mrpopdrinker
New Member
OK here is the new thread as requested
Calvinism
- Thread starter mrpopdrinker
- Start date
mrpopdrinker
New Member
Oops I ment to call it calvinism but oh well im in three different debates. Now romans 29-30 could be talking about those of us who are great ministers Reinhard Bonnke and Billy Graham are good examples.
Kidan
Moderator
I still don't see how God's omniscience affects free will?
Consider my 7 month old son. I know that if he crawls off the bed, he will cry (the bed, being the one in my room, about 2.5 feet off the ground). I know this for a fact (and I knew this prior to my son doing this). I know for a fact, from previous experience that my son will crawl to the edge of the bed, and roll/jump off. Yet does my knowledge of this, prevent my son from crawling to the edge of the bed, looking down, and jumping? No, as attested by the fact that's that exactly what he tried this morning (luckily I was able to catch him before he made it to the floor this time).
Now, did my son exercise his free will? Yes. He made the decision to go to the edge of the bed, and push off. Now, did my foreknowledge of this event change his decision? No. Even though I knew he would do this, and I had pulled him back from the edge three times already, he still went to the edge, and went over. Did I impose my will upon him? Oh yes, but that did not change the fact that he still had the power to make the decision himself. I merely saved him from the consequences of that decision.
Consider my 7 month old son. I know that if he crawls off the bed, he will cry (the bed, being the one in my room, about 2.5 feet off the ground). I know this for a fact (and I knew this prior to my son doing this). I know for a fact, from previous experience that my son will crawl to the edge of the bed, and roll/jump off. Yet does my knowledge of this, prevent my son from crawling to the edge of the bed, looking down, and jumping? No, as attested by the fact that's that exactly what he tried this morning (luckily I was able to catch him before he made it to the floor this time).
Now, did my son exercise his free will? Yes. He made the decision to go to the edge of the bed, and push off. Now, did my foreknowledge of this event change his decision? No. Even though I knew he would do this, and I had pulled him back from the edge three times already, he still went to the edge, and went over. Did I impose my will upon him? Oh yes, but that did not change the fact that he still had the power to make the decision himself. I merely saved him from the consequences of that decision.
mrpopdrinker
New Member
Alright now this was to discuss calvinism from a christian viewpoint take that other stuff to the freewill debate. You atheists stay out of this this thread is not for you.
M
Medjai
Guest
Ahh but you are not omniscient.
God not only knows what will happen 'if' you do something, but he knows whether or not you 'will' do it.
As a result, you can realistically only follow one course of actions throughout your life, as to do anything other than that which God knows you will do would negate his omniscience.
You can't act contrary to what he knows you will do. This means that the illusion of free will could be present in that you have appeal to choices, but ultimately, you WILL pick that which you are DESTINED to pick. If you are destined to do something, and you don't do it, you have successfully negated destiny, and the concept of omniscience.
God not only knows what will happen 'if' you do something, but he knows whether or not you 'will' do it.
As a result, you can realistically only follow one course of actions throughout your life, as to do anything other than that which God knows you will do would negate his omniscience.
You can't act contrary to what he knows you will do. This means that the illusion of free will could be present in that you have appeal to choices, but ultimately, you WILL pick that which you are DESTINED to pick. If you are destined to do something, and you don't do it, you have successfully negated destiny, and the concept of omniscience.
mrpopdrinker
New Member
Can you read medjai. I said take the freewill stuff to the freewill debate. I also said for the atheists to stay out this is a discussion from a christian viewpoint.
M
major
Guest
lol, timor i find it funny that you say you used to be a Calvinist and that you understand the calvinists more, because calvinists believe that once your a Christian you are always a Christian, Arminianist believe otherwise. And mrpopdrinker, i am an Arminianist, but i see both points of view and if you truely give both a chance you will see both have proof. For example the difference of the King James Version and NIVersion. NIV tends to lean towards Calvinism, but if you read King James it leans toward Arminianism, its just the way the translations are worded.
Here is a little extract from what i have written about some of the topic
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Most Christians would probably agree that God does not have a physical form. If that is true then we cannot look like God, but in Genesis 1:27, it says, “So God created man in his own image.” What else could this mean except that God made us like him and gave us a choice to do right or wrong and to be a Christian or not. We obviously don't look like God physically, and mentally we are no match for God so it must be our free will (Moore and Stine). In John 6:37b, John writes, “and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” I Corinthians 8:3 proclaims, “But if one loves God, one is known by him.” God loves everyone, but if we love him we are known by him, or put in the Book of Life. These references signify a choice we have to accept Christ or not, and would it not make since that if we have a choice to choose him, that should not we have a choice to reject Christ as well?
There are verses that Calvinists cannot give a good explanation for though just as there are for Arminians (Moore Stine). Galatians 5:4 its says, “You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.” Acts 15:11 goes on two say that we are saved through grace, which is a gift from God, so in conclusion we can say that this verse clearly states that you can fall from salvation. In 2 Timothy 2:12 the Apostle Paul tells Timothy, “If we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us.” This implies that we have the choice to deny him and if we do Jesus will deny us and we shall not be saved.
