Christian Game Developers Conference 2008

[Glitch]

Eh, I don't know if I really buy that. Just look at the OT, it was pretty bloody and violent. How you would work that into a game though...that would be tricky.

Hey, it all depends on your setting. I think the underlying problem here is that you, as a Christian, would have to be willing to admit that God sanctioned wars, etc and that would definitely upset some Christians.

I have a similar view to you... I am just taking the antagonistic viewpoint here. Especially in the area in which I am in now... I have seen a lot of uptight "Christians".
(side note as an example) I was just talking with my pastor two days ago saying that Jesus himself couldn't be the pastor of our church, because he hung out with tax collectors, adulterers, etc. (I am not "socially" accepted in my church fully because i do hang out with, befriend, and witness to people that wouldn't be socially accepted by some of the more uptight church going people).
I have no problem with war video games. If i see a way in which my video games are a problem to play, well then i stop playing them. That has only happened a couple times in the games i've played.
I'm just a guy who is frustrated by the "church folk" of what I have seen in my lifetime who try and confine their children and all Christians inside their "christian bubbles". It is just a place that has always made me frustrated.
Now in all that i said, I meant it for the purpose of explaining that if a game is labeled as Christian, you will have the parents of some kids getting mad that there would be fighting in a game. If we went with Tek's idea of having Christian themes, stories (even Biblical stories), or something like that, then...

If that is possible... and if it was a good game. I would play it. If the designer wasn't afraid of offending people, If the designer wasn't afraid of offering the hard truth of what has to happen in life sometimes... well... that would be a great game.

I would fully support a game in which was enjoyable and I didn't have to worry about the content.

Does this make sense? I don't feel that i'm explaining myself well.

 

[rizz]

Wow, this is what happens when i dont check a thread for 2 days...

 

[Tek7]

Now in all that i said, I meant it for the purpose of explaining that if a game is labeled as Christian, you will have the parents of some kids getting mad that there would be fighting in a game.

Christian game developers wouldn't necessarily need to concern themselves with making a game that's "kid-friendly," though. If the ESA is right and the average gamer is 35 years old and has been playing games for 13 years, maybe it's time a developer, Christian or secular, takes a chance and builds a game around a more mature story.

And I mean "mature" in its true sense, not the "You can get your money back if you beat that hooker" Grand Theft Auto sense. Organized crime and prostitution don't make for a mature story; they just make sure the game is rated Mature. Final Fantasy VI does a far better job of delivering a mature story than any entry in the GTA series.

The idea that Christian writers are somehow incapable of writing mature stories for adults is absurd, especially considering that many literary classics were written by Christians.

If we went with Tek's idea of having Christian themes, stories (even Biblical stories), or something like that, then...

There is a plethora of terrific stories in the Old Testament that could serve as inspiration for games.

I've enjoyed reading the OT for its stories for as long as I can remember. Many, if not all, are timeless: Moses' frustration with the people of Israel, Gideon's request for proof of God's direction, Solomon's weakness for foreign and mysterious women, David's grief in facing his son as a military opponent, Elijah's struggle with depression, Jonah's anger rooted in nationalism, Rahab's choice of greater right over duty to her people--the list goes on. Any of these would make for great inspiration for RPG characters, if done well.

I keep focusing on RPGs because role-playing is the genre best suited to telling a story and delivering a message. A first-person shooter can have a good story (like Half-Life 2: Episode 2), but doesn't have to (like Doom and Doom II).

Other genres can feature stories, but most don't engross the player in the story. Nanostray 2, a shmup for the Nintendo DS, may have a story, but the player is only reminded of the story between stages. The same is often true of platform games like Megaman. In a RPG, the player is much more likely to be aware of his or her character's place in the story at any given time.

On a related note, I understand it's unlikely that we'll see a Christian game development studio create a game geared toward adult gamers. A far more realistic scenario is for Christian employees at a secular company (I'm thinking of BioWare) to write a story or otherwise build a game that promotes Christian principles and themes.

 

[Dark Virtue]

On a related note, I understand it's unlikely that we'll see a Christian game development studio create a game geared toward adult gamers. A far more realistic scenario is for Christian employees at a secular company (I'm thinking of BioWare) to write a story or otherwise build a game that promotes Christian principles and themes.

Sorry, but this makes no sense whatsoever. A secular company would NEVER produce a game the promoted religious principles and themes.

Why? Money. If you target Christian gamers (remembering that Christianity is the largest slice of the religious pie) you'll still only be targeting 33% of your audience. It just doesn't make sense from a financial point of view.

Why is it so difficult for Christian game developers to get a good project going?

 

[Tek7]

Sorry, but this makes no sense whatsoever. A secular company would NEVER produce a game the promoted religious principles and themes.

Why? Money. If you target Christian gamers (remembering that Christianity is the largest slice of the religious pie) you'll still only be targeting 33% of your audience. It just doesn't make sense from a financial point of view.

The sales records for The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe would seem to indicate otherwise. The film was based on an obviously Christian book and didn't dumb down those themes for the screenplay. It's reasonable to believe that a Christian writer at a secular game company could write a solid story promoting Christian values and themes and have it approved by management.

 

[Hescominsoon]

The sales records for The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe would seem to indicate otherwise. The film was based on an obviously Christian book and didn't dumb down those themes for the screenplay. It's reasonable to believe that a Christian writer at a secular game company could write a solid story promoting Christian values and themes and have it approved by management.

It's even more interesting that the most blatant atheistic work was the golden compass. it was panned by Christians and secular alike and the author even said he has to tone down the message because he knew it would not go over well. Turns out even the toned down version flopped. The Christian block is much larger than DV or other Atheists wish to admit.

 

[Dark Virtue]

The sales records for The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe would seem to indicate otherwise. The film was based on an obviously Christian book and didn't dumb down those themes for the screenplay. It's reasonable to believe that a Christian writer at a secular game company could write a solid story promoting Christian values and themes and have it approved by management.

Different media...we're not talking about movies, we're talking about computer games.

And from a secular point of view, the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe isn't as overtly Christian as Christians like to believe, especially the movie adaptation.

 

[Dark Virtue]

It's even more interesting that the most blatant atheistic work was the golden compass. it was panned by Christians and secular alike and the author even said he has to tone down the message because he knew it would not go over well. Turns out even the toned down version flopped. The Christian block is much larger than DV or other Atheists wish to admit.

That movie was definitely a flop...which was too bad because the book was pretty good. But seriously, this can be said of most movies. The movie was a flop not because Pulman had to tone down atheist overtones, but because it was a generally bad adaptation. I didn't, and still don't, understand the problem Christians had with the idea of the Golden Compass. The "atheist overtones" really didn't take shape until the subsequent books. I think it was more the IDEA of an atheist trying to use the medium that was upsetting.

I'm also not sure where you get the idea that I, personally, fail to admit that the Christan block isn't large. I've never said anything to support that accusation...in fact, everything that I say actually supports that. I'd be living in a dream world if I didn't acknowledge the fact that I live in a Christian-heavy society and that, as an atheist, I am definitely a minority. That actually is what interests me about this thread. If there's such a large Christian base out there, why are Christian game developers having such a hard time? Where are there no blockbuster Christian games that are on par with The Passion of the Christ at the theaters?

(Oh, and if you want to discuss Vox, feel free to start a new thread, I don't want to derail this one.)

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

Different media...we're not talking about movies, we're talking about computer games.

There are games based on The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. http://www.gamespot.com/search.html...he+Lion,+The+Witch+and+The+Wardrobe&x=36&y=17 probably all horrible cash in flops but then I wouldn't know because its extremely rare (hmm rare = Goldeneye, get it, lol... well ok nvm) for me to play movie based games because they are horrible.

And from a secular point of view, the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe isn't as overtly Christian as Christians like to believe, especially the movie adaptation.

That's why when I was 8~12 years old I read the book and thought Aslan was Jesus even though I hadn't read though the Bible at that time. If I, with my merger understanding of the Bible then, can get it I'd imagine the idea of a loving, sacrificial, God would not be lost on all secular people. That concept alone is largely foreign in media awash with non-Christian views.

 

[Stc95]

They're aren't any good Christian games out there because
1) Most Christians are off doing other things. God has called people to do different things. Some are out on missions, others are on the streets helping the homeless.
2) Most "Christians" aren't followers of Christ. Meaning that they say they are Christians, but don't shine their light. They may go to church, but as soon as they leave the building they follow their sin nature. Its that Faith without deeds sort of thing.
3) As with #1 most Christian gamers probably do it "part time" because they out doing God's work not online.

