mrpopdrinker
New Member
I see reverence as putting "insert somthing here" above all things. To have an extreme amount of honor for somone. God is worthy of all praise honor and glory. Only to him will my knee bow.
Catholic Miracles
- Thread starter timor
- Start date
mrpopdrinker
New Member
Mary is not worthy of extreme honor. This is not the old covenent this is the new covenent and God is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Mary is no better then me she was blessed so are many people.
mrpopdrinker
New Member
Maby I should rephrase this. Worship and pray to God only. Anything else is idolotry.
Watcher
New Member
Leo, your assertion that the Catholic church put the Bible together merely as a study guide is untrue. That may be your perspective, but that is not what the historical record suggests.
First, lets look at inerrancy and inspiration in more detail. The word “Inerrant” is defined as being “wholly true” or “without error” and directly refers to the fact that Biblical writers were completely errorless, truthful, and trustworthy in all their affirmations. In other words, all statements within the autographical manuscripts, whether scientific, historical, or geographical are indeed truth.
Inspiration states that the Holy Spirit guided and supervised the writers of the Scriptures, made use of their unique writing styles and personalities, and insured they wrote everything that He wanted them to write, without excess or mistake.
Inspiration encompasses the words, not just thoughts and concepts. This is defined through the terms plenary and verbal inspiration of Scripture. Plenary means the inspiration is entire and without restriction, that is, it includes all Scripture. II Tim. 3:16 says, “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” Verbal inspiration means it includes every word. “These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual" (I Cor. 2:13).
The starting point for a proper understanding of inerrancy is the self-witness of the Bible. The Bible fully claims divine inspiration and authority, and implied therein is the doctrine of inerrancy. Jesus himself vouches for the inspiration of the Scriptures.
In Mathew 5:18, Jesus said, “Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the law, till all is fulfilled.” The jot represents the smallest Hebrew letter and the tittle the minor stroke that distinguishes one letter from another. There can be no doubt the jot and tittle represent the particles of Scripture as a whole.
In other words, Jesus claimed even the smallest detail in the Scriptures was of consequence and importance. If Jesus did not believe in full inspiration and the quality of inerrancy, the force of His argument is lost.
Jesus’ emphasis on the essential nature of Scripture as a whole is seen in John 10:34,35. In this passage, Jesus illustrates a statement from the Psalms and argues that neither it nor other parts of the Law can be broken. If Jesus had felt the Scriptures were only partially inspired and subject to error, He would not have made this claim.
The Bible claims to be the Word of God. If a man or book speaks in truth, we should allow them to speak for themselves. The Bible speaks truthfully on all matters, and makes certain claims of itself. In 3800 different passages, the Old Testament uses phrases such as, “Thus sayeth the Lord,” “the word of the Lord came to,” “the Lord said,” or something equivalent. The New Testament writers also used such expressions as, “declaring to you the whole purpose of God,” “in words…taught by the Spirit,” and “the Lord’s commandment.”
Jesus made important predictions on the preservation and interpretation of the facts that are connected with Him and His mission. Before the ascension, Christ told His disciples that the Holy Spirit would make them competent teachers of the Truth. Jesus said the Spirit would do this by coming to them, teaching them all things, by bringing to their remembrance all that He has said to them, by guiding them into all truth, and by showing them things to come (John 14:26; 16:13).
If He is who He says He is, we must hold His teachings as truth. Jesus claimed to be authoritative in His teaching, and His teaching included the idea that the Hebrew Scriptures are inerrant and that the future ministry of the Holy Spirit would include the authoritative teaching of “all things” to Christ’s hand-picked apostles, who in turn would write the New Testament.
I'll be happy to argue the facts pertaining to the canonicity of the Bible at a later time. Let's just say the canon of the Old Testament in the form we now have it, was the work of Ezra and the Great Synagogue. This fact is declared in the most ancient Jewish writings. The Great Synagogue was composed of Ezra, Nehemiah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi. There is no doubt that such a collection of books existed in the time of our Lord and the apostles (Luke 24:27,44).
God Bless, and I look forward to examining God's Word together.
First, lets look at inerrancy and inspiration in more detail. The word “Inerrant” is defined as being “wholly true” or “without error” and directly refers to the fact that Biblical writers were completely errorless, truthful, and trustworthy in all their affirmations. In other words, all statements within the autographical manuscripts, whether scientific, historical, or geographical are indeed truth.
Inspiration states that the Holy Spirit guided and supervised the writers of the Scriptures, made use of their unique writing styles and personalities, and insured they wrote everything that He wanted them to write, without excess or mistake.
Inspiration encompasses the words, not just thoughts and concepts. This is defined through the terms plenary and verbal inspiration of Scripture. Plenary means the inspiration is entire and without restriction, that is, it includes all Scripture. II Tim. 3:16 says, “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” Verbal inspiration means it includes every word. “These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual" (I Cor. 2:13).
The starting point for a proper understanding of inerrancy is the self-witness of the Bible. The Bible fully claims divine inspiration and authority, and implied therein is the doctrine of inerrancy. Jesus himself vouches for the inspiration of the Scriptures.
In Mathew 5:18, Jesus said, “Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the law, till all is fulfilled.” The jot represents the smallest Hebrew letter and the tittle the minor stroke that distinguishes one letter from another. There can be no doubt the jot and tittle represent the particles of Scripture as a whole.
In other words, Jesus claimed even the smallest detail in the Scriptures was of consequence and importance. If Jesus did not believe in full inspiration and the quality of inerrancy, the force of His argument is lost.
Jesus’ emphasis on the essential nature of Scripture as a whole is seen in John 10:34,35. In this passage, Jesus illustrates a statement from the Psalms and argues that neither it nor other parts of the Law can be broken. If Jesus had felt the Scriptures were only partially inspired and subject to error, He would not have made this claim.
The Bible claims to be the Word of God. If a man or book speaks in truth, we should allow them to speak for themselves. The Bible speaks truthfully on all matters, and makes certain claims of itself. In 3800 different passages, the Old Testament uses phrases such as, “Thus sayeth the Lord,” “the word of the Lord came to,” “the Lord said,” or something equivalent. The New Testament writers also used such expressions as, “declaring to you the whole purpose of God,” “in words…taught by the Spirit,” and “the Lord’s commandment.”
Jesus made important predictions on the preservation and interpretation of the facts that are connected with Him and His mission. Before the ascension, Christ told His disciples that the Holy Spirit would make them competent teachers of the Truth. Jesus said the Spirit would do this by coming to them, teaching them all things, by bringing to their remembrance all that He has said to them, by guiding them into all truth, and by showing them things to come (John 14:26; 16:13).
If He is who He says He is, we must hold His teachings as truth. Jesus claimed to be authoritative in His teaching, and His teaching included the idea that the Hebrew Scriptures are inerrant and that the future ministry of the Holy Spirit would include the authoritative teaching of “all things” to Christ’s hand-picked apostles, who in turn would write the New Testament.
I'll be happy to argue the facts pertaining to the canonicity of the Bible at a later time. Let's just say the canon of the Old Testament in the form we now have it, was the work of Ezra and the Great Synagogue. This fact is declared in the most ancient Jewish writings. The Great Synagogue was composed of Ezra, Nehemiah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi. There is no doubt that such a collection of books existed in the time of our Lord and the apostles (Luke 24:27,44).
God Bless, and I look forward to examining God's Word together.
G
Guest
Guest
Fair Enough.[b said:
Now, who represents the Christian Church? In the Gospel of Luke we have Mary presented to us as the First Christian. In the Gospel of John we have Christ on The Cross giving His Church to Mary, to be its Mother.
Paul, is just Paul. It seems you are settling for the poopy end of that bargain.
G
Guest
Guest
No
CCGR
Member
Paul is not a saint or anywhere close to status, just a dedicated and obedient follower of Christ. he was not perfect or sinless.
Watcher
New Member
Hi Leo, thank-you for your reply.
The main issue I will address in this post is your statement, “The Catholic Church Published the Bible as a reference material.” I will also speak briefly on the Doctrine of Inspiration which I assume you are quite familiar with.
Your statement on the publishing and tradition of the canon doesn’t agree with the historical record. If I am misunderstanding your post, please accept my apology.
There is absolutely no dispute that the Old Testament canon existed before the time of the New Testament. The canon of the Old Testament was clearly acknowledged and functional at the time of Jesus' ministry. It is also debatable whether the early versions of the Septuagint in fact contained the deutero-canon. I am not denying the deutero-canon was held in high regard; however, I am debating the claim of its inspiration and authority through ‘traditon.’
If you note Josephus' testimony, the testimony of the Jewish writings themselves, and the issue of the books that were 'laid up' in the Temple, there is no doubt the Old Testament was canonized by Ezra and the members of the Great Synagogue around 500 B.C.
Josephus writes, "We do not possess myriads of inconsistent books, conflicting with each other. Our books, those which are justly accredited, are but two and twenty, and contain the record of all time. Of these, five are the books of Moses, comprising the laws and the traditional history from the birth of man down to the death of the lawgiver. This period falls only a little short of three thousand years. From the death of Moses until Artaxerxes, who succeeded Xerxes as king of Persia, the prophets subsequent to Moses wrote the history of the events of their own times in thirteen books. The remaining four books contain hymns to God and precepts for the conduct of human life. From Artaxerxes to our own time the complete history has been written, but has not been deemed worthy of equal credit with the earlier records, because of the failure of the exact succession of the prophets."
On the basis of later testimony in the early Church, the twenty-two books mentioned here are usually thought to be the exact same as our thirty-nine.
Athanasius wrote his 39th Festal Letter in 369 B.C. (a full 44 years before Nicaea):
“There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for, as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews; their respective order and names being as follows. The first is Genesis, then Exodus, next Leviticus, after that Numbers, and then Deuteronomy. Following these there is Joshua, the son of Nun, then Judges, then Ruth. And again, after these four books of Kings, the first and second being reckoned as one book, and so likewise the third and fourth as one book. And again, the first and second of the Chronicles are reckoned as one book. Again Ezra, the first and second are similarly one book. After these there is the book of Psalms, then the Proverbs, next Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs. Job follows, then the Prophets, the twelve being reckoned as one book. Then Isaiah, one book, then Jeremiah with Baruch, Lamentations, and the epistle, one book; afterwards, Ezekiel and Daniel, each one book. Thus far constitutes the Old Testament.”
We also know that the “Bible” was in the hands of the Apostles, and hence the early Church. There is no question that Paul’s letters were considered Scripture during the lifetime of Peter (2 Peter 3:15-16), and Paul did in fact quote Luke as Scripture (1 Timothy 5:18). In other words, we had New Testament Scripture functioning in the apostolic period.
From what I can gather through the tone and voice of your posts, you deny the inerrancy, infallibility and authority of the Scriptures themselves. The exegesis of 2 Peter 1:20,21 is clear.
“Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.”
Clearly this passage tells us Scripture is not of human origin, neither is it the result of human will. The emphasis in the phrase "by the will of man" is that no part of Scripture was ever at any time produced because men wanted it so. The Bible is not the product of human effort. The prophets in fact sometimes wrote what they could not fully understand (1 Peter 1:10,11) but were nonetheless faithful to write what God had revealed to them.
Examining the grammar used in the phrase “moved by the Holy Spirit” shows they were continually carried or borne along by the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit is thus the divine author and originator, the producer of the Scriptures.
In the OT alone, the human writers refer to their writings as the words of God over 3800 times (e.g. Jer. 1:4;3:2; Rom. 3:2; 1 Cor. 2:10). Though the human writers were active rather than passive in the process of writing Scripture, God the Holy Spirit superintended them so that, using their own individual personalities, thought processes, and vocabulary, they composed and recorded without error the exact words God wanted writeen. The original copies of Scripture are therefore inspired, i.e. God-breathed (2 Tim 3:16) and inerrant, i.e., without error (John 10:34,35;17:17; Titus 1:2). Peter defined the process of inspiration, which created an inerrant original text (Prov. 30:5; 1 Cor. 14:36; 1 Thess. 2:13), and Paul’s writings are included and recognized.
God Bless.
The main issue I will address in this post is your statement, “The Catholic Church Published the Bible as a reference material.” I will also speak briefly on the Doctrine of Inspiration which I assume you are quite familiar with.
Your statement on the publishing and tradition of the canon doesn’t agree with the historical record. If I am misunderstanding your post, please accept my apology.
There is absolutely no dispute that the Old Testament canon existed before the time of the New Testament. The canon of the Old Testament was clearly acknowledged and functional at the time of Jesus' ministry. It is also debatable whether the early versions of the Septuagint in fact contained the deutero-canon. I am not denying the deutero-canon was held in high regard; however, I am debating the claim of its inspiration and authority through ‘traditon.’
If you note Josephus' testimony, the testimony of the Jewish writings themselves, and the issue of the books that were 'laid up' in the Temple, there is no doubt the Old Testament was canonized by Ezra and the members of the Great Synagogue around 500 B.C.
Josephus writes, "We do not possess myriads of inconsistent books, conflicting with each other. Our books, those which are justly accredited, are but two and twenty, and contain the record of all time. Of these, five are the books of Moses, comprising the laws and the traditional history from the birth of man down to the death of the lawgiver. This period falls only a little short of three thousand years. From the death of Moses until Artaxerxes, who succeeded Xerxes as king of Persia, the prophets subsequent to Moses wrote the history of the events of their own times in thirteen books. The remaining four books contain hymns to God and precepts for the conduct of human life. From Artaxerxes to our own time the complete history has been written, but has not been deemed worthy of equal credit with the earlier records, because of the failure of the exact succession of the prophets."
On the basis of later testimony in the early Church, the twenty-two books mentioned here are usually thought to be the exact same as our thirty-nine.
Athanasius wrote his 39th Festal Letter in 369 B.C. (a full 44 years before Nicaea):
“There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for, as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews; their respective order and names being as follows. The first is Genesis, then Exodus, next Leviticus, after that Numbers, and then Deuteronomy. Following these there is Joshua, the son of Nun, then Judges, then Ruth. And again, after these four books of Kings, the first and second being reckoned as one book, and so likewise the third and fourth as one book. And again, the first and second of the Chronicles are reckoned as one book. Again Ezra, the first and second are similarly one book. After these there is the book of Psalms, then the Proverbs, next Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs. Job follows, then the Prophets, the twelve being reckoned as one book. Then Isaiah, one book, then Jeremiah with Baruch, Lamentations, and the epistle, one book; afterwards, Ezekiel and Daniel, each one book. Thus far constitutes the Old Testament.”
We also know that the “Bible” was in the hands of the Apostles, and hence the early Church. There is no question that Paul’s letters were considered Scripture during the lifetime of Peter (2 Peter 3:15-16), and Paul did in fact quote Luke as Scripture (1 Timothy 5:18). In other words, we had New Testament Scripture functioning in the apostolic period.
From what I can gather through the tone and voice of your posts, you deny the inerrancy, infallibility and authority of the Scriptures themselves. The exegesis of 2 Peter 1:20,21 is clear.
“Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.”
Clearly this passage tells us Scripture is not of human origin, neither is it the result of human will. The emphasis in the phrase "by the will of man" is that no part of Scripture was ever at any time produced because men wanted it so. The Bible is not the product of human effort. The prophets in fact sometimes wrote what they could not fully understand (1 Peter 1:10,11) but were nonetheless faithful to write what God had revealed to them.
Examining the grammar used in the phrase “moved by the Holy Spirit” shows they were continually carried or borne along by the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit is thus the divine author and originator, the producer of the Scriptures.
In the OT alone, the human writers refer to their writings as the words of God over 3800 times (e.g. Jer. 1:4;3:2; Rom. 3:2; 1 Cor. 2:10). Though the human writers were active rather than passive in the process of writing Scripture, God the Holy Spirit superintended them so that, using their own individual personalities, thought processes, and vocabulary, they composed and recorded without error the exact words God wanted writeen. The original copies of Scripture are therefore inspired, i.e. God-breathed (2 Tim 3:16) and inerrant, i.e., without error (John 10:34,35;17:17; Titus 1:2). Peter defined the process of inspiration, which created an inerrant original text (Prov. 30:5; 1 Cor. 14:36; 1 Thess. 2:13), and Paul’s writings are included and recognized.
God Bless.
G
Guest
Guest
Well, yes, I would love to take exactly what you say as a grand compromise -- that would be all the demotion of Paul I would ever be likely to expect in a real world with all its compromising.[b said:
However, the Protestants have instigated the insidious Doctrine of assuming that every word of the Bible is automatically a Word of God. You see what happens then, don't you. Paul's Words are lifted above the context of coming from "just a dedicated and obedient follower of Christ... not perfect or sinless" to being THE WORD OF GOD, placed in virtual equality to the Words of Christ Himself from the Gospels.
Also, Paul belies your assessment. Paul from the very start of him ministry was continuously mouthing the claim that "Christ was speaking through him". People who say such things today are instantly dismissed as frauds, but Paul was the first to do it, and then told his people to ignore anybody in the future who would try the same trick. It worked. You believe Paul, but have everyone who says the same thing tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail.
Couple of questions for you, if you don't mind:[b said:
1. Are there any translations of the Bible that are inerrant today?
2. If not, how do we know what was actually written?
3. Inerrant means no errors...no matter how stupid and inconsequential, an error is an error. Agreed?
4. As an example, if I showed a passage saying that Jesus was wearing tan Dockers when he was arrested, and another passage that said that Jesus was wearing khaki Bugle Boys, that would be an error. Agreed?
So,
5. If yes, what would you do if you found an actual error?