Dawn of War 2 beta

I've only played one full game with ToJ members, but I'd like to play another; however, I doubt I'll be purchasing the game for three reasons:
  1. It doesn't run very well on my computer. I play games on a Dell E1705 with a GeForce Go 7800. I can play Team Fortress 2 and Left 4 Dead at a decent framerate and image quality, but I have to use the Low graphics present in DoW2.
  2. I already own Starcraft and I like it better. DoW2 feels like it does not and could not offer the same depth of gameplay that has kept Starcraft in play for over 10 years. Since DoW2 eliminates building and resource gathering, it feels like "Real-time Strategy Lite." I might pay $20-$30 for DoW2, but I'm assuming it will carry a much heftier price tag (probably $50) on release.
  3. I already have enough games to play. It's going to take something that's both amazing and popular with other Tribe of Judah members to pull me away from the games I already own and play, especially considering the size of the backlog of Playstation 2 and DS games in my play queue.
Again, it's a fun, solid game, but I don't see paying $50 for this game, especially while unemployed. If I was rich enough that $50 was a trifle, I might buy it just to play another RTS game with ToJ members, but I think it will be many years before paying $50 for a computer game doesn't sting.

I think DoW2 will rekindle interest in the RTS genre in a way that Red Alert 3 failed to, but it will still be a shadow of the resurgence that will very likely follow the release of Starcraft 2.
 
Tek7 said:
Since DoW2 eliminates building and resource gathering
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That is not true.

Eliminate building other stationary structures, yes. But you still build units. And the units are more valuable from the start. There is no such thing as fodder in this RTS game.

And for resource gathering... well, the whole multiplayer game is about fighting over resources so that you can gather them. So I would argue it emphasizes the importance of resource gathering than StarCraft ever could. Your requisition points and power points are the resources, and you have to fight over them and hold onto them to build more powerful units and climb your tech tree. In order to do that, you have to exercise superior troop movements/placement and tactics. The economy race and tactical superiority are tied to the hip in this game.

Since your reference is StarCraft, imagine if those crystals and gas are only on three points in the middle of the map, and the players' bases are in the corners. Frankly, I think that would make StarCraft actually interesting again.

Tek7 said:
but it will still be a shadow of the resurgence that will very likely follow the release of Starcraft 2.
Click to expand...
I also disagree with this prediction, but let me explain where I am coming from.

What is StarCraft 2 offering in multiplayer that has significantly changed from StarCraft? All I can see is a graphics update. Yay! 3D models!

Now sure, a few units swap stats here and there, and I am sure the fans will recreate different build orders and obsess over the minutia, but that is what hardcore fans do, and they are already on board regardless.

So have they made it more casual to court a larger audience? No, of course not. Nothing in their control scheme or UI has been made significantly easier. And the lack of changes means the hardcore StarCraft players will have the advantage on day one on battle.net. I don't think that will be a welcoming experience to a newbie.

Now what about RTS players that were bored with Brood War in one year after its release? People like me, in other words. Have they fundamentally changed the approach of combat? Have they introduced a new faction? Have they dramatically changed the three current factions play style? Have they introduced a new, innovative strategic paradigm that will shake the RTS industry and inspire a bunch of copycats as competition? No.

Blizzard is not out to get new players or resurge anything. They got the nation of South Korea for crying out loud. Who needs more players when you can continue nurturing the crazy money-making StarCraft sports scene in Korea?



Now I do not believe DoWII is perfect. In fact, I plan to buy all three StarCraft 2 chapters (since I am in it for their single-player story and gameplay tweaks in the campaign). I also think still that DoWI:Soulstorm provides more depth at this point in the beta.

To me, the "lite" feel you are getting is due to a startling lack of different unit types and the units' prices in the game. I can safely say this being a DoWI fan. There are a lot of empty squares in the base building/unit upgrading UI, and I can think of a lot of units/upgrades from DoWI that can easily fit in there. And frankly, I am still perplexed why Relic chose to do this. Introduce more units, tweak the economy numbers, and things can become very explosive, very dynamic, very fast. That's easily fixable.
 
