber damage gear, and had the first shot. While I would have liked to get the EoS, I've walked away with 4 pieces of prophecy that he passed on to have the first shot at the eye.

I guess it can seem unfair when a person wins two items in a row, but you have to consider that in order to do that, they must have passed on many items previously.

I personally find the statistical argument more compelling than testemony, but maybe that's because I'm a physicist. In short, the ONLY way to build up a whole lot of dkp is to raid a ton for no personal benefit. If you want that ultra-rare drop, you too will have to raid a ton and let others take loot you could have used.
 
I believe that the dkp system is doing ok, my experience has been with redeemed while on raids is that people have been really fair especially the hunters in the grp, if they already have a item that has dropped then they will say no i don't want it and the same goes with me, so as far as i can tell the dkp system is a good system when everyone is honest and helpful to other guildies, for a random roll doesn't mean u could win a item either even if u wanted it and so i think we all have to do raids more often to get the stuff we want.
 
ewoksrule said:
The problem here is that, for example, my blue bracers are the best blue in the game and my belt is the worst blue in the game. When purple bracers drop if I am forced to get them it might be many raids before I can get the belt. This was a bad use of DKP as it barely did much, where if I had waited for the belt I made a big difference.

We have to trust the individual that they are making wise decisions in passing on items. With zero-sum we can plan it all out, pass here, bid here, taking into account our blues and what needs to be upgraded first.
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I quite agree. If nobody bids on an item because they're all saving for that l33t weapon, then there's a problem (not to mention, those in attendance get no dkp for the drop). But as long as SOMEBODY gets the item, it's still helping the raid just as much.

As others have said, the only fault of the system is that sometimes newcomers never come back... but at the same time, it's a huge rush for a newbie like me to get their first epic on their first run to MC! In my case, I even got it before I hit 60 -- I was grinding all the next day so I could wear it to our Saturday run. But even that makes sense. If we, as a casual guild, can't fill the raid with regulars -- the epics that never come back are essentially payment for filling the empty spots. Until we have enough that we can fill a 40-man raid with the same 50-60 people every night, it's only fair that some of our stand-ins get gear too.
 
But as long as SOMEBODY gets the item, it's still helping the raid just as much.
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Exactly...

My Horde guild made a rule that if you pass on a item and it gets DE'ed, then you will never get a shot at that item again.

As long as someone takes it, the raid gets DKP and loot, but if you pass and we have to shard it, you have just passed for life on that item. This made people have to reconsider passing up gear to horde for uber weapons.
 
I really like the DKP system that we have right now. Since I had loads of free time and was VERY anti-social over the summer, I decided to raid every week with Team Eternity until I had to go back to college and being social and doing homework, projects, meetings, etc. Over those 3 months that I spent raiding using the Zero Sum system, I felt it was a really good way of spreading out loot.

For the warriors, FJ and Gnome were the ones that were geared up the most in the beginning since they had run MC with another guild. Since they had most of their gear, it allowed for us newer tanks to gear up as well. And the system we have now really lets those that commit themselves to raiding every week with Team Eternity to get geared up first as opposed to random rolling and having people that show up maybe once a month to get an item that the committed raiders want.

To me, attendance is a real big thing. Basically if you can't commit then you'll get a purple here and there but not as much as those that are really committed. The gear that Meli has shows how committed I was in raiding with you guys over the summer (even withstanding mom/grandma agro for at least an hour each week cuz I'd be up "so late"). But now that I'm back at school and have other committments, I cannot attend as regularly as I used to. If I can make it by chance one night and a purple drops that I want as well as another warrior who can make it there every week, I'd gladly pass on it so that that person can get more geared than me. But that's just me. I know that the mages do something along those lines. If something drops for their class, they discuss who deserves it in their class channel and then inform the raid leaders of who they have decided should get it, instead of going by dkp. I really like what they do but (this is not pointed at ANYONE) not every person is that willing to pass up a "pretty purple."
 
Indeed -- sometimes I wish we priests could copy the mages... but then I look back at how our drops are distributed and it's uncannily fair. With the exception of Avesther and Quantam (who are either fully geared, or going for a totally different type of gear) all the regular priests have almost exactly the same amount of dkp. Every once in a while, one of us will drop down further when we pick up something that's dropped before, but a few raids later, we're all cycling through again. I should note that this also gives me incentive to attend every raid as missing a raid means I WILL get passed by a few priests and essentially skip a turn. I'd raid with you even without the loot, but the whole game is set up to reward effort and raiding is nothing different.

To be honest, I'd feel that it was UNFAIR if Avesther didn't get first pick of any sweet drops -- he spends so much time and energy leading us through the instance with much less tangible reward!
 
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