Can you lose your salvation?

[Vanaze]

Well, what does this board think? I have my own beliefs and mind made up over this, I'm just curious as a whole what you guys think.

Don't feel obligated to vote, but do if you want. I just feel important by getting people to vote for something I posted :-x.

Anyways, make a post and let us know.


Van

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (Vanaze @ Nov. 01 2003,12:18)]Well, what does this board think?  I have my own beliefs and mind made up over this, I'm just curious as a whole what you guys think.

Don't feel obligated to vote, but do if you want.  I just feel important by getting people to vote for something I posted :-x.  

Anyways, make a post and let us know.


Van

Dear Vaneze,

   Again, the entire concept of Salvation is Paul and Protestant.  If you look at the Sermons of Our Lord: The Sermon of the Mount, the Sermon of the Lord's Prayer, The Sermon on the Occasion of the Last Supper, The Farewell Address at the Ascension, and then, the Parables -- look over that entire body of Work, which the Omniscient Christ would certainly have thought sufficient for Christian Edification, and you'll find many criteria for salvation -- Baptism, Righteousness, Charity, Partaking of the Body and Blood -- a blend of moral and spiritual demands on which we will be judged.  Paul, later, and with many of the real disciples of Christ coming back to Jerusalem to report his unauthorized innovations, set out a new doctrine that it would all be easy -- that Christ had done all the work.  But, then, look at the Parables, and decide whether the Parables are fuller of Hope or of Dispair.  The Servant who doesn't understand investing -- goes to Hell.  The Sower and the Seed -- for every seed that is fruitful there are five that will go to hell.  The Tares and the Wheat -- that the Damned will abide in the Same Field with the Believers, masquerading as Believers.  Then the series of Parables about the Son of the King who has his Estates stolen by rebelious tenants.  All of these Parables would be impossible to Paulian Doctrine -- the Stupid Investor would be saved by Faith; Every Seed sown would grow to fruition in Faith; Every plant in the Field (even the Tares) would become good Wheat by Faith, and all those on the Estate of Faith in Christ would not be seen as Usurpers but as the Sons of God -- but they aren't.  Christ Judges but Paul automatically acquits.

So do you believe Christ or do you believe Paul.  Christ said there would be False Apostles -- wolves in Sheep's Clothing with Bad Fruit.  Well, Luke indicts Paul in the Book of Acts.  Read Acts carefully.  Luke presents Paul as murderer who sets up his own separate Church.  The transcipt of the hearing before the High Priest is damning.  And this was Scripture that was Canonized by a Church that was largely Paulian -- after Paul won the Civil War for control of the Church you can still see residue of the righteous struggle that attempted to uphold The True Gospel in the face of the False Prophet's Heresy.  In the Dead Sea Scrolls we do not have Luke's careful restraint.  Paul become "The Great Liar" and is named the Antichrist.

So, can you lose your Salvation?  Well, you don't have a Salvation so much as you have a Judgment.  I myself sometimes use the word Salvation, but in the sense in which Our Lady uses the term -- she does not talk in terms of people regarding their own personal salvation as in "You will be saved if...." but rather She speaks of efforts to bring Salvation to the lost.  Here, Salvation means to bring upon them a moral and spiritual conversion which would transform them sufficiently to survive The Judgment of Christ.

 

[Big J]

Seems to me that if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit...that would be one way to lose salvation.

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (Big J @ Nov. 01 2003,7:51)]Seems to me that if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit...that would be one way to lose salvation.

But what does that mean?

Theologians look at the quote and just scratch their heads.

No one even knows what the Holy Spirit is. So how can you blaspheme It?

Thinking for a second, it might not be an ordinarily available Sin. One cannot Blaspheme the Holy Spirit until one meets the Holy Spirit -- and this is reserved for only the Highest Elect at the Peak of Mount Olympus, so to speak. Only those WITH the Holy Spirit could possibly Blaspheme it -- I would suppose by disobeying its Impulses. And how many believers actually HAVE the Holy Spirit -- well .. this can be answered in how many believers have Christ Like Powers. What, there have been maybe 30 such in History. So it must be a Sin available only to the very Elite.

 

[Kidan]

There's a fine example of people blaspheming the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts (it resulted in instant death)

And Leo, If Peter is to be believed, the Holy Spirit comes upon salvation. So you're saying that only 30 people have been saved throughout history?   Which is of course a ridicously low number since there were more than 30 that were saved on the day of Pentecost, and more than 30 were saved, and evidenced Spiritual Gifts within the book of Acts alone.


Onto the question at hand, I do not believe in 'Once Saved, Always Saved.'  My opionion (and the opinion espoused by my church is  that salvation is something that must be worked on.SA Doctrine

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (Kidan @ Nov. 01 2003,9:34)]There's a fine example of people blaspheming the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts (it resulted in instant death)

And Leo, If Peter is to be believed, the Holy Spirit comes upon salvation. So you're saying that only 30 people have been saved throughout history?   Which is of course a ridicously low number since there were more than 30 that were saved on the day of Pentecost, and more than 30 were saved, and evidenced Spiritual Gifts within the book of Acts alone.


Onto the question at hand, I do not believe in 'Once Saved, Always Saved.'  My opionion (and the opinion espoused by my church is  that salvation is something that must be worked on.SA Doctrine

Dear Kidan,

Where? Instant death! Do you mean when Peter had that young couple killed because they held out a portion of their personal wealth. What did the Holy Spirit have to do with it? Peter might have used the Holy Spirit -- as the Power of God to kill them. St. Patrick was famous for being able to Curse People to death -- and presumably it is one of the rather stranger Gifts of the Holy Spirit. Saint Francis of Paola was able to wish Death upon the Sultan who had assembled a 300,000 Man Army to Invade Europe. But Peter's Young Couple, the Druids that St. Patrick Cursed, and the Sultan of Turkey did not Blaspheme the Holy Spirit and we do not have to believe that anything beyond physical death occured to them or to their Immortal Souls.... Unless you have another 'take' on it. Gee, when Elias had his snit fit with the children in the Woods and used the Holy Spirit to bring a bear to kill them all -- those were bratty but innocent children -- you can't pretend they are Eternally Damned because the Holy Spirit was used to smite them. Blaspheming and being smitten are two different things.

And, Kidan, we KNOW for an absolute certainty that practically NOBODY gets the Holy Spirit -- not matter what the Doctrine of any Church is we KNOW what the Holy Spirit is, and nobody we know has it. In the History of Salvation we can ennumerate several hundreds of Saints who can be documented as having had Christ Like Powers that only the Holy Spirit could bestow. Only about 12 Major Saints that I could count off. Everyone one else DOES NOT have the Holy Spirit. Now, to say that they did, THAT would be to blaspheme the Holy Spirit!

St. Bernard was one of the most ascetic monks who ever lived and joined one of the most demanding Brotherhoods. And even among those guys -- the best of the best -- few had the Holy Spirit. There is one story about how a fellow Monk came to Bernard sad that he did not have the Holy Spirit. He was honest enough to admit what everyone should know. Bernard told him to be patient and persevere. Then one day the Fellow Monk was coming back from a shopping trip and POW suddenly he had the Holy Spirit. Bernard saw him coming from a mile away and ran to greet him with "Congratulations!" Not everyone has the Holy Spirit, but those who do are special -- One in 10 Million Special.

I like your logical jump of IF PEOPLE DON'T HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT THEN THEY ARE NOT SAVED. Does that necessarily follow in some strange parallel universe. Whether we have the Gifts of the Holy Spirit or not does not effect the Quality of Our Soul. If we are Obedient to God then does it matter whether or not we can command mountains to move or trees to jump into the Sea. You have to remember, the Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Holy Trinity -- it never becomes US -- it always remains ITSELF. It comes as a Gift, but our Souls remain the same. Catherine of Sienna had the Holy Spirit alright, but there was never any mistake about her still being a pain in the butt female.

It is good that you believe in the Judgement of Christ. Since you don't even bother to partake of the Worst Heresy of Protestantism, why do you bother to partake of their Guilt. What, you decided to murder a million Catholics for effectively nothing?

As many things as I find wrong with the Church, because Our Lady still abides with it, even in Tears and Sorrow for all of its mistakes, it is clear we must abide with it too. But that all takes discernment. And with you thinking that everyone has the Holy Spirit, clearly discernment isn't your strong point.

 

[Kidan]

Peter did not curse them.

Quote[/b] ]Act 5:1  But a man named Ananias, with the consent of his wife Sapphira, sold some property.
Act 5:2  With his wife's full knowledge he kept back some of the money for himself and brought only a part of it and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Act 5:3  Peter asked, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart so that you should lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back some of the money you got for the land?
Act 5:4  As long as it remained unsold, wasn't it your own? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? So how could you have conceived such a thing in your heart? You did not lie to men but to God!"
Act 5:5  When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear seized everyone who heard about it.
Act 5:6  The young men got up, wrapped him up, carried him outside, and buried him.
Act 5:7  After an interval of about three hours, his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.
Act 5:8  So Peter asked her, "Tell me, did you sell the land for that price?" She answered, "Yes, that was the price."
Act 5:9  Then Peter said to her, "How could you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you outside as well."
Act 5:10  She instantly fell down at his feet and died. When the young men came in, they found her dead. So they carried her out and buried her next to her husband.

No, rather that they lied to God and the Holy Spirit, willingly  and purposefully.  That is what people describe as Blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

Ahh, but you are fully mistaken on what the having the Holy Spirit means.  We do not become the Holy Spirit, to do so would be to become God.  Areyou saying that these 30 folks have become gods?  Well since Catholic's do pray to them...

Anyways, Christ promised us the Comforter, that is the Holy Ghost. While we do not become the Holy Spirit, we are the temple for the Holy Spirit.

Think on this, I have a cat.  She's mine, she lives in my house, eats what I put down for her, I care for her, I provide for her, She sleeps on my bed,  She's a companion for myself, my wife and my son.  Yet I am  not my cat, nor is the cat me.  Likewise, the Holy Spirit is there for me, a constant companion for me.  He  cares for me, and comforts me.  Yet I am not the Holy Spirit nor is the Holy Spirit me.


oh Yeah, Elisha's bratty but innocent children, were anything but.  They were teenagers, mocking a Prophet of the Living God.  And more importantly they were mocking the Living God by their words.  They were judged then and there by the Living God.


Tell  me, how do you  KNOW that noone has the Holy Ghost?  It seems to me that just about everyone got it in Acts.    And  in I know for a FACT that at least 3000 had it on the first day  of the first Pentecost after Christ's Ascension

Quote[/b] ]Act 2:38  Peter answered them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.
Act 2:39  For this promise belongs to you and your children, as well as to all those who are far away, whom the Lord our God may call to himself."
Act 2:40  With many more words he continued to testify and to plead with them, saying, "Be saved from this corrupt generation!"
Act 2:41  So those who welcomed his message were baptized, and that day about 3,000 persons were added to them.

And do note, that is Peter and not Paul saying this. As well I did not say that all people would evidence the GIFTs of the Holy Ghost.  I said that any who are saved recieved the Holy Ghost.

I have murdered  none.  Whether or not these millions of Catholics accept Christ or not is not on my hands.  My only job is to teach God's word and the Good News to any who will listen.  Whether they accept Christ as their saviour or not, I cannot control.

I would reply to the personal attack about my lack of discernment with some sarcastic comment, but I'm trying to cut back on my daily output of  sarcasm....

 

[Big J]

Just another thought...for those who feel that salvation can be lost...how do you rectify Romans 8:38-39 and Ephesians 4:30?  (I mean, there's three people that voted "yes," excluding myself and (I assume) Leo (being that it is the work of a person whose name begins with "P" and ends in "aul").)

Especially Eph 4:30

Quote[/b] ]And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

[Kidan]

As in all things, it's a matter of free will. As well, read around it. This verse is in the midst of telling people things not to do (don't sin, don't let the sun go down on your anger, put aside bitterness and wrath, etc...)

Why would you worry over grieving the Holy Spirit, if you are always sealed? This is not to say that you automatically lose your salvation the moment you do something as this (there is grace) but rather if you turn away from Christ it is akin to unsealing yourself.

 

[Thaddius]

Also this:

Quote[/b] ] 21. And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.
22. And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
23. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
24. And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
26. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
27. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
28. Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29. But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
30. Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

In Mark Jesus talks about Blasphemy against the Holy Spirt. It seems when he was accused of having an uclean spirit it was considered blasphemy

Cory

 

[Malohaut]

I am looking at the scriptures provided and this is what they are saying to me:

Romans 8 : 38-39 NIV "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

That's a very comforting scripture. Although God may punish us, or be angry with us, He will never stop loving us. And there is nothing on this earth, in this earth, or in the spiritual realm that will stop God from His love for us. Isn't that just awesome?

(Now Leo, I know you do not believe in the writings of Paul as truth. So what is it you believe in regards to God's love? Can God stop loving those who turn from Him?)


Ephesians 4:30 NIV "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

"Do not grieve the Holy Spirit." I'm not fully sure exactly what this means. Can anybody tell us what the original word of 'grieve' is and by context, what is it trying to say? Here are other bibilical translations of the same passage that may give us a little bit of a better idea what it may mean:

The Message
"Don't grieve God. Don't break his heart. His Holy Spirit, moving and breathing in you, is the most intimate part of your life, making you fit for himself. Don't take such a gift for granted."

Amplified
"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God [do not offend or vex or sadden Him], by Whom you were sealed (marked, branded as God's own, secured) for the day of redemption (of final deliverance through Christ from evil and the consequences of sin)."

Contemporary English
"Don't make God's Spirit sad. The Spirit makes you sure that someday you will be free from your sins."

Young's Literal
"and make not sorrowful the Holy Spirit of God, in which ye were sealed to a day of redemption."


So I am curious. What, in your opinion, do you think would sadden God or offend Him? I know that God is a jealous God and gets hurt when we seek false Gods above Him. I think God also becomes sad when we turn from Him and teach others to do the same. Its like a parent who's child yells, "I hate you!" meaning it, and forever runs away. That would break the heart of any parent, and I'm sure it would do the very same for God.



Now if we combine Romans and Ephesians, it would seem to day that even if we grieve the holy spirit, we can never break away from God's love. I again use the example of a human parent (not deadbeat parents we know of today). S/he could always be hurt or disappointed or upset at a rebellious or silly child, but that won't stop their love for that child.

Some of you may raise flags and say, "Hold on. Just because God loves us doesn't mean we have the right to do what we want and know it okay." And you're right. This message is not intended for those who are walking in God in good times, for it would seem to tell them that its okay to do bad things because you'll be excused. Instead, this message is for those who are down and depressed about their sin. It tells them that yes, they sinned, and yes, they should be sorrowful for it. But God still loves you very much and He still wants you to get back up and try again.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Kidan]

On the Romans verse.  You're right, nothing can seperate us from God's love.  For God loves all, even sinners and those who have turned from Christ.  This is not to say that you cannot walk away from Christ, but rather God still loves you when you do.

To use your child example
The child tells the parent 'I hate you' and then runs away.  The child has left the parent's house/control, yet the parent still loves the child, and the child can return to the parent.  So it is with us and God.  We can run from Him, yet He will welcome us back with open arms.

 

[Big J]

Very interesting takes on the verses.

I chose those because those are the verses the IBF cited as reasons why you cannot be unsaved.

Like I said, it makes more sense that if someone actively rejects God...how can they still be saved? (I'm not talking about in a fit of passion...I'm talking about an active, reasoned rejection.)

 

[Kidan]

Also, if you can't lose your salvation, why then is there such an emphasis on good living in the Bible?  

To put it simpler, why bother living a Christian life if no matter what you do, you'll stay saved? (and I hate to say it, but this particular concept is lived out by a number of my Baptist friends).  IMO the dogma of 'Once Saved, Always Saved' leads to more sin and rampant hypocrisy in the church.

But let's relate one of Christ's parables.  The Wayward son.
This son, lived a good life, and then one day said 'Hey give me my share of the money, I wanna go live somewhere else.'  The son's father said 'OK, if that's what you truly want, then I'll do so.'  The father then gave the son his share of the inheritance, and the son ran off to a foreign land, and live a rather hedonistic lifestyle, until his money ran out and famine hit hte land.  The son started making a living by feeding livestock, and eating after livestock (ie the livestock's leftovers).  Finally the son decides to return to his father, and when his father sees him, the father welcomes the son back, with a feast.

We as Christians are living in our Father's house, some may decide they wish to leave, He will let those that so decide, but He will also welcome them back, when and if they decide to return.

 

[Vanaze]

Good points, Kidan, though I've heard many wise Christians say that any doctrine stating salvation has anything to do with works is "a creaky bridge that you dare not step too far along".

Just a thought.

 

[Vanaze]

Another thing....I attended a Baptist church for the better part of 3 years, and in my time there, the youth group consisted of more than just Baptists. They attended my church only on Wednesday nights, mostly due to the lack of good youth leadership in their churches and such.

So, many of them held the idea that you could lose your salvation to be true. Did that stop them from being some of the wildest, most sinful people? No.

I think the big trouble with this doctrine is that true Christians do not lead the lives they should nowadays. Therefore modern day Christians, particularly younger ones, see certain "Sins" as not "Real sinning". It sounds confusing, but I promise you from working with teens for the past couple of years, this is a very true statement.

They take salvation for granted, though yes, in the end, they are convicted and they repent of it.

I just remember what Christ said about forgiving not just a certain amount of times, but to keep on forgiving. And then He later gave the Lord's prayer which says,

"Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed by thy name.
Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day, our daily bread;
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation
But deliver us from evil. Amen."

I plainly see Christ telling us to ask God to forgive us as we Forgive our tresspassers. And if Christ commanded us to forgive again and again, then that means God must forgive, again and again.

And eh, it wouldn't be "Eternal salvation" if you can lose it.

Van

 

[Vanaze]

er, that particular verse I was talking about is 1 John 2:25.

 

[Thaddius]

Van,

I grew up in a Texas Bible belt southern baptist church. "once saved, always saved" is what was taught. My question is, what about those that turn from God? Those that have heard the message, were baptised, believed then turned away. When I think of the phrase "lose your salvation" I don't look at it like one day you just messed up and it was gone. I see it as a active act of giving it up. Refusing or rejecting God and what He has set forward.

Cory

 

[Gyllis]

Here's my opinion on this...I will do some more research and get into the Holy Spirit debate that was brought up by Leo (for I know of Scriptures from Jesus Himself that say that we will receive the Spirit) at a later time.

As for the losing salvation. To me, grieving the Holy Spirit is the same as rejecting it completely. And, to me, if you truly accepted Christ as your Lord and Savior, and accepted the Holy Spirit, then that Spirit will guide you. You will not want to leave God or reject His Spirit. For those who say they are saved and even are baptized, and then turn around and reject God, were they saved to begin with? My beliefs are that they never really were. It seems to be the case especially with young ones who go through the motions because they saw their friends do it. Even adults do it, thinking that if they go through the motions they will be saved. But it's not what we do...it's who we are. Saying that you believe and going through the motions mean nothing if you don't truly mean it in your heart.

I use the example of the king in Shakespeare's Hamlet when I approach prayer. Hamlet found him praying for forgiveness, repenting of his sins, thus decided not to kill him expecting him to go straight to heaven (which he did not want). Now...the key to this part of the story is that after Hamlet left, the king stated that the prayer he spoke was just words flying to the sky. They meant nothing, thus they were useless. The same way with our salvation. Just going through the motions doesn't cut it. We have to truly accept it.

As for the Spirit guiding you...here's one example...

John 16:7-8 -- "But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:"

Jesus says that He will send the Counselor (the Holy Spirit) to us and that that spirit will convict us. If we have truly accepted the Holy Spirit into your lives. It will guide us and convict us when we have done wrong. Including if we start to run astray. It will always pull us back. Though, maybe I should not call the Spirit an "it" but "He." I apologize for that.

As for the baptists being sinners. I have noticed, and through discussions with others have found they have noticed it as well....that Baptist, who are believe you are saved by grace no matter what are the more conservative. On the other hand, Catholics, who have many rules and totally dismiss being saved by grace, seem to be the most liberal. Now, this isn't the case for everyone, but seems to be the case for most. I don't want to cause stereotypes, but it seems that most of the time when I find someone who claims to be a strong Christian, strong in their beliefs, and I see them living a life that is pleasing to them and not God, they turn out to be Catholics. Again, I don't want to offend Catholics. There have been many great Catholics...including C.S. Lewis who even Protestants look at for insights. Even Mel Gibson seems to be a great Catholic, looking at his work, so far, on "The Passion" film that he has made. The same goes for the other end. I know many Baptists, and other Protestant Christians, who seem to follow the same lifestyle. But mostly, the pattern I laid out seems to fit.

I could probaby say a lot more. But, for now, will end it here being such a late hour for me. Again, I will also bring up more about the Spirit at a later time, once I do some more studying on it, and feel I have my scriptures in order.

 

[Big J]

Mmmm.

I was a Baptist at one point. Trust me, there are a lot of hypocritical Baptists out there. There are a lot of hypocritical "Christians" out there period (please note, I can say the same about Muslims who drink, Jews who eat pork, &c., so I'm not just "Christian bashing" here).

Gyllis, I have a couple of questions for you. Why do you believe that if someone rejects God that they were never really saved? As an example, if a Muslim accepts Jesus, would you say he was never "really" a Muslim? How would you feel if you converted Abdul, and other Muslims scoffed and said "well, then, he was never really a Muslim in the first place?"

And anyone can feel free to answer on this one...just refrain from telling me I was never saved to begin with, 'K? Thanks.