Catholic Questions

[Malohaut]

I ask this not to start trouble or to try and refute it. I am simply asking for understanding. Please tell me, why is it you pray to saints? I have heard that you pray to some saints for money, some saints for driving, and other saints for other reasons. For people outside of the catholic church, it would almost look like a repeat of Roman times whereas they would have a God for each part of life that you could pray to.

Some Catholics tell me they are asking the Saints to pray for them. But didn't Jesus' sacrifice on the cross open the veil of the holy place so that we might pray to God directly?

I am just curious because I do not know. Where did the idea of saints come from and how did you know you were to pray for them?





I am also curious about purgatory. Where did that concept come from?





The reason I am asking is because I have encountered no reference to either in the bible. I have seen no references to saints or purgatory, nor have I read anything about the people of God praying to anyone other than God. Yet it is a very strong belief in the Catholic church. So my curiosity is piqued. Tell me about them.

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (Malohaut @ Oct. 30 2003,6:06)]I ask this not to start trouble or to try and refute it.  I am simply asking for understanding.  Please tell me, why is it you pray to saints?  I have heard that you pray to some saints for money, some saints for driving, and other saints for other reasons.  For people outside of the catholic church, it would almost look like a repeat of Roman times whereas they would have a God for each part of life that you could pray to.

Some Catholics tell me they are asking the Saints to pray for them.  But didn't Jesus' sacrifice on the cross open the veil of the holy place so that we might pray to God directly?

I am just curious because I do not know.  Where did the idea of saints come from and how did you know you were to pray for them?





I am also curious about purgatory.  Where did that concept come from?





The reason I am asking is because I have encountered no reference to either in the bible.  I have seen no references to saints or purgatory, nor have I read anything about the people of God praying to anyone other than God.  Yet it is a very strong belief in the Catholic church.  So my curiosity is piqued.  Tell me about them.

We Pray to Saints because they are there. Catholics actually believe in Religion. We believe in Religion because every once in a while the Holy Spirit comes upon our especially Holy people who are then understood to be Saints. While alive they are Christ Like Giants of Miracles and Spiritual Truth. And after they die, their presence is still felt. It is said that a Saint is stronger in Spirit dead then alive. There are typically more Miracles. So, just like you would ask a co-worker to help you pick up a big box, you ask a Saint for help. When you need to push start your car, do you call a friend, or do you pray for Jesus? You call a friend. Praying to a Saint is like calling a friend.

Now, why do Prots deny the Saints. To understand this you need to read the lives of the Saints. They one and all believe in the necessity for Righteousness, Penance and Humility. Prots believe that they are saved by Faith Alone. Therefore it becomes necessary for the Prots to discredit the Saints so that they can set aside their Doctrine.

Then look at what they get. Without the Doctrines of Righteousness, Penance and Humility -- without the Asceticism of Celibacy of Fasting, the Prots in 400 years have not had one decent miracle working example of anybody with the Holy Spirit. The Prots are a Perfect Example of how to do it Completely Wrong.

The Catholics haven't been doing much better lately -- in the effort to be Ecumenical the Catholic Church has backed off hard Penance and Mortification and has given more emphasis to the Doctrines of Paul -- which means that the Free Masons have finally gotten into positions of power and are shaping Catholic Policy in the direction of Satanism.

But this can't discount the Saints we have had and still have.

One of the most useful is Saint Anthony who will help you find lost stuff. he really was a Great Saint, and I wonder that he has been relegated to such a job -- but he is very good at it. I pray to Saint Joseph when I have a problem at work. But mostly I look up to the Saints for Spiritual Help.

The Greatest Saints: Saint Bernard, Saint Dominic, Saint Francis of Assisi, Saint Francis of Paola (This Guy is Five Star Great), Saint Joseph of Coppertino the Levitating Saint, Padre Pio. Anne Catherine Emmerich the greatest Seer. Lidwine the greatest Stigmatic.

But when looking at Modern Catholic Revelation don't neglect to study the Apparitions of Our Blessed Virgin Mary.

Prots say they just want to pray to Jesus. Well, this is all Paul and no Gospel. In the Gospels we find that Christ will be King and Judge and Sit on the Right Hand of God and everyone was fighting over who would be close to Christ in Heaven -- Christ often indicated that heaven would be a place of rank and privelege. Therefore, I think it most unlikely that any ordinary sinner of a Prot would be able to summon Christ like He is a Jin in an Oil Lamp. They seem to think that Christ is their personal slave. Catholics are more Realistic. When were were told that Mary was made Queen of Heaven, we said "Yes, thankyou very much". We did not argue. And we do not even expect Mary to come whenever she is called. It is said that when we Pray the Rosary, the pray is turned to Flowers which our Guardian Angel takes up to Heaven and delivers to Mary's Chapel. Honestly -- it is just like the Real World, that we are lucky if we can get anybody to listen to us when we pray.

So, anyway, the next time you lose your car keys, you can pray to Christ and go to the dealership and get a new set made for $65, or you can pray to Saint Anthony and find them in a place where you had already looked five times.

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Quote[/b] ]Now, why do Prots deny the Saints

All who are in Yeshua are cleansed of all sin and are a saint, no better, a son of the living God!  

Quote[/b] ], the Prots in 400 years have not had one decent miracle working example of anybody with the Holy Spirit.

I would suggest you look at the ministries of Kenneth Hagin, Reinhard Bonnke and others mostly those that are word of faith and you will see many miracles.

Quote[/b] ]the Catholic Church has backed off hard Penance

The death of Yeshua/Jesus was enough to save us all where do you get this idea from?

 

[Watcher]

Quote[/b] ]Prots say they just want to pray to Jesus.  Well, this is all Paul and no Gospel.  In the Gospels we find that Christ will be King and Judge and Sit on the Right Hand of God and everyone was fighting over who would be close to Christ in Heaven -- Christ often indicated that heaven would be a place of rank and privelege.

Leo,

When is the last time you read the New Testament? Please be honest...

Now, are you denying Christ did not say He would send the Holy Spirit after His ascension? Are you now denying the Holy Spirit lives in the believer and is in communion with him? I am deeply troubled by your assertion because it completely contradicts Jesus' teaching.

Please produce Scripture that supports praying to the saints. And please produce Scripture that denies believers are indwelled, sealed and baptized by the Holy Spirit of God. Make me a believer.

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Quote[/b] ]Please produce Scripture that supports praying to the saints

Unless I have missed somthing in the Bible that is only in the apocrypha.

 

[Watcher]

Actually, it's in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

When reading the Catechism text, it's important to recognize that the Catholic Church most of the time supports its doctrines by referring to Catholic Church pronouncements, edicts, etc., and not by referring to the Bible.  The Bible cites in the Catechism are usually notated as "cf", meaning "confer".  A "confer" notation means "this kind of deals with the same subject," not "here is additional text that is directly on point."

My point is, a lot of the doctrines cannot be found in the Bible.

 

[mrpopdrinker]

I am speaking of Biblical proof though. The catechism as you say point to the catholics and not the Bible. Therefore it is a doctrine of man.

 

[Watcher]

Exactly, there is no Biblical proof that I'm aware of.

 

[Avesther]

Quote[/b] ]Honestly -- it is just like the Real World, that we are lucky if we can get anybody to listen to us when we pray.

1Peter3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."

You claim to be a Catholic and by such have a righteousness that the protastants do not, you claim that there isn't always somebody listening to your prayers. Yet, Peter describes that the Lord is attentive to the prayers of the righteous!

Quote[/b] ]In the Gospels we find that Christ will be King and Judge and Sit on the Right Hand of God and everyone was fighting over who would be close to Christ in Heaven

Produce the scripture that says we'd be fighting to be close to Christ?

Quote[/b] ]Catholics are more Realistic. When were were told that Mary was made Queen of Heaven, we said "Yes, thankyou very much". We did not argue.

And the scriptural basis for Mary being made Queen of Heaven can be found......

Quote[/b] ]We Pray to Saints because they are there. Catholics actually believe in Religion. We believe in Religion because every once in a while the Holy Spirit comes upon our especially Holy people who are then understood to be Saints

I believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I don't believe in Religion.

 

[Icthus]

I would like submit something here. It seems to me this could be an issue that would go in circles. It is a debate about things, not the real issue, but the things surrounding the issue.

It is my understanding that Roman Catholics believe the Church give us the words of God and is the final authority. While the protestants beleive the Bible of the council of Niche produced is the word of God.

This is an issue people have been fighting about for 1000's of years. Wars have been fought and reformations and inquestions and new worlds settled due to this difference. We, as mere people, will not find the anwers by demanding on wing of our faith conform to the other (IE- Protestants will pray via jesus and the holy spirit; Catholics will pray to a saint asking them to intercede on their behalf). The Catholic's will use Church teaching to say the Church is the final authority and Protestants will us the Bible to say the Bible is the final authority. Weird huh?

We must accept one anothers differences (and I personally do not like it) for the cause of Christ. They are not different faiths as the enemy would have us beleive. There is one Christ in both. He died for the sins of all. He is God's only son and the only way to heaven.

It is hard to rejoice in our differences especially when it comes to traditions. But, Jesus said (in both traditions) "They will know you are my followers by your love and unity" (My personal translation of John 17:20-23). I say this to first commend the posters here for their over all love and peace. And as a warning for those who try to attack not based on love. I seek to unify and reconcile, not to divide and conquer.

Bottom line for me: God is God, I am not.

 

[Kidan]

Why should I accept a denomination that teaches falsehood?

No, a little leaven, leavens the whole batch.  Likewise, false doctrines and heresies destroys a denomination.  To say otherwise is to throw open Christianity to any random cult leader out there.  To say otherwise is to give validity to Jim Jones or the Branch Dividians or the Mormons.  

This is not to say that someone could not  come to a saving knowledge of Christ within one of these denominations, but that the denomination itself is not Christian.

 

[4t0p]

Quote[/b] (Malohaut @ Oct. 30 2003,6:06)]I am just curious because I do not know.  Where did the idea of saints come from and how did you know you were to pray for them?

Actually everyone in Heaven is considered a saint in the Church, the canon of Saints is a list of those people who believe that there is no doubt that they are in Heaven, these people go through the process of canonization where several facts about their life must be determined for them to be added to the canon of Saints. One of those is that 3 miracles must have been performed by God through them (things such as bi-location [St. Francis Xavier]).

So simply being a saint is not an issue, there are many many protestant 'saints' just not so many on the 'canon of Saints'.

 

[Malohaut]

Thank you Leo. I have never heard it explained quite like that before.

Now I think the reason the protestants have a hard time accepting this is because of two reasons.

1. There is a theme in the bible, a theme of who God is and how He cares for the people He loves. He is a God of mercy. We see this in the old testament when he forgave the Israelites so many times, when he spared Noah and his family, when he rewarded Job for his persistance, and when he sent Jesus into the world who forgave many sins and cured the sick and spent time with the sinners and tax collectors. He is a God of love. We see this when he gave Adam and Eve the run of the garden, when He was pleased with Solomon, and when he promised Abraham a great descendant nation. And He is a God of salvation. God saved Noah from the flood, He saved the Israelites from Egypt, and He saved sinners by the sacrifice of His Son Jesus. So it is easy to accept a teaching if it correlates with the theme found in the bible.

But there are no references in the bible, that we know of, of when people prayed to Moses or to Joseph or to Noah. We never saw Job praying to Abraham for strength, or to Adam. Since the idea of assisting saints is not found in the bible, some protestants are reluctant to accept the idea, thinking it to be a man-made concept.


2. We know the great and mighty power of God. We know God to be so powerful that He has the ability to hear many people and answer many people at once. Not even the angels have this ability because there was a case in the old testament when an angel was sent to deliver a message and was delayed. (I forget the passage.) When we die and go to heaven, will we gain the ability to hear multiple prayers at once? Will we have the power to answer several people at once? When I say we, I don't mean you and me exactly, but those who are cannonized as saints? I think this is the second reason why most protestants don't accept the idea of saints. It makes a person sound God like and with their desire to serve and call upon only one God, they are not favored to the idea of asking a saint for help instead.

Reason number 1 is also why purgatory isn't easily accepted. There's no found reference in the bible.


I think protestants are also reluctant to immediatly believe someone if they say God visited them and told them something. If it doesn't correspond with what is read in the bible, it may be considered as false preaching. So Catholic revelation may be equated to the revelation of Joseph Smith, or the claims of David Koresh. If it doesn't correspond with the bible, then it is believed that the 'revelation' may be a desception (sp?) from the fallen angels.

 

[Avesther]

Quote[/b] ]Not even the angels have this ability because there was a case in the old testament when an angel was sent to deliver a message and was delayed.

That is the angel in Daniel 10:10-13.

 

[Malohaut]

Oh thanks. I've been wondering that.