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Omega Amen said:
To me, the "lite" feel you are getting is due to a startling lack of different unit types and the units' prices in the game. I can safely say this being a DoWI fan. There are a lot of empty squares in the base building/unit upgrading UI, and I can think of a lot of units/upgrades from DoWI that can easily fit in there. And frankly, I am still perplexed why Relic chose to do this. Introduce more units, tweak the economy numbers, and things can become very explosive, very dynamic, very fast. That's easily fixable.
Click to expand...

I think (more rather hoping) that the lack of units/upgrades will be fixed with either DLC or expansions later. After all, adding another race will probably mean adding another unit or two to the previous races for ease of balancing.
Though as is, I have a hard enough time juggling around the units I do have... But that's just me. I do miss the Dark Reapers and Fire Dragons however.
 
Omega Amen said:
That is not true.

Eliminate building other stationary structures, yes. But you still build units. And the units are more valuable from the start. There is no such thing as fodder in this RTS game.
Click to expand...
Sorry, typo on my part. I meant to type "buildings," not "building."

And I played as Zerg, where I could make up for imperfect micro with solid macro. The whole, "every unit is precious" aspect of DoW2 is a negative for players like me where it's a positive for players who excel in micro.

Again, DoW2 is a terrific looking game. Aside from the odd crash, the game already looks polished in the beta phase. I just don't think DoW2 has the same level of depth and won't enjoy the same longevity as Starcraft. And if I already own SC, I'm unemployed, and I'm short on money, it doesn't make sense to spend $50 on a title that I won't enjoy as much as something I already own.

I can understand how some people would prefer DoW2 to Starcraft. I wish those people the best. I even hope to see a DoW2 chapter form before or shortly after the retail release of DoW2. I'm just explaining why I don't plan on buying the game until the price drops significantly.

All that being said, I still plan on playing it while it's in beta and I don't have to pay for it.

Omega Amen said:
What is StarCraft 2 offering in multiplayer that has significantly changed from StarCraft? All I can see is a graphics update. Yay! 3D models!

[...]

Have they fundamentally changed the approach of combat? Have they introduced a new faction? Have they dramatically changed the three current factions play style? Have they introduced a new, innovative strategic paradigm that will shake the RTS industry and inspire a bunch of copycats as competition? No.
Click to expand...
I don't know if any of that is as important as the fact that the title of their next RTS is "Starcraft" followed by a number greater than 1.
 
I think it is very interesting to see how to major companies of the RTS genre go about making these games and how it fits two ways of thinking. DoW II from the beta so far is everything I've ever wanted in an RTS. Even from the Westwood heydays I've always hated bases, simply because it took away from me being on the field fighting. When DoW I came along and introduced me to the idea of strategic points I was enthralled. I'm fairly certain I'm not the only one that thinks this way. No base to worry about the inevitable rush in online multiplayer, heavy emphasis on your units and their necessity for survival, use of cover (and its destruction), individual squad upgrades, etc. That's what I love.

Then there are people I know who absolutely MUST have those bases and that resource gathering or they simply will not play it. They love the macro with a dash of micro. They live for the rushing or turtling styles of play (something that DoW II pretty much eliminated). They love the massing of huge numbers of units then 'attack move' into another base, just for either the steamroll or epic battle that will ensue. Or they live for the stuff of 8 ling/toss/marine-medic rushes. That is where SCII will come in. SCII is, IMO, pretty much the ultimate traditional RTS redone Blizzard Style. Not to much changed, which keeps fans of the old school style happy and maybe reintroduce it to a younger generation but won't do much of anything for me (that said I'll still try to buy it if only because of the rock solid storytelling).

Also of note, there are two differences in takes on Balance. SC and probably SCII have hard counters for everything. X unit is countered by Y unit is countered by Z unit kind of thing. DoW II doesn't have much of that. Their balance is 'use any of this to counter any of this' (Ie: the myriad of equally sound methods of taking out suppression units).

I love SCII and DoWII comparisons when they focus on just what is different rather than which is actually better, because it shows two massively different ideas on what makes a Real Time Strategy game. Neither are better, it winds up boiling into personal preference.
 
While I agree DoW2 may not have that much depth, I love it's pacing more than CNC3. With your 2~5 squads on the front line and sentries at your base, you don't have to worry about early base rushes like in SC or Kane's Wrath where building the wrong structure means your build order now means nothing when the other guy has a stop watch near his monitor, ready to pounce. With DoW2, it... it's like TF2. It's accessible (after some matches), pretty, has plenty of explosions and guys launching into the air, and has a nice amount of tactical depth. Does TF2 have the same depth that CSS or COD4 have? No. Does that bother me? No. I honestly thought SC was poo. :p It seems so slow to me. DoW2 brings a fresh gameplay that I haven't experienced, and now that I have, I don't mind having an RTS-lite. And while RA3/SC2 is keeping in retro-like, I prefer this new style. :p Heck, I'm scared to even go on DoW1 online because I know I'll get stomped, but on this one, the on the fly tactics and small squads doesn't bog ya down with detail or worry about protecting 301408634 structures at your base. Fun game is fun.

/and winning 80% of my matches with Eldar doesn't hurt either...
 
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Tek7 said:
Sorry, typo on my part. I meant to type "buildings," not "building."
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I don't think that really changes my original rebuttal, to be honest.

Additional secondary buildings in traditional RTS games like StarCraft mainly provide upgrades to units. That functionality is shifted over to the units themselves in DoWII. In StarCraft, you click on the secondary building to enable an upgrade. In DoWII, you click on the unit portrait to enable an upgrade. Where is the loss of gameplay depth in this difference?
Tek7 said:
And I played as Zerg, where I could make up for imperfect micro with solid macro. The whole, "every unit is precious" aspect of DoW2 is a negative for players like me where it's a positive for players who excel in micro.
Click to expand...
That is fine, and I completely understand that. That is why I never addressed that in my original rebuttal. BTW, I am bad at both.
Tek7 said:
And if I already own SC, I'm unemployed, and I'm short on money, it doesn't make sense to spend $50 on a title that I won't enjoy as much as something I already own.
Click to expand...
Again, I completely understand that, and I would have never replied to your previous post if it solely was about your current financial situation and lack of interest in micro play.

But your previous post had one rather bold statement. You made a judgement on the game's quality and future based on one play session in its beta stage, citing a lack of "gameplay depth."

That is the reason why I replied to your post and challenged your reasoning. I am interested in your analysis of the game, especially after just one play session. That is my way of getting to know people.

I just hope you see that I was not harping on your current financial situation. I am worried that I gave that bad impression since you brought it up again in your reply. I am not very tactful sometimes.
Tek7 said:
I don't know if any of that is as important as the fact that the title of their next RTS is "Starcraft" followed by a number greater than 1.
Click to expand...
Actually, you are getting to heart of my point. The only significant difference is a number on the box. So how would that gather more long-lasting interest beyond the current StarCraft customer base? In my opinion, that just reinforces the status quo, which is no resurgence of long-lasting interest in the RTS genre.

And I do agree that DoWII will not last as long as StarCraft II, but that would have nothing to do with the quality/depth of those games. It won't last as long because Relic will have already made another RTS game and motivate their fans to move to it before Blizzard can. Longevity is only a result of their differing business models not their games.

I also see Elader has the same tastes as me (more fighting, less construction). BTW, Elader, I meant more unit types to choose from, not more units on the field at the moment. I don't want them to increase the number of squads you have to manage on the battlefield at the moment.
 
I don't think they'll do anything with the number of squads being fielded (at least I hope -I'm pretty happy with it atm). I know from my time as Eldar the support cannons could be merged into a single upgradeable unit easily allowing another unit or two to come in, etc. But I think any of that kind of thing will come in as DLC or expac to help balance with whatever new race has in terms of strengths (please please please Tau first expac, I'm sure it won't but it would be awesome).
 
OK played a couple games, this is HAWT! Love the graphics and the unit looks. Love the find cover mechanic. Love all the upgrades and its great that's its all about units and quick combat, not turtle-base-tower building
 
Dawn of War II uses Steam for Authentication, Big Balance Patch

A couple of news items just released:

First, Dawn of War II uses Steamworks for Game Authentication. Basically, if you buy Dawn of War II even in retail, you will get a Steam account.

Second, and far more interesting, a big balance patch was just released, and a lot of major changes have been. I am guessing completely new strategies have to be made now. Here's the link.

Here they are:
Current Change List

Increased the chances for melee sync-kills to occur.
Fixed an issue with all units gaining experience from kills. Only units that fight will gain experience. Heroes will still gain experience just by being near the fighting.
All infantry weapon damage reduced by 15% with the exception of anti-vehicle, sniper and artillery weapons.
All heroes health reduced by 10% to reflect global damage change.
Some melee units reduced in health by 10%.
Suppression units' damage at long range reduced, suppression against cover reduced a little.
melee_heavy damage to vehicle reduced to 0.5, from 1. Damage against building reduced to 0.5, from 1.
power_weapons_pvp damage to vehicle reduced to 0.15, from 0.25.
Plasma damage vs vehicles increased to .2 from .15
Flamer damage vs garrison increased to 3.5 from 2.5, vs heavy cover to 2.5 from 2.
Increased grenade damage modifier to garrison cover to 1.25 from 1.
Reduced grenade pvp damage modifier against generators to 1 from 1.5.
All vehicle deaths now generate heavy cover.
Melee special attacks no longer knockdown retreating units.
Increased uncapture time for requisition and power points to 15 seconds, from 10.
HQ health decreased to 10,000, from 15,000.
Requisition points are now updated to use a new system. Points are worth +10 upon capture, but this value now increases by +5 every 15 seconds up to a maximum of +35. When uncaptured, this value resets to +10.
Requisition points will no longer be reduced in resource rate in larger games.


Space Marines

Avatar and Carnifex are no longer instantly killed by drop pods.
Fixed an issue with space marine base turrets being able to rotate 360 degrees.


Tactical Squad

Missile Launcher reload time reduced to 6 seconds, from 8. Accuracy against large targets increased to 1, from 0.75. Damage reduced to 160, from 175.
Sergeant cost increased to 75/25 from 50/25.
Fixed an issue the with tactical marine sergeant having a shorter range than the rest of the squad which would cause him to run up to the enemy.
Plasma gun damage increased from 65 to 90.
Flamer damage increased from 12 to 14.
Tactical Marine HP increased from 300 to 350.
And They Shall Know No Fear damage reduction modifier reduced to 0.6, from 0.5. Knockback chance decreased to 50%, from 100%. Damage price increased to 1800, from 1200.


Dreadnought

Dreadnought assault cannon upgrade requisition cost increased to 100, from 45


Terminators

Terminator zeal cost reduced to 700, from 900.
Assault terminator zeal cost reduced to 700, from 900.


Scout Squad

Sniper rifle cost changed to 150/35 from 100/60, damage increased to 170 from 150.
Shotgun knockdown chance reduced to 15%, from 25%.
Infiltrate energy drain increased to 1.5/sec, from 1/sec.
Scout Sergeant detection radius set to 30.
Fixed a bug that was causing Frag Grenades to deal far less damage than intended.
Leader cost increased to 60/25 from 50/25
Fixed an issue with Scouts dealing more melee damage than they should have been.


Techmarine

Techmarine Heavy Bolter turret damage reduced to match the other turrets.


Assault Marines

Melta bomb fixed to affect Carnifex mobility.
Fixed an issue that caused Meltabombs to have a chance to miss their target.
Assault Marine Sergeant cost increased to 100/25 from 50/25
Assault Marine Sergeant health increased to 440, from 320.
Jump energy cost increased to 70, from 55.


Force Commander

Force commander teleporter pack armor req cost increased to 100.
Force commander 2 handed hammer special attack damage reduced to 30, from 50.
Force commander Flesh Over Steel stun duration reduced to 8 seconds, from 10.


Apothecary

Fixed an issue with the Heal ability not being able to target Terminators.
Apothecary Armor of Purity health increase reduced to 100.
Apothecary Armor of Purity heal cooldown reduction bonus reduced to 0.65, from 0.5.
Apothecary heal tuned to heal heroes more, heal over time effect reduced
Apothecary chainsword damage reduced to 33 from 38.
Apothecary Sanguine Chainsword damage reduced to 50, from 65.
Apothecary power axe damage reduced to 85, from 100.
Angels of death cost increased to 500 from 400, cooldown increased to 3 minutes from 1 minute.


Techmarine

Techmarine mine cost increased to 65 energy from 50.
Blessing of the Omnissiah recharge time increased to 150, from 50.


Predator

Predator Autocannon now has a 100% chance to generate cover when it hits the ground, up from 50%.


Eldar

Falcon and Fire Prism can now reverse.
Webway gate psychic might cost increased to 125 from 90.
Fixed an issue with the Fleet of Foot tool tip not saying that it causes a damage reduction.
Eldritch storm crater now generates light cover.


Guardians

Shuriken Catapult damage decreased to 12, from 14.
Warlock Leader cost increased to 65/15, from 50/15.


Howling Banshees

Banshee War Shout radius reduced to 8, from 15 and will no longer affect retreating units.
Banshee charge speed bonus reduced to 2 meters/s from 3 meters/s
Banshee Exarch leap damage reduced to 20 from 40.
Knockdown from Banshee leap removed.
Banshee Exarch gains knockdown on leap with Executioner upgrade.
Executioner special attack no longer affects allies.
Aspect of Banshee changed to provide Warshout and Exarch Executioner.
Exarch upgrade changed to provide squad speed increase.
Exarch upgrade cost increased to 85/15 from 50/15.


Rangers

Detection radius set to 30.
Long Rifle damage increased to 180, from 160.
Ranger cost decreased to 360/25.


Farseer

Farseer Armor of Asuryan requsition cost increased to 200 from 150.
Farseer Rune Armor health regeneration reduced.


Seer Council

Seer council zeal cost reduced to 600.
Seer council req cost reduced to 700.
Seer Council Singing spear damage reduced to 80 from 100.


Warlock

Warlock providence now affects Ethereal Slash cooldown.
Warlock energy drain on Merciless Witchblade reduced to 30 per hit, from 60.
Warlock Witchblade of Kurnous cost increased to 125/30.
Warlock Warp Throw power cost increased to 45.
Warlock Warp Throw recharge time increased to 45 seconds.


Warp Spiders

Fixed an issue that caused Haywire Grenades to have a chance to miss their target.
Warp Spider Deathspinner damage reduced to 21, from 25.
Warp Spider Exarch damage reduced to 34, from 37.
Warp spider Exarch damage modifier removed.
Exarch upgrade cost increased to 85/15.
Aspect of Warp Spider cost increased to 50/20.
Jump cost increased to 30 energy.


Warp Spider Exarch

Warpspider Exarch Phase Shift duration reduced to 10 seconds.
Warpspider Exarch Entangle duration reduced to 5 seconds.
Warpspider Heavy Gauge Filament energy drain increased to 4.5 per second from 3.5.
Spider's Brood cost increased to 350 requisition, from 125.
Jump cost increased to 30 energy.
Group Teleport cooldown increased to 90 seconds.


D-Cannon

Singularity ability on D-cannon fixed to deal damage at correct time.
D-cannon damage increased to 220 from 120, damage table changed.


Wraithlord

Wraithlord Shuriken Cannon damage reduced from 300 to 200.
Wraithlord Brightlance damage reduced to 100, from 170.
Wraithlord Brightlance upgrade requisition cost increased to 100, from 60. Power cost reduced to 40, from 60.
Wraithlord Shuriken Cannon upgrade requisition cost increased to 100, from 40.


Fire Prism

Dispersed beam area reduced to 10 meters, Focused beam damage increased to 200, reload decreased to 7 seconds from 8
Fire Prism shot now generates light cover instead of heavy cover.


Avatar

Avatar cost increased to 1000/250, hp increased to 7000 from 6000, leveling curve on hp decreased to 10% per level from 15%, build time increased to 90 seconds


Orks


Slugga Boyz

Slugga Nob cost increased to 75/25, from 50/25.


Mekboy

Mekboy Dakka Deffgun power cost increased to 30, from 20.
Mekboy Dakka Deffgun damage reduced to 350, from 450. Damage tuned such that the Mekboy's Deffgun does not ramp up as highly in damage at close range.

Banner Aura speed bonus reduced to .25, from .45
Banner Aura received damage modifier reduced to .94 from .91
Banner Aura received courage damage modifier reduced to .94 from .91
Banner Aura damage modifier reduced to 1.06 from 1.09
Supa Tuff Beam energy drain reduced to 3.5/sec from 7/sec.
Electric Shock energy drain reduced to 4/sec from 5/sec.


Warboss

Warboss Kustom Shoota changed to light weapon knockback.
Warboss Kustom Shoota knockback chance reduced to 10%.
Warboss Huge Choppa special attack changed to affect only enemy troops.
Warboss Boss Pole received courage damage modifier reduced to 0.5, from 0.25.


Stikkbommas

Stikkbomb damage reduced to 175, from 260.
Fixed a bug that was causing Stikkbombs to do far less damage than intended.
Stikkbomb explosions now generate light cover.


Stormboys

Stormboy Suicide attack now generates light cover.
Stormboy Nob cost increased to 75/25, from 50/25.


Kommando Nob

Kommando Camo Armor requisition cost increased to 100.
Kommando Kaboom recharge time increased to 20 seconds from 10.
Kommando Extra Equipment energy bonus reduced to 75, from 235.
Kommando Remote Detonation now generates light cover.
Boomtime explosion now generates light cover.


Kommandos

Kommando ambush ability range reduced to 35 meters from 50
Kommando shoota range reduced to 25, from 29, damage increased to 30, from 25.
Burna Bomb damage increased from 10 to 20, damage over time increased to 20 from 15.
Kommando Nob Leader detection radius set to 30.
Kommando Nob cost increased to 75/25, from 50/25.


Ork Waaagh shout ability

Waaagh shout speed bonus reduced to .07 from .1
Waaagh shout damage bonus reduced to 1.015 from 1.02.
Waaagh shout received damage reduction decreased to 0.985, from 0.98.
Waaagh shout received courage damage decreased to 0.996 from 0.985
Waaagh shout cooldown increased to 90 seconds from 60.


Wartrukk

Detection radius set to 30.


Looted Tank

Ork tank shot now has a 100% chance to generate cover, up from 50%.
Ork tank Boomgun now always generates cover.


Tyranids

Fixed a bug where the death of synapse creatures hurt the Tyranids around them twice instead of once.
Tyrannoformation tendrils now all generate light cover.
Fixed an issue with all Warrior and Zoanthrope synapse auras not increasing in effect with level. Additionally, the bonuses gained from leveling will stack with other synapse creatures.


Hive Tyrant

Brood Nest biomass cost increased to 225 from 175.
Hive Tyrant charge range increased from 10 to 15 meters, cooldown of charge decreased to 4 seconds from 6, speed increased to 4.5 from 4.
Health increased by 200.


Spore Mines

Spore mine explosion radius reduced to 8, from 15.


Lictor

Detection radius set to 30.
Flesh hook damage reduced to 180 from 230, can no longer target platforms.
HP increased to 600 from 500.
Damage decreased to 34, from 51.


Ravener

Ravener Devourer damage increased to 85 from 68, cooldown reduced to 1.4 from 1.8.
Fleet of Claw removed from Ravener squad.
Ravener Burrow now generates light cover.


Ravener Alpha

Ravener Toxic Miasma damage reduced to 15 per tick, from 20.
Catalyst damage taken reduced to 50% over 10 seconds, damage multiplier increased to 2.25, from 2.


Warriors

Increased damage of warrior melee with adrenal glands to 60, from 42.
Increased cost of warrior adrenal glands to 100/30, from 50/15.


Termagant

Termagant knockdown chance while under ranged synapse reduced to 25%, from 35%.


Zoanthrope

Zoanthrope reload reduced to 8 seconds, from 10.3
Fixed an issue with the Zoanthrope losing energy when leveling.


Carnifex

Increased cost of Venom Cannon to 100/30, from 30/10.
Increased cost of Barbed Strangler to 100/30, from 30/10.


Foot Notes

Grenade Spiking, where your squad can drop a grenade at their feet to kill enemy melee units and your squad doesn't take any damage, is an issue we're aware of and will be addressed for the first retail patch.

Probably the biggest game-changer is how requisition points are now handle. Hopefully, this will encourage more take-and-hold battles and fix some economy issues. Plus, exploding vehicles=cover is a very good thing. A lot of the other changes seem good to me. When I get a chance, I will give it a whirl and see how things turn out.
 
Woot! I just preordered my copy on Steam.

Double Woot! for the update. Vehicles will have more use, and from what I'm hearing on the official forums, Req points mean much more and units are lasting a bit longer instead of the near instant killage of the infantry.

My Eldar got quite a bit of adjustment so I will definitely be finding some new strategies. At least I won't have to worry about Shottie scouts too much, and dead vehicles provide cover. So even dying vehicles have some use now.
 
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