Baptism

Let me give you ANOTHER example.

There was a family, and their little 8 year old girl went down front during invitation and gave her life to Jesus. At that church, they do baptism at the night service. After the morning service, she left and her family was killed on the way home in a car accident.

No, that's not a what if, that's my baby cousin that died.

So you're telling me she went to hell?

Van
 
thats up to God van, but if she truely ment it then no i dont think she did, but i would put it to the leadership, why not baptize people right now, unless they want it to be later so family/friends can be there....
 
It's just not always prudent to hold over a 1500 member congregation to baptize one person. While it is important, people do have post-service plans, usually, whether it be in the form of Sunday school or something else.

Hence I'll stand by my words that baptism is not a requirement for salvation, but a requirement of faith, if you wish to call it that.

Faith demands it, just like your mom might tell you to take off your dirty shoes. You don't have to do it, but your mom still loves you.

God is a loving, forgiving God, and the fact that you said for yourself that you do not think she would be going to hell, you agree with me. God doesn't have double standards, remember? So either she went to heaven or hell, and she would have to be judged by the rod that everyone else was judged, since she understood the plan of salvation. That's like saying that baptism saves one person but not another.

Baptism is not required. It's just a good idea. A very good idea.

Vanaze
 
Alrite, I don't believe Baptism (simply getting wet by being dunked in water) is required but are we just going to shoot for the bare requirements? Lets all read the Bible, analyse every word, and find the Bare minimum I have to do to get to heaven. What about the person who Believes that Jesus died for thier sins, and repents. Then later while they had the chance to be baptised, they don't, because its not "required". Don't know about you guys, but from past experience I have seen that the easier someone becomes a christian, the easier they turn away from it. I'll agree if you analyze the words, it appears that Baptism isn't required for salvation, but thats if you think baptism is only the water part. If all there is to Christianity is following the letter of the laws, I think that is rather shallow. Jesus Christ became baptized when he blatently didn't need it. I'll follow in his footsteps, and  I think baptism should be taught as a requirement. Sure, there are people who can not be baptized, but I think we got baptism all wrong. I think the people of the old testament showed thier faith for the first time through baptism. They didn't walk up and kneel in front of the speaker, and then recite the sinners prayer in thier head, and then scedule a baptism. Thier baptism I think was the prayer of accepting Christ in thier heart, and then being symbolically dunked. Baptism is not just the dunking, but profess Christ, AND participate in symbolic dunking. If you don't profess Christ (part of baptism) your not saved. Thats my thoughts on it. Take it for what its worth.
 
but Jesus DID need to be baptized. He had to be sacrificially cleansed with water and anointed with oil to enter the priesthood.
 
Its always amazing how people try to justify what they believe on hypothetical remarks, lol. "What if's" are not reality, and everything that God intends is not always understandable to us as humans, so trying to lessen baptisms role because you do not understand and seek after hard proof, which you have all tried, since you have all overlooked verses in which the purpose of baptism is clarified, ones I have mentioned earlier. Why is it that you all try to look into it and selectively interpret it on what you want to hear instead of trusting FULLY what God's Word has to say on it.
 
I do trust fully what God's Word has to say in regards to the requirements of salvation.

An no matter HOW you look at it, baptism is a work. It's something you go and do.

I go and get my haircut. It's something I do. Yet am I actually cutting my hair? no. but is still something I do? yes.

the same as baptism, no matter how you argue otherwise it is still a work, and there is NO work as a requirement for salvation, just belief.
 
Heh, I meant to cleanse him from sin, though yes, I'm aware of the process of him having to "enter the priesthood", and I'm aware that the baptism was metaphorical, as far as being "Cleansed".

Perhaps that why WE are supposed to be baptized? To enter the priesthood that all believers are supposed to be a part of?

Just conjecture for now, seeing how I haven't found a scriptural connection between the two, but I'll check into it..

Oh, and Kidan, feel free to inform me if you already know of some concordance between the two.

Van
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Vanaze @ Mar. 12 2004,8:05)]To enter the priesthood that all believers are supposed to be a part of?
Vanaze will make a nice Lutheran
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At any rate...this whole debate is pretty ancient. In the Didache, one of the earliest church writings, we find that they did indeed feel that baptism was necessary...granted, it didn't matter what form that took (i.e., sprinkle if you don't have running water, etc.), so long as the significance was realized.

Then again, there are those who steered clear of baptism due to its perceived relation to cults. One prominent example coming to my mind is the cult of Mithras, where people would stand in a hole in a ground under a grate, onto which would be poured warm bull's blood; baptism by blood. Yuck.

Now, MY opinion...

I think baptism is not crucial, but I think it is extremely important. Part of the shift our religion is undergoing toward postmodernism is a triviality of the sacraments. There was a time when being physically baptized gave hope and made a statement to people, and did have relevance to a person's faith. If you question baptism, why not question the Eucharist as well?
 
from all my studies, i've decided that baptism is an outward symbol of an inward work. It shows that we've accepted the Lord and have been born again.

We're born in water, as such, baptism symbolizes the spiritual new birth that salvation brings.

We're cleansed in water. as such baptism symbolizes the spiritual cleanliness that salvation brings.

we play in water, as such, baptism symbolizes the spiritual joy that salvation brings.


baptism is an important aspect of Christianity, yet notice that all those things about it, are symbols. It is a symbol of our belief and an act of love and obedience. But it is not required. God doesn't work that way.

The ONLY requirement for salvation is belief in Christ.


van we're not priests though. we server the high priest Christ, and are ordered to spread the gospel. But the preist's primary job was to sacrifice animals for the populace for the covering of sin (and other aspects of the law requireing sacrifice).
 
What about the scriptures telling us that we have all been given the priesthood?

Maybe I'm thinking of something else, but I don't think so.
 
I'm pretty sure the scripture I'm referring to is in First Peter 2....around verse ten if I remember right. AH, just googled for it. I Pet. 2:9 is the scripture. Look it up for yourselves.

Van
 
Heh, and also in Hebrews 4, we're told that we have direct access to the throne -- something only the priests had the ability to do.
 
*lol*

Kidan, you're silly
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Much love for a brother who can admit he was WRONG! OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH GOT EM'. (I'm kidding, chill
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)

Van
 
Baptism is no different than communion. It's done in obedience.

If you're truly born again, the Holy Spirit indwells you and it's not a question of "Should I be Baptized," it's rather a question of "When can I be Baptized!" That being said, Baptism is not 'required' for Salvation.

Baptism is God's will yes, but not a requirement for Salvation. The only requirement is Jesus. Look in the Bible all you wish. I challenge anyone to apply proper exegesis to the Scripture and show me where Baptism by water is required for Salvation. The reality is, it's not there...you won't find it.
 
Differs in that we don't have to give sacrifices and things of that nature anymore, but is very similar in that we're supposed to tend to the people, minister to them, as well as study the Scriptures in depth.

Van
 
Yes, but still different. :P Well, now that we have pretty much come to an agreement, I guess this debate should be closed.
 
Taken from HERE

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]What Does the Bible say about...Water Baptism?

Water baptism is an act of obedience that follows conversion to portray symbolically the washing away of our sins. Water baptism calls for immersion instead of sprinkling. Many groups that have only sprinkled in times past are now seeing that the Scriptural method is total immersion in water. In fact, the Greek word "baptism" means to immerse, submerse and emerge.

The baptism itself does not bring salvation; salvation inspires the water baptism. It should be the first thing we do after we are "born again." Those who have received Jesus in their hearts should desire to follow Him in this ordinance. Jesus Himself came to John the Baptist to receive His water baptism because He was to take the sins of the world at His death. These sins would be washed away by God for those who put their trust in Him. "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water" (John 1:29-31).

Anyone who receives water baptism must realize what it means to receive it; therefore, infant baptism is not Scriptural. One must repent and be saved to be baptized. Water baptism portrays the burial of the old man and his works of death and the raising out of the water into the new life in Christ. An infant cannot repent. However, parents can dedicate their babies to the Lord, as there are many accounts of this throughout the Bible. Hannah prayed a beautiful prayer when she dedicated her son Samuel to the Lord, "For this child I prayed; and the Lord hath given me my petition which I asked of him: Therefore also I have lent him to the Lord; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord" (I Samuel 1:27-28). John's baptism of repentance was to prepare the way for the baptism of the Holy Ghost by Jesus.

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire" (Matthew 3:11).

"And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God" (John 1:32-34).

Once we are "born again" the Lord instructs us to be baptized in water as an act of obedience to typify what has happened to us spiritually.

Romans 6:1-18:

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Verse 4 says if we are baptized into Christ, we are also baptized into His death; all of our sins are nailed to the cross. This revelation will free us from all guilt when we realize every sin we have ever committed has been washed away. Going under the water is a type of being buried with Christ in death. Coming out of the water is a type of being raised alive with Christ.

Verses 14-15 says we are no longer under the law (the law of sin and death), but we are not to yield to sin or we will come back under that law. We need to nail the sin principle in our lives to the cross. (Jesus was crucified, so now sin has no more dominion over us.) We must crucify the sin in our lives which means to die to self through God's resurrection power. If we yield to the Spirit of God, then sin will no longer have control over us.

Verse 16-18 tells us that when we yield to the devil and sin, at that moment we become Satan's servant. The "law of sin and death" begins at that time to work against us. That law produces fear, guilt, doubt, unbelief, sickness, etc., because we have become a servant of Satan. The moment we truly repent, we are back to being the servant of God and sin has no more dominion over us. When we walk in God's peace, we will even be able to walk the martyr's life filled with the resurrection power of Christ. We need to be in the place where we will would lay our life down before we would deny Christ or hurt God by sinning against Him. We should look different from those in the world! When we yield completely to Christ, we will be truly free. Daily, we must crucify self and let Christ live through us.

In water baptism, we baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, in the name of Jesus. This has been a controversial subject in the Body of Christ as some people baptize in "Jesus' name only." However scripture tells us how to baptize in Matthew 28:18-20:

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

This commission is given to disciples. Disciples can baptize those that are needing to be baptized. However, not all Christians qualify as disciples unless they are being obedient to the Lord's commandments. One cannot teach others until they are first taught themselves. The Bible teaches that disciples are to baptize others when they come to Christ.

In the above scripture, we see that we are to baptize in the name of each member of the Trinity, BUT we do it in the "authority and the name of Jesus Christ." Some people discount a water baptism if it was not done in "Jesus' name only." It is legalistic to say one has been baptized wrongly if they have been baptized in name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost since all is done in the authority of Jesus.

Acts 8:26-39 is a New Testament example of water baptism:

26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Here Phillip preached Jesus and water baptism. The eunuch received Jesus and was baptized in obedience to God's Word after he was "born again." From these verses we can see the importance of water baptism. Baptism in water is in obedience to God's Word, and by it we identify ourselves with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many" (1 Corinthians 12: 2-14).

The baptism into the Body is actually a baptism in the Blood of Christ at the time we are born again. We become a member of the body of Christ. It does not matter what denomination we are a member of, but rather what family we are "born" into. We become sons and daughters of God and are now members of the body of Christ when we repent and accept Him as our Savior. Our water baptism is the portrayal of that happening and a witness to the world that we are saved. If you have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior and have not been water baptized you need to be baptized today to seal your covenant with God.

Excerpt from the book Extremes or Balance? (Click here to order)

Cory
 
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