Christian Guilds

[Ruthee]

I was wondering something about the Christian guilds in WoW. Is there a way for folks to decide wether a certain 'Christian guild' is the right fit for them in the WoW gaming world? I mean is there something set up for folks that are primarily power gamers that would fit them specifically? Is there something set up for folks that are primarily fellowship/fun/family orientated gamers that would fit them specifically? Is there something something set up for maybe older generation gamers or younger generation gamers that would fit them specifically? I've noticed a lot of folks out there looking for a Christian guild, but each person has different criteria they would like that guild to meet. In saying that some of these differences that folks have are thrown together in some of the larger guilds, which sometimes creates some problems of it's own. If there is nothing set up in the leadership of these guilds that meet these primairy needs then there will be problems. If the leadership decides to lean towards one primary focus such as power gaming, then it in turn begins to isolate others that believe that is not the best path for them in the game. Anyway, I hope I'm not confusing anyone here, but I was basically wanting to know if anyone KNEW any of the answers to some of these questions. Is there a way for folks to come to this site and find a guild that is more suitable to their vision of how a guild should function, so that everyone can enjoy it and there is no discord among believers in Christ in this gaming forum? Any input would be greatly appreciated

 

[Avesther]

Do they have to be different guilds? Look at your church ... people set up groups based on their interests. The church simply facilitates, provides resources and direction as necessary. There are youth groups, sunday school, adult programs, different types of bible studies, prayer groups, mens groups, womens groups and the list goes on. Not everybody belongs to all groups. And the existance of the different groups doesn't tear the church apart.

People who actively participate in their church in the areas that interest them, or start new groups based on common interest often rave about how successful their church is. People who don't actively participate, often are the ones who rant about how there is nothing to do that interests them.

The same is true of guilds, christian or not. As a guild grows in size, people start looking for things that interest them, and groups of people who have similiar interests. There will always be like minded people in any guild, and if they aren't organized yet, then somebody needs to step up who has that interest, and organize them.

 

[Ruthee]

You make some good points, but if a guild does not facilitate such groups then the needs go unmet. If leadership promotes only one aspect of gaming that appeals to a particular group of people, they only isolate others in the guild. For everyone to feel as if they are a part of the guild and valued, then leadership has to establish and facilitate such grouping and ENFORCE it. This does not mean leadership favors one group over the rest, thus failing in the process of overseeing all the groups. Leadership should oversee, promote and be actively involved in some way with each group wether it be delegating the task to someone in leadership to participate from time to time in the gatherings or what have you. In comparison to the church, Leadership (pastoral staff, elders, etc...), oversee the flock (congregation) and create various groups to meet their flocks needs. If the leadership fails to do that and primarily follows their own ambitions, then they neglect the flock and isolation sets in. Leadership is not an easy job by any means, and that is why one must be called to do so. We are to pray for our leaders and for them to make GODLY decisions as they are leading the flock. If we apply this to the gaming realm and to guilds which is totally appropriate, then the ones that actually need to step up to plate is leadership and to lead with a stern hand but a good heart. A sheperd leads the sheep and has a PASSION for the sheep. If the sheperd is all about himself or just about getting the job done, then he needs to choose a different profession. People are very diverse and have many different talents, personalities and needs, thus leadership has a hard job to fill, but a highly honored one. So I still wonder if the guilds are out there that accomodate the needs for such a diverse people and help them all feel like a part of the guild without isolation, then where are they? Also, if leadership chooses to micromanage a lot and not delegate then it's very easy to become overwhelmed. If folks offer to help from the guild and leadership does not allow them to help then that also contributes to folks isolation and to leadership's overloaded plate if you will. If a guild has a charter that they have implemented, then it's leadership's responsibility to make sure that folks abide by the charter. Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to reply, God's Peon (Cory), I hope to hear more feedback in regards to this.

 

[jazmina]

I dont feel that there could ever be a guild that completely provides what every member wants from it. People have different wants and expectations and often their interests and goals even change over time. A guild is very often like a church. We have to remember like the church building itself (or guild) is not what makes up the spirit of the church but rather the people within it. My uncle has been instrumental in the starting of many different churches. He often doesnt realize that God has used him for this purpose but looking back over his life there are many churches that started off from small groups he was involved in. Often these churches started small...2-3 families meeting in each others homes...then growing into storefronts and later getting building of their own. Often these churches began because the core group left their previous churches feeling church should be a certain way, or do or teach a certain thing that they were missing or because there was a particular need that wasnt being met in their area. But often some of these churches grew large and different people with different desires, goals, viewpoints or leadings became a part of it. Which is a good thing as God uses diversity wonderfully, but often this caused groups of people to once again feel "isolated" or that a need isnt met and thus the cycle begane again with people leaving and eventually a new church being born. Now this may sound horrible to some. How could there be any sort of division in the church? Shouldnt everyone just put up and shut up for the sake of unity? Why does God allow this? Often pastors and members from the previous churches feel betrayed or angry because people left and started a new group. (Now remember guilds are often like churches..this happens in guilds also and has)But I ask you...if God never allowed people to feel and have different expectations, if he never laid it on their hearts to move on and meet needs that arent being met how many churches would there be in your town, state or country? How would God have spread his word to people who werent being ministered to by the original church? We have at least 6 baptist churches in our town and numerous more non denominational churches. Because they are not all in the same building does that mean they are to be cut off from one another? In my community they work together often refering people to other churches if their needs arent being met in a particualr one. What that does is ensures these people are getting ministered to and being able to stay a part of the ministry even though they may not be comfortable where they started.

