Cavinism

ahh. ok.

but what lion is saying is the reason behind they're doing good is selfish (to make them feel better, to impress people, etc. etc)  Which when you get down to it, is not that different than the reasons behind most Christians doing good.  No, the Doctrine of Total Depravity is literally this

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]We believe that our first parents were created in a state of innocence, but by their disobedience they lost their purity and happiness, and that in consequence of their fall all men have become sinners, totally depraved, and as such are justly exposed to the wrath of God.
Click to expand...

It doesn't concern the reasons behind doing good or bad, it's just all men have become sinners, and are justly exposed to God's punishment.  And truthfully, the human mind does think of self, it does try to do what feels best,  this is not to say people won't doing something nice, or good, it's just that they're sinners.
 
Romans seven I believe was saying that without God's help he cannot repent of whatever he is in bondage too.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Nonbelievers do things that seem to be pleasing, but in the eyes of God, they are NOT good.
Click to expand...
In the view of predestination God has no right to think like that because he wont allow them to be good.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (mrpopdrinker @ Oct. 14 2003,10:40)]In the view of predestination God has no right to think like that because he wont allow them to be good.
Click to expand...
What do you mean and how so?

Second, though I have no clue what you are talking about (please make it clearer), who are YOU to say what right God has?
 
Well if God only kept a few men to go to heaven then he has no right to say what is right and wrong because he would be unjust. My God is just and gives everyone equal opperatunity to accept his son Yeshua as Messiah.
If God will not allow you into heaven but he provided his son that is like saying go pick up a brick to somone who has no hands or feet. God is just and bound by his covenent with man he himself has defined what he has the right to do. God cannot lie. God cannot break his covenent. God cannot do evil.
 
I find it very interesting that whenever people dicusss predestination... they assume God is bound by time.

Could God know your 'predestination' simply because he has seen the end? Is our God not able to see multiple possibilities and determine your heart?

Can he not take those whose heart seeks after him and call them?

Be careful not to box God.  He wishes ALL to come to him... but knows that not ALL will....
 
I do not box God. Just because he sees what we do in our freewill doesent meen he controlls it. He may see what I will do but he does not determain it.
 
its funny you call him MY GOD and not God, that just implies that God is not the same.... today, yesterday, or tomarrow.

You may disagree with people, but know this with certianity, the God we worship is the same Lord and God over all.
 
Assuming you believe in predestination LOJ. I do not worship the same God as you. My God sends no one to hell and my God is just. Yours on the other hand is not.
 
God is God and i am not, He is the same today, tomarrow and yesterday

Then He ran to me took me in His arms held my head close to His chest and said " My sons come home again" Looked me in the eye and said "My son, my son do you know I still Love you" thats

God never changes and no matter what you think you worship the same God as Misc, just he see a different interperation of the scriptues
 
No I worship a different God. I would worship satan before I worshiped a god that says well it is your responsability to be saved but you cant be saved because I dident choose you on my list. My God is the same today yesterday tomorrow and forever. Just as Adam and Eve had the freewill to eat from the tree I and everyone else have the freewill to choose Yeshua Messiah as Lord and Saviour.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (LionOfJudah @ Oct. 14 2003,1:52)]its not God that changes but man interperatation
Click to expand...
The interperatation goes against everything God is. That is love, justice, grace and mercy. There is more but those are the basics.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ([TRiBForCe]Piet @ Oct. 14 2003,11:55)]I find it very interesting that whenever people dicusss predestination... they assume God is bound by time.

Could God know your 'predestination' simply because he has seen the end? Is our God not able to see multiple possibilities and determine your heart?

Can he not take those whose heart seeks after him and call them?

Be careful not to box God.  He wishes ALL to come to him... but knows that not ALL will....
Click to expand...
If God predestines something, the very grammar of that suggests that he set the destiny beforehand.

If God causes things to happen, that means that he actively causes them.

God knows the end because he predestines it.

Let's go into a little philosophy here:

Under the arminian perspective, God knows beforehand your destiny and then predestines you or something of that sort. He predesines based on foreknowledge. This is why God sends those to hell who have never heard of Jesus in foreign countrys and such. This view is flawed however. In order for God to predestine someone who lives in a country which never heard of Jesus based on foreknowledge a few things would have happened. God would have forseen that individual in a world in which he did hear the gospel and rejected it. And then God would have created a completely different world and judged the individual on his decision in another world. The problem with these worlds are that they are -different- worlds. Different outcomes happen in different worlds.
This argument is pointless because it is suggesting that God punishes in the actual world because of things that would have happened in a possible world.

----

you said here :
"Can he not take those whose heart seeks after him and call them?"

Me:
The problem is that NO ONE's heart seeks after God (Romans 3: 9-11). We are dead in sin and unable to (Ephesians 2). Sin is our master (John 8:34) and we are a slave to it (2 Peter 2:19). This is why we must be redeemed by God alone, because we are unable to do it ourselves. We have a heart of stone and God must give us a heart of flesh. (Ezekial 36:26) With this heart we will obey him because this heart was made to obey him. (Hebrews 10:16).

You said:
Be careful not to box God. He wishes ALL to come to him... but knows that not ALL will....

Me:
I'm sorry if this sounds a little rude, it's not meant to be. It's just that statements like this kinda bother me. I mean it with the most respect and love.

God is not some wooer. He is not battling satan to see who can get the most people. God is not some helpless being who sits back and says "I wish they'd all come, but I am completely helpless and they won't... Darn it, Satan will have more than me" He's God. His covenant is to redeem his people and that is what he is doing/is going to do/has done. Christ's death wasn't a wish to redeem people, in hopes that it wouldn't be void. It accomplished what it's purpose was. Christ laid his life down for his sheep (John 10:11, 15). It wasn't in hopes that maybe the sheep would follow him. The sheep will follow him (John 10:3,4,8,14,16,27). Christ taught that his death will accomplish what it's purpose was -- to redeem his people (the sheep). Not that his death would be a failure. To say that Christ died wishing that all would be saved but knowing that not all would be, is to say that Christ's blood isn't enough for atonement, and to say that Christ's death was a useless failure.
 
Mrpopdrinker, you constantly say that my God is not just and that you refuse to worship my God.  

My God is just.  My God takes his elect from the sin that they placed upon themselves and ensures salvation for them.  He does not dangle it offering it to them or giving them a chance to grab it knowing that they cannot.  He takes them forcefully and saves them.  We all deserve hell.  If God would save no one, He would still be just because we DESERVE damnation.

Further, he could do what he wanted with us because frankly we are the clay and He is the potter.  

Further, you constantly say that you do not serve "my God"  but claim to serve the God of the Bible -- the same one that I claim to serve -- yet have never opted to argue against my arguments taken from the Bible, describing the God that you claim to worship.  If you worship the God of the Bible and not the God I worship, then please don't just tell me that you disagree, and make statements like "I don't worship your God," but show me where I am wrong.  Teach me the God you worship and use Scripture, and show me where I am misinterpretting this Scripture.  If you cared for me, and you feel that I worship a completely different God than you, then you feel that I am going to hell.  Save me from this mrpopdrinker and present to me the gospel you claim to follow and show me how I am getting it wrong.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (LionOfJudah @ Oct. 14 2003,3:07)]Misc do you believe in all 5 points of Calvinsim?
Click to expand...
"I love to smell of TULIPs in the morning..."
biggrin.gif
 
Ok. I refer you again to John 3:16 which says he gave his son for the world and not the elect. The Ephisians argument as I have stated (or atleast i think I did) that God had a plan from the beginning. One may say that the letter was only addressed to the Ephesians but I say every word of the Bible is for all. Romans 8:29-30 is nothing more then a "parable" (for lack of a better word") That if you come to Yeshua he died for you and if God is for you who can be against you. Now Yeshua died for all and anyone can come by freewill. It is way of saying God did this for you as he did it for every individual and not a whole such as the elect. That is all I can say for now as my brother needs to get on soon and I still have a few more things to do.
 
mrpopdrinker:
"Ok. I refer you again to John 3:16 which says he gave his son for the world and not the elect."

me:
I have shown this argument to be false.  John 3:16 states
"For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."

The question here is "WHO will believe in the Son?"
This isn't an attack on Calvinism in the least.  

Mrpopdrinker:
"The Ephisians argument as I have stated (or atleast i think I did) that God had a plan from the beginning. One may say that the letter was only addressed to the Ephesians but I say every word of the Bible is for all."

Me:
The Ephesians 1: 4-6 says
"4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[1] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves."

You state that the verse is talking that God chose everyone, or predestined everyone for heaven.  I say that that is absurd.  If God set everyone's destiny beforehand to be blameless in his sight and to go to heaven, then everyone would go to heaven.  Do you assert that every is going to heaven?  The mere definition of predestine means to actively set the destiny beforehand.  

Mrpopdrinker:
"Romans 8:29-30 is nothing more then a "parable" (for lack of a better word") That if you come to Yeshua he died for you and if God is for you who can be against you."

Me:
Nothing more than a parable?  

Romans 8
29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

ok, I really believe that you are having fun in this and trying to make jokes.  Please don't joke with me mrpopdrinker.  I'm being serious and the least you can do is the same.

Mrpopdrinker:
"Now Yeshua died for all and anyone can come by freewill."

Me:
Jesus died for the elect, as was shown above.  You just throw in freewill... please don't just make assertions.  Once again, are you joking with me?  (serious question)

Mrpopdrinker:
"It is way of saying God did this for you as he did it for every individual and not a whole such as the elect. "

Me:
See, now i'm getting a little tired of this.  You obviously do not read my posts.  I have spent a very long time on this thread and you have spent, by the looks of it, a maximum of 5 minutes. You come on here and spurt these little assertions similiar to "I'm right and you are wrong.  I will ignore your posts and the Scripture you have posted."  Now, you started this thread as a direct attack on Calvinism.  I came to defend it.  You have not made one valid argument against Calvinism and simply assert the little comments in "you are wrong, I am right ... hahaha" style.  READ MY POSTS and if you have disagreement, post a legitimate argument against me, or I will ask an admin to split the thread with my posts and ask for another opponent who wishes to assert that Calvinism is false.  

I did not post in this thread to amuse you, I posted in this thread to challenge you to argument.  Sure my posts are long and there is a lot, but if you are going to attack something that someone else believes, you will have to do two things: read my argument (if you do not, then there is no way you can counter-argue) and post argument of your own (not just the "you are wrong, I am right").  So if you will be wasting anymore of my time, I will find the ignore button to where I can no longer see your posts, and look for another opponent.
 
sinse you believe in the all points of calvinism

Let me point out two points that i think co-inflect with one another

Total Depravity-Predistination
Limited atonement-Jesus only died for the elect few

I think these two yes go hand in hand but also contractdict eachother

to say that Jesus came to die for the would be christians is just crap IMO. Jesus died for the whole world, yes but some people choose to reject him, well by Total depravity that is wrong, because God predestined those that would believe thus those that would be saved. so did Jesus die for us all or just us Christians?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top