Can you lose your salvation?

[Malohaut]

Faith without works is dead. It is easy for anyone to say, "I believe in Jesus." Is it easy for someone to go to church, to go through the worship, to attend baptism and take the sacraments, and then go home and live out their life. To them, church was just a ritual like eating or sleeping. Its not real and neither is Jesus. There are many people like that out there who say, "I believe." but don't really. So when they get bogged down with 'religion', they decide, "forget this" and walk away. If there is no true faith in their heart to begin with, then they never really believed in the first place.

But when we accepted Christ, we died with Him and rose with Him. Jesus said, unless you are reborn, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Correct me if I'm wrong (seriously), but when we truly accept Christ in our hearts, is not our mind and heart renewed with a new outlook? We stop living a life of selfishness and self-maintainance and start living a life of love for others. We look out for others, care for others, love God, and seek to do good. These are the works that are the product of our new heart. And when we 'walk away', we are more like protigal sons because our heart will continue to pull us back. (I've been there. I've told God that I doubted Him because of my storm at the time, but I never really could doubt Him in my heart and I always came running back.)

So it is possible for someone to go through the motions and then walk away from church never having believed, or fully understand what Christ was about. And in that case, they never were saved to begin with.

What of the book of life as mentioned in the bible? Are not those who are going to enter the kingdom of heaven written in that book? I haven't taken the time to look it up, but I raise the question: if God took the time to write a name in the book of life, will he also erase names? Does the bible speak of smiting names out of the book of life? The answer to that question might be the same answer as "Can you lose your salvation?"

Just some thoughts.

 

[Gyllis]

Big J,

I believe I have already answered your question. You just didn't understand what I had said. Being saved through Christ Jesus is totally different than being a Muslim, Buddhist, or part of some other religion. The key is the Holy Spirit -- the Counselor. When we truly accept Jesus Christ as our Savior, we must receive the Holy Spirit as well. Yes, we can ignore the Holy Spirit that is within us. I will admit I have done it many times in my life. However, I realize that the Holy Spirit never left. The Holy Spirit would be guiding me away from sin, trying to get me from following through with my temptations. After I ignore the Spirit, and fall into my sin, that same Spirit has convicted me (just like Jesus said in the scripture I quoted).

The same goes for walking away from God. You can doubt God, you can become angry with him. But the Holy Spirit will always be there. Sometimes we get to a point to where we can always ignore the spirit. We change our focus.

Think about an auto-pilot. If we are on a boat, plane, etc. and have the auto-pilot set on east. Then we decide to change that direction without ever changing the auto-pilot, we could grab ahold of the controls and turn it. We would start to go in that direction for a while, but the tension caused between battling it out with the auto-pilot would eventually tire us and we will let go and fall back on our original course.

Now, the question is how is your auto-pilot set. If you set it on the Holy Spirit and what God wants you to do, we can steer away at times, but eventually the Holy Spirit will bring us back. However, we can get to a point to where we choose to change our auto-pilot. We can get to a point to where we can mostly ignore the Spirit and not feel AS convicted. But, the Holy Spirit never leaves. We have just told him that we don't want him to pilot us, right now. He's still there, trying to give directions and get us back on course, but we have learned to shut him off.

My life is a great example of this. As a child, I really believed In Jesus. I believed I was saved. As I got into high school, I stopped going to church. Started doing my own things. I was missing the things that condition us to hear the Spirit, and thus God. I went several years living a life of sin. But eventually I realized where I was in life and that I needed to get back. How that realization comes is different for everybody. Some may have to get rock bottom, some don't. Thank God I didn't. Through the last several years, since I have worked on getting my focus back on God, I have looked back at those years and saw God there with me in several situations. Times that I felt I was just lucky to survive or get through. I realized that many of those times were impossible to make it through without God intervening. He never left me.

Now, the question is still up in the air. If I had died during those years, would I have been saved. I don't know for sure. I feel that I would have, but that is only a feeling. It is OK to think differently. God wants us to be in unity, not uniformity. Our different experiences and personalities that He has given us shape us to be different, and to think different. But we must come together with our common goal. To follow Jesus and bring others to Him. Rick Warren's Purpose-Driven Life (and corresponding campaign) teaches of our five purposes in life -- Worship, Fellowship, Discipleship, Ministry, and Evangelism. Within all those, God doesn't expect us to be uniformed, but united. We may worship God differently, we may find different ways to fellowship with one another, we have different talents and gifts that help us to minister to one another, and we can evangelize to others differently. That leaves Discipleship -- Becoming like Christ. That doesn't mean we are to become a God, but become Godly. Follow Jesus's examples and live a life as close to Him as possible. We will, more than likely, never reach that potential until we get into heaven. But God wants us to get as close as we can, and He will finish it in heaven. There is only one person to follow here, and only one way to get there (though there are different tools that are used to shape us and get us there -- Bible, Holy Spirit, and circumstances). Though our personalities may be different, we may do different things, again...it's not what we do, but who we are.

In the end, however, it shouldn't matter if we are once saved, always saved, or not. We should follow what Jesus has laid out for us, follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and do our best to fulfill the purposed laid out for us. If we do those things, we won't have to worry about it, personally.

Now, for the question of what's the point of doing good things, if you are going to be saved anyway. The Bible talks many times of rewards in heaven (especially the crowns). By doing those good works, we will receive certain awards in heaven and be given certain tasks and status of honor to work with Jesus. Heaven isn't about lying around and relaxing. But that's a whole other topic to discuss. The question that Jesus will ask is "what did you do for me?" Now this is the question that will be asked of those saved, but those who did nothing will not be given the honor that we will want in heaven. He knows the answer to the question already, so you can't lie to Him. If you are not saved, then Jesus will say "I knew you not." If we are in that group, we will already be put aside and cast into the lake of fire. There will be no reason for us to be asked what we did for Jesus.

Oh, and after some research, I did find one scripture referring to being taken out of the Book of Life.

Rev. 22:18-19 -- "For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away hi part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

It's the only reference to being taken out, and it relates to those who take away from God's prophecy. Whether the book means Revelations (as it seems to be) or the entire Bible is uncertain to me.

Also in Revelation --

Rev. 3:5 -- "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."

What we must overcome is the question. This was one of the letters written to the churches and not referring to the tribulation.

Another thing came to me while typing this, too....if we must work for our salvation and not be saved by faith alone...what about the thief on the cross? One mocked Jesus, the other admitted his sins and asked Jesus to remember him. Jesus told him that He would see him in paradise. The thief was saved right then and there. He didn't hop off that cross and do great works for God. Just a little something to think about.

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] (Gyllis @ Nov. 04 2003,11:17)]Being saved through Christ Jesus is totally different than being a Muslim, Buddhist, or part of some other religion.  The key is the Holy Spirit -- the Counselor.  

It's the only reference to being taken out, and it relates to those who take away from God's prophecy.  Whether the book means Revelations (as it seems to be) or the entire Bible is uncertain to me.

Yes, I aparently did miss your point on the Holy Spirit. Your autopilot example was good.


As far as the words being taken out or added to...one would need to infer that it pertains only to the book, since (1) there was no new testament at the time, and (2) Revelations (and the other books of the NT) itself was added on to the OT. Just another thought.

 

[Kidan]

also on the subject of those last few verses of Revelations, it's only dealing with Revelations. Why? Because some of the books we have in the NT were written AFTER Revelations. If that applied to all scriptures, then those books would need to be thrown out.

 

[Guest]

You can not have you name removed from THE BOOK OF LIFE until you are either translated or raised from your sleep and HAVE TASTED OF THE FRUITS OF THE KINGDOME OF HEAVEN, AND THEN WALKED AWAY.
Then you will be punished greater than satan will be. amen
i am nothing0.
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA. AMEN

 

[Malohaut]

If we, as humans, remain in Christ through all the Earthly adversities; if we still choose to remain with God and with Jesus even though so many others mock us or attack us, then what makes you think anybody would walk away from God and Jesus when all adversity and friction is forever removed? I just cannot see it happening.

However, it does raise an interesting point. Satan was a heavenly angel. And he rebelled from God. Does that mean that when we enter into heaven, that we too have to watch out for self pride as well? I've always wondered that.

 

[Vanaze]

As have I, though we will be made into the image of Christ, correct?

Satan wasn't in the image of Christ, rather just another creature.

::Shrug::

Maybe that might convince us not to become proud

 

[Guest]

And now you have seen a little light.
Pride will get you cast from Heaven on earth as surely as Lucifer was cast out as satan.
i am nothing0.
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA. AMEN

 

[mpty]

Quote[/b] ]Does that mean that when we enter into heaven, that we too have to watch out for self pride as well?  I've always wondered that.

I think that we will be more focused on Christ in heaven, rather than on ourselves.

 

[minotesvardet]

Okay...well, here's my two cents. This debate over security of the believer comes very close to home with me, being that one of my close relatives no longer believes in God (if you could pray for her I would very much appreciate it

)
I do not believe a Christian can lose his or her salvation. This is how I have always been raised, and I am very thankful for it. If I believed that I could lose my salvation, I would have given up on life-after all, if God gave up on me, why shouldn't I give up on me?
Likewise, however, I do not believe that our salvation gives us a right or license to sin. I believe that if a person is truly saved, s/he will desire to please God. Don't get me wrong, no one is perfect, but most Christians who are following Christ have a desire to please God.

Like I said, just my two cents...please pray for my aunt.

~Jordyn

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (mpty @ Nov. 07 2003,12:08)]

Quote[/b] ]Does that mean that when we enter into heaven, that we too have to watch out for self pride as well?  I've always wondered that.

I think that we will be more focused on Christ in heaven, rather than on ourselves.

Oh Good!

Finally, someone that seems to understand the point.

Of course any degree of selfishness is in itself Satanic, but this is an instance where degree is important. In Heaven, the Love and Charisma of The Holy Trinity will be dazzling and Attractive enough to quickly burn away a slight residual mortal selfishness. But the Splendor of God is not All Powerful, as we know that Satan and a full One Third of the Original Angels were able, in His Wonderful Presence, to nurture enough selfish pride to be damned to hell.