I know there are a few who were upset or angry that I started a new guild on the emerald dream server. They may feel that offering another christian guild would tear people away from Redeemed and weaken our unity. But that is not the way I see it. The new guild gives an opportunity for those frustrated with Stonemaul server or even those feeling they are lacking something in Redeemed a place to go where they are still a part of the same fellowship. I would rather see them come to a christian guild that is part of redeemed/toj then drift off to these larger guilds or quit playing with us all together as has happened many times. I also see it as a way for God to use us on another server with a whole different group of people who are not getting what we are offering on stonemaul. I see it as growing.

So at this point I see 3 options for people that I am aware of that have been born from God using Redeemed...We have Redeemed for the people that like to be in a bigger more raid oriented guild on a pvp server, We have Mustard Seed Conspiracy for those who like a pve setting on a horde server and we have HIS for those who prefer a smaller guild that is more geared towards casual gamers on a roleplaying server. There is no reason people cant play in any or all of these guilds and have their needs met. Through these 3 guilds so far God is offering everyone plenty of options. And if we have others feelings in mind there is no reason to be angry at anyone for choosing to be a part of any of these guilds as we are still all of 1 body and should be supporting each other.

 

[kraniac]

We're kind of a niche as it is. In other games, I've often had to choose between being in a Christian clan, and being in a competitive clan. The more specialized we become, and the more narrowly we define ourselves, the less likely we are to find a group that meets our criteria.

In Unreal Tournament 2004 (my game du jour), I joined ToJ because it was a Christian clan. I became interested in competitive play, but the rest of ToJ wasn't, so I joined :CyB:, a competitive clan, and when they dissolved, I knew enough about competition to go back to ToJ and start a clan that was both Christian AND competitive. And in the end, there wasn't enough people interested in competition within ToJ, so we had to dissolve.

The point is, you can't always get everything of what you want. You have to choose sometimes which of your criteria is most important to you.

Is there a way for folks to come to this site and find a guild that is more suitable to their vision of how a guild should function, so that everyone can enjoy it and there is no discord among believers in Christ in this gaming forum?

There is always going to be discord among any group of people, simply because people are people, Christian or not. The key is dealing with it properly. And if people have a specific vision of how a guild should function and they can't find one that fits it, they should make one corresponding to that vision.

If the leadership decides to lean towards one primary focus such as power gaming, then it in turn begins to isolate others that believe that is not the best path for them in the game.

Most guilds specialize themselves on the basis of personalities and play styles. We specialize on the basis of Christianity. If we were to specialize with regard to play style AND Christianity, there would not be enough members to do anything.

Am I correct in inferring that you feel we are tending to specialize to power gaming? And could you define the term? I'm not exactly sure what is meant.

 

[Elihu]

It is to the best of my understanding that Tek created ToJ in the beginning to see if there were other christian gamers out there that shared the same interest as he (starcraft at the time). He found others, or they found him, and things began to bloom. Over time we have had more and more people join because they seek out fellowship with others based upon similar beliefs in Christ. Same as it is now with our group in WoW. We still seek out others that share our same ideals for many different reasons. Most of those reasons include fellowship, but are not limited to it...there is also those who enjoy a clean chat area while in-game, those that are already friends of others that have joined us, those are are part of families that join, and probably some I haven't thought of. A guild is much like a church with a need for leadership, and a community to feel free to fellowship and worship in. A church does instigate some activities that are needed as well to fit the doctrines of the church (i.e. praise and worship team) and puts people in charge of those areas. Does that mean that a church has to create everything that goes on in it...such as create social events to promote fellowship...no. Do churches sometimes do this..yes...but I sincerely think that christians will willingly reach out to others in their community for social connection. I also do not believe that the pastor needs to be involved in every aspect of his church as far as attending all events or activities. I do believe that a pastor should be aware of the happenings in each from his people managing those areas, but I also believe that a pastor (such as mine in a church of over 3,000) does not have time to do all of the things the church does. The people are the key part here...many of the groups in our church are formed by members and create their own niche in the church. The point to all of this is to show that the church can only do so much, the people need to take the initiative if they feel the church is lacking in something or may need to create an activity based on the needs of others that they have noticed. You should be able to tell that we are taking steps in this direction by the former posts made on the new positions available in the guild. If you want to contribute to any of these areas and GET INVOLVED, then please sign up for them. This guild is still to some degree in growing stages. We take on new members every week and do need to start looking to having some activities set up. I will say this, I will not force people in the guild to get involved in the activities that become available...this is something the people will need to work on for themselves. I can only ask for some of you to step up and take on some responsibiolity instead of pointing fingers saying why doesn't the guild have this or why aren't we doing that. You want it so bad??? Make it happen. I can ensure that if anyone wants to try a new aspect or activity or social event, that I will make sure that we as leaders do everything we can to help as long as it is approved by all leaders and is within charter guidelines.