Much controversy is also over different translations of the Bible; for instance in the Revised Standard Version, I Timothy 4:1 through 2 says, “[1] Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, [2] through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared.” This and the King James Version strongly confirms the Arminian side, while in the New International Version the verse one is similar, but verse two says, “Such teachings come through hypocritical liars whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.” This looks like it is saying that what it said in verse one not correct but a lie, and whoever teaches such things is a hypocrite and a liar that does not have a conscience.
The Parable of the Talents in Matthew 25, the owner who represents God gave three servants a number of talents according to their ability. Then the owner went on a long trip and when he returned two servants had used the money and multiplied it while the third did nothing with his. This looks like even if God knows we are not to become a Christian, yet God still gives us an equal opportunity to become one. In the story the man resists the king (God) showing that we can do the same. Also, Revelations 22:19 states, “and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life,” (some translations say book of life) “and in the holy city, which are described in this book.” This says God will take away their share of Heaven, as if they once had it. You cannot take away something from someone that they never had.
Some references the Calvinist often use are Romans 8:29-30, “For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.” This says we are everyone God foreknew, he predestined, while almost any Christian would agree that God foreknew all humans. If someone is predestined to become a Christian it seems unlikely that they would leave Christ and loose their salvation.
Philippians 1:6 says, “And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” This very much appears to agree with the statement that you cannot fall from grace, but if you look at the verses before it Paul is giving a blessing to the Church in Philippi. It is possible that this is still part of the blessing or he could still be talking about this particular church and not everyone in general.</span>
Also I think this is the most important part
John Wesley founded the Methodist Church and himself was an Arminian. While debating against Calvinists he decided that the temper of the new, younger opponents convinced him that there was no peace to be found with the Calvinistic party. After several exchanges with them in controversial treatises, he decided on a different course. A statement in Wesley's letter of July 30, 1773, to Mrs. Woodhouse, helps to introduce us to the issue. “The point they aim at is this-to make Calvinists. Our point is to make Christians. They endeavor to convert men to the dear Decrees; we to convert them to God” (Keefer 7).
Here is a little extract from what i have written about some of the topic
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Most Christians would probably agree that God does not have a physical form. If that is true then we cannot look like God, but in Genesis 1:27, it says, “So God created man in his own image.” What else could this mean except that God made us like him and gave us a choice to do right or wrong and to be a Christian or not. We obviously don't look like God physically, and mentally we are no match for God so it must be our free will (Moore and Stine). In John 6:37b, John writes, “and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” I Corinthians 8:3 proclaims, “But if one loves God, one is known by him.” God loves everyone, but if we love him we are known by him, or put in the Book of Life. These references signify a choice we have to accept Christ or not, and would it not make since that if we have a choice to choose him, that should not we have a choice to reject Christ as well?
There are verses that Calvinists cannot give a good explanation for though just as there are for Arminians (Moore Stine). Galatians 5:4 its says, “You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.” Acts 15:11 goes on two say that we are saved through grace, which is a gift from God, so in conclusion we can say that this verse clearly states that you can fall from salvation. In 2 Timothy 2:12 the Apostle Paul tells Timothy, “If we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us.” This implies that we have the choice to deny him and if we do Jesus will deny us and we shall not be saved.
Much controversy is also over different translations of the Bible; for instance in the Revised Standard Version, I Timothy 4:1 through 2 says, “[1] Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, [2] through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared.” This and the King James Version strongly confirms the Arminian side, while in the New International Version the verse one is similar, but verse two says, “Such teachings come through hypocritical liars whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.” This looks like it is saying that what it said in verse one not correct but a lie, and whoever teaches such things is a hypocrite and a liar that does not have a conscience.
The Parable of the Talents in Matthew 25, the owner who represents God gave three servants a number of talents according to their ability. Then the owner went on a long trip and when he returned two servants had used the money and multiplied it while the third did nothing with his. This looks like even if God knows we are not to become a Christian, yet God still gives us an equal opportunity to become one. In the story the man resists the king (God) showing that we can do the same. Also, Revelations 22:19 states, “and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life,” (some translations say book of life) “and in the holy city, which are described in this book.” This says God will take away their share of Heaven, as if they once had it. You cannot take away something from someone that they never had.
Some references the Calvinist often use are Romans 8:29-30, “For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.” This says we are everyone God foreknew, he predestined, while almost any Christian would agree that God foreknew all humans. If someone is predestined to become a Christian it seems unlikely that they would leave Christ and loose their salvation.