That all being said the 33% of Christians who game... how many of them use it as a ministry? How many of them are the "hardcore" gamer type? And most importantly, how many of them are really Christians??

I'm taking a guess but out of the 33% who are Christian gamers, I would take a guess that only about 10% truly love God with all their heart and/or use it as a ministry and/or are hardcore gamers.

Another thing is that 33% of the Christian gamers don't care what they play. There are a lot of kids and adults out there that are "Christians" but don't have a care about what they see. Yea a little blood and gore could be alright, but most of us at CGA draw the line when it comes to nudity or suggestive themes. But a lot of those 33% don't. Either they A) Ignore it B) Use the game as an excuse to satisfy their lust or C) they don't care.

That means that the majority of the 33% of Christian gamers would not buy the game where there is no killing and is "not fun" because they don't care. Most don't care about blood/violence/nudity and all that stuff. So there is no reason to make a good Christian game because its so much easier to make a secular game that will appeal to everyone INCLUDING the Christians. The minority of hardcore Christians gamers actually care what we do.

Now I'm not trying to bash anyone. Please don't think that I'm saying that those other guys are dumb or not as holy as I am. That's not what I'm going for, cause I know that we all are sinners and we all make mistakes and none of us are perfect. And just because they play a game like GTA does not make them fake Christians. Just understand what I'm saying when a lot of people say they are Christians, but aren't. Today in the U.S there are only about 23% of people who are Bible believing Christians. In the next generation it will be 4%.

So I guess the main thing is that people lie about who and what they are.

I think we, the Christian gamers, will get a good Christian game when we start saying what we want in a game and when we start demanding it. Because like you said, there is a huge player base out there, and if someone got lucky, they could make a lot of money from it. I think for right now the trick is to make games that are lightly hinting at Christian values. Things like Narnia and LOTR. Use simple themes that any and all Christians would get, but light enough that the secular world could either look over it, or find it and plant a seed.

And secular companies don't really have a problem with Christian things. If they can make money off it they will. Look at the music industry, (yes I know its different) they have a lot of Christian songs/artists that play on secular radio stations. I remember listening to a radio station when I was younger and hearing Kutless' song Sea of Faces, which has the lyrics "Your body's the bread, your blood is of wine... cause you gave your life for mine." Jesus anyone?? and POD is a Christian band, but they rejected Christian sponsors and record deals because they wanted to be in the secular world.

Anyways.. I kinda lost my train of thought.. hopefully some of that will make sense. I just got back from vacation and this just kinda poured out. I really don't know what I was saying or where I was going with anything.. so... yea.. JESUS!!

~Stc

Wow, this is what happens when i don't check a thread for 2 days...

Try 5

 

[ppar3566]

And from a secular point of view, the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe isn't as overtly Christian as Christians like to believe, especially the movie adaptation.

I agree it is not overtly as Christian as many make out. However I don't think that is the point. What it did do was create as emotional attachement or realness to the idea of a powerful figure willingly sacrificing all for the life of a traitor. I think this is where Tek is coming from. I even see games like Bioshock as carrying a somewhat Christian subtext or conflict. In that, the player must decide what is more important, holding on to the life of a child and losing the chance for power despite the fact that no one would likely know any better or would punish the person for it. In this way i am with Tek in that mainstream games media are a platform where potential developers could carry such messages. In this case it would not be appealing simply to a section of the public but could be more mainstream yet still promote ethical conflicts and ideas, thus encouraging individuals to think.

Slightly off track, I commented to one person who was concerned that GW may have been promoting wrong things, that in essence most MMO and other mainstream games carry no (or a very shallow) sub text. I think it is in the interests of game media to explore pushing more meaningful games in what ever shape they come. I find companies that simply make money without any thought to putting across a social justice message more immoral than those who put across messages we may not agree with. Anyway my random thoughts.

 

[Dark Virtue]

What it did do was create as emotional attachement or realness to the idea of an powerful figure willingly sacrificing all for the life of a traitor.

You can't call this a uniquely Christian theme though...you see this in other religions as well as myths and stories around the world.

I understand the CS Lewis was a Christian, but taken objectively, the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe doesn't include anything that labels it decidedly Christian.

EDIT: Just want to clarify I'm talking about the movie and video game, not necessarily the book.

 

[ppar3566]

You can't call this a uniquely Christian theme though...you see this in other religions as well as myths and stories around the world.

I understand the CS Lewis was a Christian, but taken objectively, the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe doesn't include anything that labels it decidedly Christian.

EDIT: Just want to clarify I'm talking about the movie and video game, not necessarily the book.

That is the point. The idea is to get across virtues that we believe in that make the gospel message, when delivered by you or me more meaningful. I see games as a possible avenue to create a context in which we can relate the story of Christ. They need not be unique Chrisitan, just on the same page.

 

[Dark Virtue]

That is the point. The idea is to get across virtues that we believe in that make the gospel message, when delivered by you or me more meaningful. I see games as a possible avenue to create a context in which we can relate the story of Christ. They need not be unique Chrisitan, just on the same page.

I honestly don't understand that line of thinking.

If you're a Christian, why would you want a Christian game developer to create a game that hid Christ? You can't relate the story of Christ without Christ! See Matt 5:14-16

Once you remove Christ from the picture, what virtues do you have that are uniquely Christian? Take the "Golden Rule" for example. That's not a uniquely Christian concept, nor, as I've shown in the past, is it a concept that was created by Christianity.

Guess I'll have to do more research on the Christian game industry.

 

[cc.slim]

Because some despise something that denotes spiritualism! Not easy speaking in a language that refers yet can be con screwed as not religious!

 

[ppar3566]

I honestly don't understand that line of thinking.

I suppose what Im trying to say is that people generally do not make rational and logical conclusion about important events in their life. As bioethisist Tom Shakespear puts it "if you tell someone that their smoking is likely to result in a 80% increased risk of dying in their 50s they will inevitable respond with the story of how uncle Tom smoked 30 a day and lived till he was 90".

People generally respond to a storied context they do not weigh and test facts. This is a long way of getting around to me not saying that Christian game developers should hide Christ, rather by producing a sub-text rich in the important aspects of the gospel in a compleing and inviting format (i.e. Lord of the Rings, Narnia, etc) you provide a storied context in which to explore with others the gospel message in a way that is more in keeping with the way people process information.


On a side note I know that many other religions share various similarities with Christianity. We can discuss what that means for the claim that Christianity uniquely reflects the truth in another context if interested. The point here however, is that these generalist themes can be used to promote the case for Christ in a format that is accessible to most.

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

I honestly don't understand that line of thinking.

If you're a Christian, why would you want a Christian game developer to create a game that hid Christ? You can't relate the story of Christ without Christ! See Matt 5:14-16...

A Christian's job is much more than solely relating the story of Christ. To directly quote the verse from which the great commission is taken Mathew 27: 19, 20...

019: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
020: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Ergo everything Christ commanded is a valid subject for a Christian to teach (and since Jesus validates the old testament it can be taught too). Salvation though Jesus is the core doctrine of Christianity but it isn't the only one. Furthermore no one is talking about "hiding" Christ, talking about a subject other than Christ is not "hiding" him. What about the idea of a singular God, mankind being flawed and unable to correct himself, the law, prophecy past and future, these things need to be talked about somewhere. If we never talked about Christ then it would be a big problem but by and large the problem today is churches/Christians teaching salvation but NOT anything else, there is no condemnation of sin (examples that need to be talked about adultery, divorce, homosexuality, etc.).

...Once you remove Christ from the picture, what virtues do you have that are uniquely Christian? Take the "Golden Rule" for example. That's not a uniquely Christian concept, nor, as I've shown in the past, is it a concept that was created by Christianity.

Yes you've already said this and my response then and now is the golden rule may be shared with other faiths but it is not the central commandment Christ gave Matthew 22:37-40...

37. Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38. This is the first and great commandment. 39. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

If you are going to limit the moral taught within the game to one chances are you are going to find another faith that agrees with it, but the more you add the more uniquely Christian it becomes. Also just having Christ in a game doesn't make it Christian either if Christ is not correctly defined in the context of who he is (example there are all inclusive people who belive in Christ and Buddha).