 

[Ruthee]

It's good to see that others do have a thought on this. I agree that the pastor should not be involved with every aspect of the church, and I did not say that. What I did say was, "Leadership should oversee, promote and be actively involved in some way with each group wether it be delegating the task to someone in leadership to participate from time to time in the gatherings or what have you. In comparison to the church, Leadership (pastoral staff, elders, etc...), oversee the flock (congregation) and create various groups to meet their flocks needs." What this means is, the right hand should know what the left hand is doing to some degree and have the folks in leadership be the "go to" people for any said kind of grouping. I too am very familiar with the church body and have been a preacher's kid at one point in time and have been very close knit to all that goes on in a church. I know that folks can't just start their own thing without making sure it doesn't interfere with charter guidelines, and in some cases it is necessary for leadership to approve a task that would involve bringing fellow brothers and sisters in the corporate body together under the heading of that Churches name. If folks want to get together on their own and not use the church name for their gathering, (or guild name), then they have that right such as the folks of HIS on Emerald Dream did. As for making things happen, one can not change the heart of man and woman. If a Christian guild has grown to the point that it doesn't flourish with a LOVING, CARING and SELFLESS type of enviroment, then the folks that choose to leave and create such an enviroment that the larger guild lacks, are free to do so, especially if that is what they believe GOD has led them to do. I know when folks leave a church or a guild, feathers tend to get ruffled. People that are left behind if you will tend to gossip and shun the folks that have left, believing solely in their own minds that the folks that are gone are in error. What right is it for someone to judge their motivations and what they believe GOD has for them? It hurts to lose guild members, but I see it like this. We are the body of Christ with many members. Some folks are arms, some legs, some hands and some feet... Sometimes a hand doesn't fit in one body, because GOD had other plans for that person and he chose for their hand to go to another body if you will. We are a diverse people, but we can choose to make things better and work for the greater good or we can be set in our ways refusing to bend because of pride. It's all a matter of perspective. Is the glass half empty or is it half full? No guild or church cane meet every person's needs, that was made for GOD himself alone, but I was referring to the gaming world and the basic things that a gamer wants out of their playing time when they're in the WoW enviroment. Does Redeemed fit, Forgiven7 fit, Mustard Seed Conspiracy fit or HIS? It's more options for a diverse body of CHRIST. Have a blessed day!!!

 

[Elihu]

I think its funny that you mention this and yet when i have made posts for new areas to help increase involvement, socialism, ministry and other areas to help better our guild, only one person has had the initiative to strive to make our guild better by stepping up and taking some responsibility. Like i said in my earlier post, you want something bad enough...you have to be willing to help make it happen. You can't point fingers at leadership for everything. We can only take you so far as to help set guidelines and enforce them...the people have to be willing to dedicate their time to the cause. I'm not saying we don't want a hand i the things you want to do...I'm just saying get something put together for us to approve and we can help put it into action.

 

[Ruthee]

involvement?

Well in times past, folks tried to be involved (especially in guild meetings) and were shut down and stifled by leadership. As for stepping up to the plate within Redeemed now and applying for some of the open positions that have finally been posted since folks started HIS on Emerald Dream, I'd say, is this just a last attempt to try and get folks back into a place where they don't feel they should be to begin with? I mean let's face it, the toons of mine that are still in Redeemed I don't play, and the ones I do play are not in the guild. Why would folks want to come back to a guild where the majority of the folks there are shunning them for leaving to begin with and judging them, which is NOT their place? Why would folks want to come back to a guild where the people don't say hello to members and don't go out of their way to be a kind Christian fellowship on somewhat of a consistent basis? All of a sudden positions are being created and you are asking folks to step up to the plate to help, when this wasn't a real thrust in the past. Instead people spoke about what bothered them about the fellowship to leadership and hoped it would change, but it only got worse and worse. Now, when a mass of people feel unvalued, disconnected, isolated and left out, there is a problem. Some might say the problem is the people that feel that way themselves, but I tend to lean toward the notion that it's the attitude and heart of the ones in the fellowship and leadership that haven't behaved in a Christ like manner and openly befriended others without their own personal agenda being at the forefront or their gaming style has been more toward raids and big groups. It looks like lots of folks have thoughts on this, but I believe you are missing the point of what I'm trying to say Elihu. At any rate, I see what you are saying which is basically be quiet and step up to the plate to help fill one of the open positions and then you can have a part in making things better. (How can one do this when there are those in leadership that are upset with folks like me? They wouldn't want me to fill a position for one single minute because of folks moving to another server and Christian guild that actually has the same vision as I have for the most part) I disagree with the notion that there isn't an issue that needs to be addressed here. I guess at this point the best we can do is agree to disagree since no one in leadership sees any validity in the threads of the post I placed. If we're all part of the body of Christ then we shouldn't try to alienate or mistreat others because they feel GOD has a different path for them to go. Finally, may GOD richly bless all of us and open our eyes to see all that HE has for us.