Philippians 1:6 says, “And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” This very much appears to agree with the statement that you cannot fall from grace, but if you look at the verses before it Paul is giving a blessing to the Church in Philippi. It is possible that this is still part of the blessing or he could still be talking about this particular church and not everyone in general.</span>
Also I think this is the most important part
John Wesley founded the Methodist Church and himself was an Arminian. While debating against Calvinists he decided that the temper of the new, younger opponents convinced him that there was no peace to be found with the Calvinistic party. After several exchanges with them in controversial treatises, he decided on a different course. A statement in Wesley's letter of July 30, 1773, to Mrs. Woodhouse, helps to introduce us to the issue. “The point they aim at is this-to make Calvinists. Our point is to make Christians. They endeavor to convert men to the dear Decrees; we to convert them to God” (Keefer 7).
mrpopdrinker
New Member
Which is exactly why im trying to buy lessons in greek and hebrew. I dont know whats up with my comp but they second half of what you say doesent show up till the next time my comp loads the page. Im looking at the second half of your last post now major.
mrpopdrinker
New Member
Hey Major you seem to have some resources of this could you give me a few websites on what calvinists believe and armimism VS. Calvinism. My sister goes to a prysbeterian church and they dont really seem to preach on changing your life around. I want to show her the truth I fear for what will happen to her when she dies.
M
major
Guest
I personally believe most Calvinists are going to Heaven also, but some presbertirian churches don't even preach salvation, my grandfather was preberterian preacher for a few years and had never heard of salvation, then he did and became a methodist preacher, but God is really the only one that knows who is going to Heaven so here are a few websites that state the difference and backgrounds and versus
http://solascriptura-tt.org/Soterio....oud.htm
http://www.albatrus.org/english....ism.htm
http://www.geocities.com/aprofaith/freewi.htm
This one below is very good.
http://www.tnnonline.net/theonews/salvation/calvinism-arminianism/
http://solascriptura-tt.org/Soterio....oud.htm
http://www.albatrus.org/english....ism.htm
http://www.geocities.com/aprofaith/freewi.htm
This one below is very good.
http://www.tnnonline.net/theonews/salvation/calvinism-arminianism/
mrpopdrinker
New Member
Thanks ill look at them a little later.
I hope no one minds if I share what I feel is a very important point. These are just my opinions, so please do not take offense.
Humans are not omniscience. Further, no human has ever been omniscient. What this means, quite simply, is that the topic of omniscience is outside human understanding because it is outside human experience. No one here--atheist or Christian, however intelligent they think they are--is qualified to address the matter.
Now, we do have an idea of what omniscience is, but it is far from reliable. We obtain the idea through an extrapolation--we take the small, limited bit of knowledge we have and extrapolate to infinite knowledge. Quite simply, this leaves something like infinite room for error. What can be said about omniscience is that it deals with having a lot of knowledge, but that's about it.
In my opinion, anyone who makes an argument using destiny, predestination, or some similar idea is being either arrogant or gullible. However, feel free to go on talking about the affects of such beliefs--I have no problem with that.
Humans are not omniscience. Further, no human has ever been omniscient. What this means, quite simply, is that the topic of omniscience is outside human understanding because it is outside human experience. No one here--atheist or Christian, however intelligent they think they are--is qualified to address the matter.
Now, we do have an idea of what omniscience is, but it is far from reliable. We obtain the idea through an extrapolation--we take the small, limited bit of knowledge we have and extrapolate to infinite knowledge. Quite simply, this leaves something like infinite room for error. What can be said about omniscience is that it deals with having a lot of knowledge, but that's about it.
In my opinion, anyone who makes an argument using destiny, predestination, or some similar idea is being either arrogant or gullible. However, feel free to go on talking about the affects of such beliefs--I have no problem with that.
M
major
Guest
I understand that we know little, but God has talked much about it in the Bible and ALSO, emphasis on the also, we have a personal relationship with God and we can learn to know him and his characteristics. It's not all based on proof but relationship, so that is why their is much controversy.
We can know God's characteristics insofar as we were created in His image. Omniscience was not included. If God had chosen to make us omniscient, I am sure there wouldn't be (much) controversy on the matter. As far as I see it, this strict human application of "omniscience" to God is an attempt to chain Him and drag Him down to our level--no wonder it causes problems. However, God gave us plenty of means to know Him without requiring us to resort to such an effort.
Again, this is (obviously) just my opinion.
Again, this is (obviously) just my opinion.
Yep. There's something to noodle, huh?[b said:
And to everyone saying that omniscience is outside the realm of human understanding, that is only so if you choose to ignore logic and make it unfathomable.
Anyways, like pop said (in a less than tactfull way), this discussion belongs on the free will thread. Discuss Calvinism.
mrpopdrinker
New Member
I dont know I wont judge them as a whole but some of them from what I have seen Just go on living they way they used to. Faith without works is dead and when a man is in Yeshua he is a new creature. So if they dont change there ways which I dont believe alot of them do are they really saved? I think Timor is A good example that calvinism is incorrect but wait I used to go to a baptist church so let me get on my boring baptist voice! Timor you may have eluded they fathers hand but you cant get out of the sons he will bring you back to him soon. Not that I believe that doctrine although I pray Timor does find God again.[b said: