Cavinism

[mrpopdrinker]

1: The best evidences I can give you are ezekial 18 which talks of God not wanting sinners to die but live, and John 3:16 which says he let his only son die so that all men can come to the father.
2: Lets see it says for the world so that meens he gave his son for everyone and not the "chosen". I believe that I chose God on my I own because he died to set me free.
3: I think it does.
T: We are born in sin and cannot stop sinning although any man can do good. We have a empty spiritual vaccume and yearn to know a creator.
U: God's Son died so that all may come to him and know him as Lord. (John 3:16)
I will finish tomorrow.

 

[LionOfJudah]

Well with predistination God knows all your choices so it doesnt matter in a sense, BUT God can not be part of anything that is not Pure and Holy, which 99.9999999999% of all mans decission no matter what he says is usually unpure and or Unholy so God could not of made you choose them because that would mean he made you choose sin which is totally against His nature

 

[Miscellaneous]

Thaddius:
But that argues for free will. your saying if God calls us and we do not listen then we are damned. The choice to answer the call is still ours. I believe we all were predestined, yet only some of us chose to answer. Is that what you are stating Misc? (please clarify if I am misinturpreting you.)

There are two types of calling I believe. Ineffectual, and effectual. The first is the general to all men as is put forth in Scripture. Telling all men to believe. Witnessing and so forth. The second is the effectual calling of the Holy Spirit ensuring our salvation and redeeming us to believe. (see irresistable grace above)
The choice is ours, yes. However, our choices are predestined as well, and conditioned by our desires. I tried to explain that above, showing that we do have a choice, but are still predestined. Our choices were simply predestined.

We were all predestined, yes. However, we could not be all predestined to heaven and then some refuse to go. This contradicts the definition of predestination -- which is setting our destiny beforehand. Some were predestined to heaven, some were predestined for reprobation.

Read that massive amount of information above. It'll help.

 

[LionOfJudah]

except that both sides of the argument can twist the scripture to read what they want it too....

 

[Miscellaneous]

Mrpopdrinker:
"The best evidences I can give you are ezekial 18 which talks of God not wanting sinners to die but live, and John 3:16 which says he let his only son die so that all men can come to the father."

Me:
Can you give me an exact Scripture on Ezekial 18? I'm fairly certain that I know which one you are speaking of, but I don't want to assume.

John 3:16 does not say what you just said it did.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life"

Once again, the question is *who* believes in the Son?

Mrpopdrinker:
2: Lets see it says for the world so that meens he gave his son for everyone and not the "chosen". I believe that I chose God on my I own because he died to set me free.

Me:
"The World" or "All men" is used constantly throughout Scripture to show not literally every single person in the world, but unconfinement (can't think of a better word). They are both used numerous times to show that the passage is not just talking about "jews" or "greeks" but men of all nations. I'll be glad to find numerous accounts if you desire.

You chose God because he drew you to Him. Christ died to set you free from sin -- from the captivity of sin. Christ died to redeem the elect from the state of Total depravity that all men are in. (see above: Total depravity, unconditional election, irresistable grace, limited attonement)

Mrpopdrinker:
"T: We are born in sin and cannot stop sinning although any man can do good. We have a empty spiritual vaccume and yearn to know a creator"

Me:
Please prove to me that "any man can do good," for I disagree. Also please see Total depravity above. Please read my posts too. I read yours.

Mrpopdrinker:
"U: God's Son died so that all may come to him and know him as Lord. (John 3:16)"

Me:
That passage doesn't say that.

 

[Miscellaneous]

LionofJudah:
"Well with predistination God knows all your choices so it doesnt matter in a sense, BUT God can not be part of anything that is not Pure and Holy, which 99.9999999999% of all mans decission no matter what he says is usually unpure and or Unholy so God could not of made you choose them because that would mean he made you choose sin which is totally against His nature."

Me:
Please read my posts above. Also, our natural state is against God. We are born into Adam's sin. God doesn't have to make us choose sin in the sense that you are saying. It is our natural inclination.

 

[Miscellaneous]

LionofJudah:
"except that both sides of the argument can twist the scripture to read what they want it too...."

Me:
Cmon man. Am I twisting scripture? Did you read my posts above? Show me where I have twisted Scripture.

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Quote[/b] ]Mrpopdrinker:
"U: God's Son died so that all may come to him and know him as Lord. (John 3:16)"

Me:
That passage doesn't say that.

Yes it does. It says for God so loved the world
To number 1 Yes it does say that. I dident quote scripture I just said what it meens. I will go into this more tomorrow. Untill then remember never say to a unbeliever you cant go to heaven because you are not chosen.

 

[Miscellaneous]

I hate it when people do not read my posts.

Sorry but I'm no longer responding to mrpopdrinker anymore, until I see sign that he started reading my posts.

To the reader, just read the entire thread please.

If anyone else wants to debate, I'll respond to you.

 

[LionOfJudah]

it is exceeding long maybe instead of quoting a million and one scriptures you sum it up.. and list the scripture referrence

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Quote[/b] (LionOfJudah @ Oct. 13 2003,9:03)]it is exceeding long maybe instead of quoting a million and one scriptures you sum it up.. and list the scripture referrence

I agree with LOJ. I am very tired today and am not going to sit and read two pages of a defense for somthing.

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Quote[/b] ]Me:
Please prove to me that "any man can do good," for I disagree. Also please see Total depravity above. Please read my posts too. I read yours.

Ok. Hey Timor Medjai BigJ you guys I think would fall under the "any man" catagory. Please tell us the last time you did somthing good. I can tell you now BigJ gave Medjai his best when we found out what he was going through. So I think that is good and an act of goodwill.

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] (mrpopdrinker @ Oct. 13 2003,8:31)]

Quote[/b] ]Me:
Please prove to me that "any man can do good," for I disagree.  Also please see Total depravity above.  Please read my posts too.  I read yours.

Ok. Hey Timor Medjai BigJ you guys I think would fall under the "any man" catagory. Please tell us the last time you did somthing good. I can tell you now BigJ gave Medjai his best when we found out what he was going through. So I think that is good and an act of goodwill.

Well, would you like me to start with how I help disabled students? Tutor at risk school children?

I don't have much money right now, so I cannot contribute money to causes (made a few...ok a lot of bad choices...but anyway).

I am the person that is always there...the stranger that helps you up when you trip and picks up your stuff for you. I'm also the person that hands you the $20 you drop.

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Quote[/b] (Big J @ Oct. 14 2003,2:05)]

Quote[/b] (mrpopdrinker @ Oct. 13 2003,8:31)]

Quote[/b] ]Me:
Please prove to me that "any man can do good," for I disagree.  Also please see Total depravity above.  Please read my posts too.  I read yours.

Ok. Hey Timor Medjai BigJ you guys I think would fall under the "any man" catagory. Please tell us the last time you did somthing good. I can tell you now BigJ gave Medjai his best when we found out what he was going through. So I think that is good and an act of goodwill.

Well, would you like me to start with how I help disabled students?  Tutor at risk school children?

I don't have much money right now, so I cannot contribute money to causes (made a few...ok a lot of bad choices...but anyway).

I am the person that is always there...the stranger that helps you up when you trip and picks up your stuff for you.  I'm also the person that hands you the $20 you drop.

Thank you BigJ. Well it looks like half of the total depravity doctine has just been proven false.

 

[LionOfJudah]

but why do you do these things, to make your self feel better or to help someone or to be a servant, you can say i do it because i am good, but in reality you could be doing it so that people see you and say wow he is a great guy and be seeking that kind of position

 

[Kidan]

the doctrine of Total Depravity does not mean you can't or won't do good.

It means that you are a sinner. Pure and simple.

It means that you are not worthy of admittance to Heaven. For no matter how many good works you do, you still have sin in your life.

This is where Christ is so important. Christ gave Himself up as the perfect sacrifice to cover all of your sins. So that you can go from total depravity to total sanctification.

likewise once you have become totally sanctified, does not mean that you will always do good, but rather the sin in your life has been washed away by the blood of Christ.

 

[mrpopdrinker]

If what you are saying is true Kidan then he is misinterperating his own doctrine.

 

[Kidan]

Quote[/b] (mrpopdrinker @ Oct. 14 2003,10:00)]If what you are saying is true Kidan then he is misinterperating his own doctrine.

uhm...i truly don't know. since I was out of town, i didn't read this thread from the beginning, just the last page, and saw a question on the Doctrine of Total Depravity. Since that is a doctrine that my church holds, I did study into it, and exactly what it contains and means.

 

[mrpopdrinker]

He said "Me:
Please prove to me that "any man can do good," for I disagree. Also please see Total depravity above. Please read my posts too. I read yours."
I say any man can do good. He said prove it so I asked BigJ and the others to say the last time they did somthing good.

 

[Miscellaneous]

Mrpopdrinker, Paul would disagree with you:

Romans
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better[2] ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
  "There is no one righteous, not even one;
       11there is no one who understands,
      no one who seeks God.
   12All have turned away,
      they have together become worthless;
  there is no one who does good,
      not even one."[3]
   13"Their throats are open graves;
      their tongues practice deceit."[4]
  "The poison of vipers is on their lips."[5]
       14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[6]
   15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
       16ruin and misery mark their ways,
   17and the way of peace they do not know."[7]
       18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."[8]
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Romans 7
17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[1] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing

To understand the nature of good things, we must look at it through the Gospel.  Nonbelievers do things that seem to be pleasing, but in the eyes of God, they are NOT good.  To go back to worldviews, we can see that there are the nonbeliever's and the believer's.  The believer's is in light of the creater/creature distinction, to where all that he does is in view of him being under the sovereign LORD, where as the nonbeliever's worldview trys to put him in the position of lord.  Therefore the nonbeliever and the believer can both perform the same acts -- say walking an old lady across a street -- and the believer's will be a "good" act whereas the nonbeliever's will not.  

However, I must say that the reason that the believer has this creator/creature distinction is becuase it was put into him by God.  And the reason that a believer can do good, is because it is Christ within him who is doing good.  For we have died, and it is Christ who is alive in us.

Galatians 2
20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Have a nice day.