 

[kraniac]

(How can one do this when there are those in leadership that are upset with folks like me? They wouldn't want me to fill a position for one single minute because of folks moving to another server and Christian guild that actually has the same vision as I have for the most part

The positions are offered. You can't say that because people in the leadership don't like you, you can't have a position. You have to be willing to compromise, and be an advocate for whatever underrepresented group you feel you're representing. If Redeemed is to cater to different groups of people we need different groups of people in leadership. Leadership doesn't have to be a monolithic structure that always agrees. (I have no idea what you're talking about with leadership not liking you, by the way, but I stay out of business that isn't mine, so my ignorance doesn't mean anything.)

I could be completely reading you wrong here, but I get the feeling that you're trying to ask for a change in how things work, but you keep euphemizing and being vague in an attempt to avoid confrontation or offense. While certainly you shouldn't offend anybody on purpose, I think you'll need to be a little more specific in your appeals if you want to change something in the guild. And I think that sort of discussion is much more suited to communication by either forum private message, or TeamSpeak. Basically, you need to sit down with people you feel are erring, and say, "Here are specific areas where I think Redeemed needs to improve, and here are ways to improve it."

If we're all part of the body of Christ then we shouldn't try to alienate or mistreat others because they feel GOD has a different path for them to go.

This is an example of what I mean by euphemization and vagueness. From my perspective, this appears to be a veiled accusation that you feel alienated and mistreated. If you feel alienated and mistreated, you should give examples of things that made you feel alienated or mistreated to the people that you feel are responsible, and offer suggestions on how to fix it.

Just last week I offended someone with a word I used in Guild chat. I didn't consider it offensive in the slightest, and if I had, I wouldn't have used it. Someone else took offense and asked me to watch my language. I didn't understand what he meant, specifically, so I asked him. When he cited the specific word that set him on edge, I learned not to use that word anymore. It's like that-- you have to give specific examples of what bothers you, and specific ways to improve. Veiled statements of discontent and alleged mistreatement don't help us improve.

 

[Elihu]

I wholeheartedly agree with what Kraniac posted....and myself being in a position of leadership within the guild can honestly say that I have never purposefully ignored or isolated myself from anyone one in particular in the guild. You leaving the guild is your own choice and I shun no one for that. I would also ask that all other Redeemed members keep you in their hearts and prayers as good friends trying to better the WoW community like ourselves. I will say that your points do seem to have certain invalidities to them. Not only have I, being a leader, never neglected anyone on purpose for any reason...but I also have not been asked by any member why we can't try this, or do that. The leadership that has been in place has done an excellent job in the past of trying to get this guild off the ground with a stabilized leadership in place as well as having key people doing key things. Have you even once thanked Plankeye for the work he has done on the website?? Have you even offered to help?? I haven't seen you step up and offer to head up raids or better yet...offer to process new members apps. Is the posting for these positions in lieu of people leaving the guild and starting their own. Perhaps in part yes, you have made us see that we cannot hope to do all of these ourselves. We can start by saying that we're sorry for not taking the personal time out of our own lives to help enrich yours with no work done on your part at all, but we don't. We dedicate ourselves to what we are trying to accomplish here, sometimes even allowing it to interfere with our own personal lives for your benefit and when someone comes along that doesn't appreciate that and presumes that they know of how to do things better, it becomes frustrating and very upsetting. I have posted these new positions to allow others to step up and try their hand at some of the things available. I wouldn't mind if you wanted to take on one of the positions whatsoever...all you have to do is ask. (of which i still have yet to see) So before you toss your words so carelessly around, I would ask that you look back at your own selfishness and realize what you are bringing to the table for your own people. You want things to change, become an active participant and do something to help bring about that change. Otherwise...we from Redeemed wish you well on your journeys and hold no ill towards you. You are always welcome to come and join us for our adventures and our striving to be better. I will guarantee that anyone that mistreats you or you feel like mistreats you or the guildies on your server for what has happened in the past will meet with leadership and will be dealt with. I am a shepherd who looks after his flock, the leaders above me included and will not stand idly by and allow them to be attacked for things which are beyond their control or for which they are not willing to say for themselves.

BTW-- the above mentioned positions is not a last ditch effort for the members of HIS to come back to a guild with which they feel they have no place. They were posted so that members, new or old, would have the ability to participate and take some of the load that your leaders do now for you. Members who are participating in others guild we wish you harm or malice, we merely are looking out for our own members.

 

[Ruthee]

Hmmmm....

Some pretty harsh words there. When we met in a big guild meeting when some of us decided to come back to Redeemed upon leaving once before we were told that things would change for the better. We were NOT asked to help, although we did offer our help and our feedback in where we thought the guild could improve. Leadership picked their own people they had in mind for certain things and told folks to vote on them... We did not pick the people. As for helping out with things in the guild, leadership micromanaged and KEPT the burdens on themselves for whatever reason. Maybe they didn't feel we were capable of doing a good enough of job or something, I am not able to presume their motives, but they did it their way. Leadership is often a thankless job, but they need to learn how to reach out to others for help instead of getting overwhelmed. So this seems to have turned into a heated bashing of me and my stand on things, as I am only trying to express a valid concern with Redeemed and how we handle accomodating other Christians in the gaming realm with a guild they can connect with. I will not name names personally because I refuse to make this a public bashing of one particular person, especially when I feel that many are involved and responsible for it. At any rate to answer your questions... 1) No I have never personally thanked Plankeye for the work he's done for the website because I was not aware that he was behind it. 2) Yes I have offered my help in the guild to fellow guildies and to the leadership on many occasions. 3) I have not offered to head up raids because that is NOT in my gaming style to be in big raids, it stresses me out with all the greed and ill behavior, so i prefer not to engage in it. 4) As for taking on a position and you being happy and others being happy about it that disagree with me in regards to the validity of this post, I seriously doubt it would go on without a hitch. I'm not about to put myself in a position to be gossiped about, setup for a lose/lose situation since there is apparently already hostilities and ill will against what I've stated reflected in some of these posts. Thus, I'm sure my support would be very slim from the guild and leadership after word got around about me. 5) I wanted things to change and we left Redeemed one time before. We came back under the pretense that things were changing for the better. There was one big lengthy guild meeting where I expressed my concerns and so did others. Things seemed to change for a VERY short period of time for the better, and then it fizzled out to what it is now. So even though I'm happy about being on Emerald Dream and in the guild I'm in, I still have toons that I've worked hard and leveled on that are still in Redeemed, but I do not play them. I offered this post as a thought provoking post to see if anyone else was paying attention and what their ideas were on all of this. So as for coming in there and doing something to change it, I can't do that. What I can do is offer some thought provoking feedback from what I and others have experienced in Redeemed and it's shift toward power gaming for the most part and it's shift that has moved away from fun, caring Christian fellowship like it originally was when the guild first began under it's original name, when WoW came out. 6) Finally, what maybe you DON'T seem to realize is that there are folks that still have toons and play within Redeemed, that also play within HIS. So, if you are only looking out for your own members, what exactly does that mean? What it should mean, is that the folks that play within both guilds should not be shunned by either guild, and I guarantee you folks have been shunned that are playing on Emerald Dream primarily from folks that play only on Redeemed. If you don't believe me, then i challenge you to pay attention to guild chat when you're on and who all is on at that time. You will see if you have your eyes open to it. 7)Enough said.... you can say anything else you wish on the thread and post... I'm exhausted and I think I've said my peace and also given others food for thought. At this point anything I say will be WRONG to some of you and I know that, so there is really no point in rehashing it. If you have anything else to say to me, I welcome you to a private message or email. Over and out. HAVE A BLESSED DAY!!!!!!!

 

[Exo-Slayer]

I haven't been following much of whats been happening lately been a bit busy but I will say this, I play only on stonemaul, I've invested a lot of time there and honestly don't intend on creating any new characters any time soon.

What it should mean, is that the folks that play within both guilds should not be shunned by either guild, and I guarantee you folks have been shunned that are playing on Emerald Dream primarily from folks that play only on Redeemed.

I will say I've never played on Emerald Dream, I'm not even sure who plays over there, I just treat anyone who plays the same, no matter if they are in the guild or some random person I group with. I try to meet everyone I play with a Christ like attitude, no matter if they are in Redeemed, His, or people outside the guild. I've not seen anyone singled out because of where they play but I would say if this happens please take a SS and bring it to our attention, we aren't able to monitor what happens in the Guild 24/7 but if there is a problem the only way to fix it is to bring it to our attention.

 

[Avesther]

My turn to speak up.

I'm proud of the way I lead redeemed. I tried to keep it cellular and open and free to those who wanted to try their hand at leading something, anything that they wanted. I did away with the corporate rigidity of heirarchy and never demanded that people commit in absolute terms to specifics.

Thinking quickly back through the past few months:

Chivah takes up the reigns and organizes weekly teachings in Stormwind.

Deborrah plans a guild raid on TM, everybody in the guild that was on that day joined except for those who were committed elsewhere

Proeliator gets the guild together on July 4 in Elwynn forest for fireworks and story telling around a fire.

All the highlights and best times the guild has had is when members themselves take up the reigns and lead others in events. People in this guild have shown time and time again, that this guild is what its members make of it.

Reading through these posts in this thread, only one question pops into my mind: What are we making of it now?

 

[jazmina]

Ok. I think this weed has grown from a tiny flower to a full blown yard infestation. I know Ruth is trying to address some things she feels needs to be resolved before the guild sets up new leadership and direction so this weed doesnt continue to grow. From her posts and speaking to her I can tell she is very frustrated. In her frustration what has come out in her posts and letters may not show the obvious. Ruth loves the people in Redeemed. She likes her characters, but the atmosphere in guild restrains her from enjoying that. I know she is trying to stand up for what she sees is wrong but cant word things the way they need to be to clear things up because she wants to protect the feelings of those involved.

I have said some things but I havent addressed things I guess they way they should be to help clear things up. Mostly because I to am frustrated over the entire ordeal and have been moved to take steps of my own to make things better.

Back in May of this year we all held a very urgent important meeting...the only "guild meeting" we have had as a guild. The notes from that time are still posted. I have seen hurt people throw up in these posts that others have not offered to help..have not offered suggestions etc etc. Back before this meeting I myself offered to help. I led the Knight's of the Trinity for 2 years in Daoc. There were times we were a small guild and there were times we were a large guild. I learned many valuable lessons leading that guild. I learned valuable things about the members of that guild. Over half the members of redeemed came from KOT. To me they are like family. Dear friends that were always there when I needed them and I for them. So I have not hesitated to offer my advice and assistance. I have had a handful of members from the Kot express concerns with the leadership and ask me to step up and offer to co-lead or at least do what I can to assist in the way things were being run. I had many long conversations with both bannard and bowser even when bowser was not playing but served as advisor. We all come from different backgrounds and experiences and tend to see things differently. I cannot say that I feel that all of my advice has been heeded or acted upon. As far as co-leading the only position I was offered was as a recruiter. Which I took and did willingly. But even then other recruiters were appointed and not even instructed on how recruiting was to be handled. This led to people joining the guild who 1. were not actually of the same mind as us 2. who had absolutly no clue we had a website, charter or forums. (which being we didnt have guild meetings untill something bad was happening was our only form of guildwide communication). Thus causing more division.

If you read the notes from our emergency guild meeting that was held 5 months ago you will see that many suggestions were offered and problems discussed. Some of which I and Ruth were very vocal about. You will also noticed that back then we were supposed to change the ranks to reflect offering everyone more a part in the leadership and running of the guild. The way the guild was structured was addressed as a concern from many members. What ever happened to that? Why has it taken 5 months and the resignation of a frustrated guild leader to put those wheels in motion? We also addressed concerns about the atmosphere, heart, intentions and spirit of redeemed.
Please take the time to reread the sticky on the guild meeting. It is very very clear about what we agreed the heart of Redeemed should be. I know we have had many new members join from that time...perhaps our first mistake was not making them read this particular post before joining?

When this guild was originally formed on the Illidan server over half of us (I'm refering to those that became a part after release not before) expressed dissatisfaction with having it on a pvp realm. Not that we didnt like to pvp but we right away saw the aggressiveness of the server and didnt care for it. The "leadership" decided that is where we were going to be. What was good for them would eventually become good for us. Well its now been almost 1 year from release and I for one still dont care for the aggressiveness and immaturity of a straight pvp server. I personnaly feel that the aggressiveness and spirit of the server is very influential on the atmosphere and spirit of our guild.

I know many of us are 60 now and the all important thing is high end instance runs. Well some of us do not truly care for them. I know some may think well if you dont do them you cant get decent armor...for many of us..who cares? Im not in this game so my character can look cool. Im in this game cause I like the fellowship. I had more fun last night on emerald dream with a small group of low lvl guildies then ive ever had on a raid.

As for no one being able to see why others feel shunned let me give you an example that I know Ruth was hesitant to mention so as to not drag anyone into it. I have logged into stonemaul many many times over that last 2-3 weeks to check mail and just see who's on and whats up. I have had odale say hi to me and bannard once during that time. Yesterday there were 15 people online and I had 1 member say hi to me. Being I didnt recognize the name i asked him who was his main only to learn this character was his main and I had never even met him before but yet he cared enough to say hi when he saw my name appear on the screen. Now you may think this is of little importance but to me it isnt. People can be a number in any guild in the game. Do people know we are special by the name over our heads when they see us? No what catches their attention is the bonds we have with one another. As I have stated many times in the past people dont join christian guilds just because they are christian. They join because they want fellowship with other christians. I am not the only one who has once again noticed this trend...Bledie has completley stopped playing Stonemaul for this reason and a few others have also shared with me they have been experiencing the same thing.

I know there are a couple people upset with me for starting the new guild on Emerald Dream. Ive even had 1 person who hasnt spoken to me in months tell someone else they feel I lied to them because back in May I said I wasnt going to start another guild cause they felt it would divide redeemed. But they need to remember I said I wouldnt as long as the problems were dealt with and things turned for the better. Which they did for all about 1 month. As for seeking leaderships permission I went to my "head" and he gave me complete support feeling also this needs to be done. I also had the support and urging from many members who felt this was a needed addition to the Redeemed guild offering. I dont see what the problem is. Starting a guild on the horde server was resisted at first by this same person and again I expressed its better to have people with that interest still be a part of us in some way then leave all together. Has that guild caused division? Is redeemed history because of it? No and as long as problems are corrected and people put away their pride and work to improve things it won't.

As for taking a new position now being offered that I have finally decided to take initiative and improve things in a way I feel led to I just cannot at this time. The Lord is blessing what we have on emerald dream. We do not have this strife there. The server is 100% more mature then stonemaul. It is a perfect place for casual gamers who just want to fellowship and have fun. It supports those of us who like to roleplay. I personally feel what is needed is not 1 big guild trying to cater to many different playstyles but rather an alliance of guilds each meeting players needs at the most basic level. Just before Bannard had put in his final resignation a few of us met and discussed ideas Bannard could use to take the load off of himself and still meet peoples needs. He wasnt there but his wife had initiated the meeting requesting this. The Lord laid it on my heart to mention how Moses handled leading thousands of people who were disgruntled. What he did was form these people into tribes based on their way of doing things. Then he set leaders over these tribes. I explained that in our guild this would be a way for redeemed to meet everyones needs. Each tribe could have their own chat channel and we could use the guild channel as the "whole land" chat. A tribe for pvp could be set up, one for roleplaying, one for raiding, one for casual gamers, one for families..whatever the guild felt they needed. and people could move from tribe to tribe depending on their goals at the time. Needless to say again my idea went no further. So I am very bothered when people say others have not tried to help because others have many many times, but when it seems to fall on deaf ears people eventually realize their help is not wanted or needed or received so they stop bothering.

My hearts desire is to be a healthy branch of what we have with redeemed and Mustard seed conspiracy. I didnt set up the His website on Toj because I wanted to see first whether the new guild would be shunned or embraced by those in this organization we have. 2. Because I'm not really sure what I need to do to have it set up. and 3. the place that is hosting it offered a ton of useful easy to customize options. I do not intend for HIS to be any sort of "competition " to redeemed. I am willing to offer help and advise when I can but can no longer wait in the wings hoping things will change. I cannot sit by idly while members I have served for many years from previous games express their desire to have back what we had in daoc thus the birth of HIS. To meet those needs without having to watch people fall away to non christian guilds.

As I said before being the guild leader of any guild is not easy.It takes a lot of time, patience and persistance. You have have to deal with dissatisfied and hurt people. You have to make tough decisions for the protection and improvement of the guild in whole. To earn the respect of those you are leading you have to be able to acknowledge how they feel even if it hurts you or you dont agree and you have to be willing to do what needs to be done. You did your best Bannard and like I said before I commend you. Do not take it as all your fault that some arent happy. Its not easy to lead a guild as diverse as Redeemed especially on the type of server it is on.

 

[Boazz]

Awesome post Jaz.

This may sound a bit silly to some but one of the best memories I have of Redeemed Is when when Russel ( Bowser ) once Invited a bunch of us low level guildies on a journey through the wetlands to ....Arathi highlands I think it was.. lol It must have looked so crazy to this Horde that watched this 30ish pally taking all these very low level guildies on a hike down this path and getting agro from everything remotly close. Well the horde attacked us and here come Russel to the rescue. Most of us died and I think Russel may have also Im not sure. Anyway what I am trying to say is that It was so cool of Russ to take time to bring us all together just to laugh and cut-up.

I really miss that kind of stuff. Now Redeemed is mostly about raids and high end content which Is cool because I like to be part of that when I can but it seems Redeemed Is a more serious type guild and the focus Is all on Content and not as much on felloship.

I my self play on Stonemaul and Emerald dream.

1. Stonemaul for my friends that are there and the High end content that I like to be a part of. ( I have been working so much that Ive had to put this side of me off because Instances take so long to complete)
2. Emerald dream for my friends that are there Including my wonderful wife ((((Ruthee)))) and the wonderful fellowship from some of the most awesome peeps around

Anyway, I just want to say that I love everyone on Stonemaul and hope they dont get upset that I may play a little more on Emerald dream because of the fellowship I dont see as much on Stonemaul.

( Please dont laugh at the miss spelled words, I get that at home )

 

[kraniac]

I can't speak for everybody, but if you feel in any way disparaged because you play on Emerald Dream, I would bet that it wasn't intentional. I don't know of any ill-will existing among the people on Stonemaul towards the people on Emerald Dream, and if the leadership of Redeemed ever found out about anything like that, they would try to squash it. Again, if you would provide those you feel have wronged you, with specific examples of how they can improve, I think we could all get along. I think part of the problem I have with empathizing with your situation, stems from the fact that I don't see any of the malcontent you allege. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but you *have* to give people specific ways to change.

4) As for taking on a position and you being happy and others being happy about it that disagree with me in regards to the validity of this post, I seriously doubt it would go on without a hitch. I'm not about to put myself in a position to be gossiped about, setup for a lose/lose situation since there is apparently already hostilities and ill will against what I've stated reflected in some of these posts. Thus, I'm sure my support would be very slim from the guild and leadership after word got around about me.

You have a preconceived notion that you would fail, but you haven't tried yet. Citing hypothetical mistreatment isn't what I was after.

If anything I said was harsh, I didn't mean it to offend or hurt feelings. I'm just trying to communicate that often people do things that rub other people the wrong way not because they intend to harm, but because they haven't realized that someone else took offense.

If you tell the people who are bothering you exactly what has hurt you, it may hurt their feelings, but the hurt of them realizing they've wronged you is necessary in restoring the good relationship you had before.

For instance, I have a certain idiosyncrasy that I tap my toothbrush on the side of the sink when I'm done using it. I don't really know why I do it, but I do it out of habit. When my sister informed me that she could hear it all the way out in the living room and that it really annoyed her, it hurt me to know that I was bothering her. However, that hurt was necessary, and actually promoted a better relationship with my sister, because now I know not to tap my toothbrush on the sink anymore (or at least not so hard ).

I guess what I mean is, be a little more assertive and proactive if people have wronged you. You have to stop feeling victimized and start to do something about it and go to people that have bothered you.

 

[Bowser]

Wow. Lots of emotion here.

For one, I'd like to say that I'm very upset with all my friends leaving to join another guild on Emerald Dream. I miss you guys, I really really do, so it's not easy to see the friends that I have spent hours in prayer for leave me. Another thing I'm upset with is this; if you see a problem in Redeemed then you address it. You don't simply leave. You work your tails off to better the guild that you supposedly love. I worked very hard for months trying to get the guild started, and have spent many hours talking privately with each and every one of the guild members (back when I was still the leader of it, before my break). Even before the game released I worked tirelessly on the forums and website, and also posting on other websites and emailing potential members. I rarely got a positive response from either forums or through PMs or e-mail, but I kept at it to try to make the guild what I wanted it to be. Even then, the guild has never even been close to what I've dreamed of it being, and that's only because the rest of the work falls on the members. A person who dedicated WoW guild leadership to being a full-time job of their own can't even do a good enough job (or, at least, what I feel is a good job, because my goals for the guild are set so high), and so I've learned that a lot of the responsibilities rest on the member's shoulders, who I feel should be lead to volunteer in the guild, instead of waiting to be asked.

Please understand, I love you guys tremendously. I've called many of you over the phone before, and I've invited most of you (who still exist from Illidan) to join the CGA Convention that was taking place that year. I've spent, as I said before, many hours praying for each and every one of you, and have spent many more talking with you. Hopefully you haven't forgotten this; you guys are very, very close to my heart.

I was very disappointed when I heard that a new guild was forming on Emerald Dream. Not because I don't promote spreading Christianity, but because I felt my friends were leaving me. In fact, some of you who have joined the guild on Emerald Dream have even left our guild on Stonemaul. That really hurts me guys. I'm not sure I can express how much pain I felt when I noticed that Deborrah, Bledie, Tenacity, Boazz, Landron, Olgan, and many, many other of whom had become my close friends not logging on after many days after HIS was created.

I've also felt I've been lied to. I was told HIS was just a "vacation" server, for people to go to and relax, and to just get a break from the PVP on Stonemaul. Wow. It really hurt when I saw that this "vacation" server had its own website (using another webhost btw), its own forums (which were also separate from ToJ), and that I hadn't seen my friends who I had mentioned above in that time since it was created, Deborrah included. Did you know that no one told me about any of this business about HIS? I only found out about it on the forums. I mean, not only were my close friends and fellow Christians moving, it felt like they were abandoning me. I really thought I had more of an impact on my friends than that. I thought they would at least message me and talk with me about it, or at least tell me about this new guild on Emerald Dream.

At the moment of posting this I'm not angry with anyone or anyone's decisions, so please don't read anger into it. Instead, I feel like things are left unresolved, and I would like to desperately try to work them out.

Love in Christ,

-Lee

(edit: btw - sorry for the late response, I've really been trying to spend less time on the computer lately and spend time doing more productive things.. so please forgive me if it seems like I've been ignoring PMs, the forums, e-mails, or just haven't been my usual talkative self.)

(edit2: Also, please don't feel I am trying to defend and uphold Redeemed over any other Christian guild. I realize a few things which I believe are problems that we have in our guild on Stonemaul, one of which I feel is a lack of fellowship. However, I strongly feel that we all need to try to stay and work to better it. I don't have a problem with having a vacation server for other people to play on, but I did, and still do, have a problem with how it was went about. For one, the person who cares so much for you guys I feel should have been informed about it; me. For two, I would like for it to remain in ToJ, even it "splits", so to speak, from Redeemed.)

 

[Avesther]

Fellowship.

An interesting word. Used often by many people in this thread. I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that everybody sees fellowship as having a different meaning. While its been tossed out in the arena dozens of times, nobody has actually spent the time required to throw what it means to them behind it.

Fellowship means to me, spending time with family, freinds and comrades in the spirit of a commonality. That commonality can be anything, whether WoW, Christ or the hockey game.

Now, if you are going to say, there wasn't enough fellowship, what do you mean by that? It is, at best, a vague accusation which means many different things to many different people.

 

[Bowser]

Fellowship in Christ is what I'm looking for.