Christianity is too freakin' confusing.

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You may be but I am not. I personally still feel that faith is from the heart and cannot really be reasoned the way you are desperately looking for. So since my prayers are what I talk to God about I am sorry but I will still have to ask Him to take away the logic and make the heart explain it to you.
On a side note to an earlier conversation my husband is not an atheist so I have that hope as well to built on. Blessings,"Angel"
 
I agree that faith is from the heart.

It has to be, because it goes against the rules of logic and reason.

Although I'd love to see an argument for faith based on logic.
 
Sorry DV, I haven't been reading this thread.

Pardon me Plankeye, with all due respect, if you believe that DV is a liar then you clearly do not understand him. It is not the freethinker way to actively devise new ways to avoid acceptance of theistic thought, for that would be going against the fundamental principles of freethought. DV is an evidentialist, in that he values evidence for its truth revealing qualities. Yes, his threads are geared towards revealing holes in the theist logic structure, but that's merely becuase it's not that hard to find them.

Consider your position before declaring to know the one 'true' answer to everything. From a logician's point of view, the arguement for your position is hardly sound, as it relies too heavily on faith to build bridges over the absense of conclusive evidence. You have a difficult time fathoming why DV refuses to make a similar leap of faith, but I think you must always be aware of the properties which such an act entails. You do not know for sure whether you are right; you 'believe' that you are right. The word 'know' implies something factual, whereas the existance of an all powerful diety is hugely an intangible. This is why TOLERANCE is so important. You, sir, are being intolerant. Methinks you should show some respect, and appologize to DV. He is most certainly not a liar, for to be so would go against his core values. Mine as well.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Goodness..... I wished we would all be a bit more civil and loving. As even from your own mouth DV you have said you do believe in love.
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I couldn't agree more. Most (NOT ALL) of the posts here from the Christians seem to support DV's opening thesis. If I was a non-christian and saw all of these posts, I would truely question whether or not I wanted be a part of this religion. Yes, walls can be built, other times, we just do not "click" with God due to our own intellect, stubbornness or whatever. But, as Christians, are we not called to love everyone? Are we not supposed to hate the sin, not the sinner?

Liar is a pretty harsh term. I do not think it is called for here. This thread could have developed into a decent agrument / explanation for the differences that DO exist in Christianity.
 
Thanks, better late than never
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[possible topic hijack]

I editted my post which may have lead to a topic hijack...so sorry

[no more topic hijacking]
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Far more effective is to love the "sinner" as Christ loved and, by our own conduct and communication, model a better way.
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Agree, just trying to get us (Christians) back to where we should be...

EDIT: Too late, already quoted. Now, that we are behaving ourselves again, anyone care to address the points that DV brought up?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Oct. 27 2004,10:09)]I pity the poor soul looking to convert to Christianity.

Where does one begin?

There are HUNDREDS of different translations of the "one true" Bible.

There are many, many different sects, denominations, divisions and cults of Christianity all claiming to follow Christ's teachings yet all teaching contrary things.

There is very little unity between these denominations, with hatred and bloodshed still taking place today, yet all fly under the banner of peace and love.

There are many different, conflicting theories on salvation.

Christianity abhors anything unChristian yet embraces pagan rituals as its own.

Christians detest hypocrisy yet as a whole, no one rises up against the biggest hypocrites like Benny Hinn, instead allowing them to deceive fellow brothers and sisters.

Christians use personal experiences and miracles to support the belief in their God while ignoring the fact that other religious followers have similar experiences to support the belief in THEIR gods.

I could go on and on, but my brain is splitting.

I'd ask how you guys find ways to get along together, but it's obvious that denominations DON'T get along.  Everyone can't be right.  Where does one cross the line to believing something that won't get them "saved".  Can someone be a Christian and NOT be "saved"?  If so, how many people in history have died under the impression they were saved, but really aren't.  Do these people get a second chance to learn the RIGHT way?

The more time I spend here, the more confused I get.  

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I was a scholar like DV.I had to touch, tastes, feel it before I acknowledge it. I mother and sisters and new age witches (For lack of a better term) who are Christian bashers. I can remember so of the happiest moments of my life were studying the bible as a lad, and visiting the seminary at Mount Cavalry in WI.

But I be came a bad boy, too many Arnold and Rambo movies. Hit time square at 15 and never looked back. I ‘knew” there was a God but did not “know” Him. I have been born again for about two years now. I had to take the scariest, illogical Leap of “Hope” it wasn’t faith it was hope that God was real and Christ was real.

Through that road I have seen things and had prayers answered that has concreted my Faith. My faith has been tested and tried and I stand believing on Gods word. This can be explained away by any Free Thinker or even a parking lot Christian. But to other believers and till father God lets me jump in his lap. I will preach the word the best I can.

Like the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can not make it drink. I can not ever make it all make sense. And DV neither will any one else ever. You know enough about religions and theories to make your adult choice. If it does make sense to believe in a savoir or the Christian” religion” don’t my friend. I hope you find the answers you seek. I pray I see you that Day we are in heaven.

But either way friend, it will be an interesting journey. But unless you take a lead of hope you will not find what you what your asking for. But for logical and reason, I do not think God plays by those rules.

I think you are being shifted and threshed for what ever Father God has in store for you next.

It starts with Reading the Bible And praying over and over and truely opening your heart. Give LOrd Jesus pernmission you change in you what needs changing. If you do and you allow Christ this, you will see changes and little by little The Holy Spirit will guide you to where you need to be.

But you know this
 
Please don't take offense, but I'm tired of hearing I WAS JUST LIKE YOU! Sorry, but you weren't.

Let me explain...

You claim you were once a "scholar" like me. I don't claim to be a "scholar" nor do I think it's an accurate representation of me. However, let's move on. Assuming that you were a scholar, you weren't a very good one. A scholar, a man of logic and reason, would never say, " I ‘knew” there was a God but did not “know” Him." A Freethinker, as I claim to be, cannot in good conscious believe in something, KNOW something as you say, without evidence.

The more people that share their conversion stories, the more I see a trend. This is it, "I had to take the scariest, illogical Leap of “Hope” it wasn’t faith it was hope that God was real and Christ was real." You WANTED Christianity to be real before you believed in it. I have heard this story several times. Gen is another great example of this. How could you, as a "scholar" believe in something without understanding it. I believe you wanted it to be real so bad, you did everything you could, consciously and unconciously to make it real to you. As you said yourself, you didn't have faith...you had HOPE. You made it real to yourself because you wanted it to be real. That's not a scholarly approach.

You said, "It starts with Reading the Bible And praying over and over and truely opening your heart. Give LOrd Jesus pernmission you change in you what needs changing. If you do and you allow Christ this, you will see changes and little by little The Holy Spirit will guide you to where you need to be." This is another misconception that keeps rearing its ugly head. The assumption or ignorance that Atheists have no understanding of Christianity, when in truth, many Atheists were once Christians. Not just Christians, but Christians who logically and objectively took a look at their beliefs and found faith lacking.

As I have said before, if God wants me, He knows where to find me. Is that arrogance as some have claimed? BE CLEAR ABOUT THIS, it is NOT arrogance. I do not presume myself to be greater than an omnimax being. But no amount of desire on my part will bring God to me. Been there, done that. If God chooses to damn me to hell for eternity because of the logical brain He put between my ears, then so be it. But God and I will know there is no denial in my soul. I have never denied Him. I simply do not have evidence to believe in His existence. If that reserves a seat for me in Hell, I think I shall be in very good company.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]As I have said before, if God wants me, He knows where to find me. Is that arrogance as some have claimed? BE CLEAR ABOUT THIS, it is NOT arrogance.
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It is arrogance. You are demanding that God come to you, when He has already said you must come to HIM. Its really a standoff with God, and quite frankly, your not going to win that one. I am pretty sure that God bows to no ones demands.

As for the whole liar thing, all plank was saying was that your statement
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]If God wants me, I'm right here waiting
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is a lie. You are not waiting on God, just as you are not here to be proven wrong. While I do learn from what you write, I know that the odds of you leading someone here astray who is weak in their faith is greater than the odds of us convincing you that we are right.

Anyway, religion is so confusing because man makes it that way. Take the Bible, read it, and understand what it teaches, not what someone tells you it teaches.

Cory
 
The labels seem to bother you DV, I apologize for using them. I did not mean to put you in a box. I had hope true. In fact I have nothing, but that is another story. I have gained Faith though. And As far as wishing it was real lets say your idea I wanted it to be true is not correct.

It amazes me how you keep insisting “I WAS JUST LIKE YOU! Sorry, but you weren't. “We all want to feel we are unique, No one could understand what I have been, through, done what ever. Every book has a story, every story can be categorized. Even you.

So Like I said God has a work in you weather you see it or not, you are being shifted and threshed. Weather you acknowledge that or not. In none of my concern.

So I do not take offense, It’s like I said, God speaks to us differently. What you saw as hope some heard a testimony that will used for something. I am not confused about my beliefs, nor any I claming anything by being a Bible believing Christian.

So I am ok with your views. 
 
Note that this thread is not on the confusion of religion in general, but about Christianity specifically.

I HAVE read the Bible, thoroughly and have come to the conclusions that I have.

Look at the homosexuality thread and the Christian church link I posted that caters to gays and lesbians. You can make the Bible read any way you want to, claiming all the way that the Holy Spirit is guiding you. In the end it's your faith vs their faith, your interpretation vs their interpretation. Sorry, but THAT is confusing.

Before I get accused of something else FALSELY, let's examine the definition of arrogant. It is defined as, "a feeling or an impression of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or presumptuous claims". I have neither a feeling or impression of superiority, nor am I overbearing in this area. At best you could claim that I am being presumptuos, but taken by itself, that doesn't imply arrogance.

What does one do to find God?

Pray, prostrate themselves before God, draw closer to Him.

Then what? The creation can do NOTHING. It is up to God to impart the Holy Spirit upon them. It is NOT arrogant to wait on God. Do you forget all the Psalms in the Bible that mention this very topic? "I WAITED patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry." "And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him."

I am WAITING. If God wants me, He will make it so. To claim this is arrogance is to not understand the Bible you are thumping me with.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (MontrezAnthony @ Oct. 29 2004,8:47)]The labels seem to bother you DV, I apologize for using them. I did not mean to put you in a box. I had hope true. In fact I have nothing, but that is another story. I have gained Faith though. And As far as wishing it was real lets say your idea I wanted it to be true is not correct.

It amazes me how you keep insisting “I WAS JUST LIKE YOU! Sorry, but you weren't. “We all want to feel we are unique, No one could understand what I have been, through, done what ever. Every book has a story, every story can be categorized. Even you.

So Like I said God has a work in you weather you see it or not, you are being shifted and threshed. Weather you acknowledge that or not. In none of my concern.

So I do not take offense, It’s like I said, God speaks to us differently. What you saw as hope some heard a testimony that will used for something. I am not confused about my beliefs, nor any I claming anything by being a Bible believing Christian.

So I am ok with your views. 
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Thanks Montrez.
 
Given the situation, there's not much else to do.

However, since this is my life we're talking about, I can't sit idly by.

I will continue to live my life as best I can, I will continue to ask questions, I will continue to find answers where I can. Such is the life of a Freethinker
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