Baptism

[meleeman]

My view would be that there is no reason to baptize a baby. Here's why
*takes a deep breath*
Baptism is a symbol to others that you have been saved and are publicly saying so. So a rebaptism would just be a way of saying it to a new church. It would be the same as standing in front of everyone and saying "I was saved at (whatever age) and I wanted to let you know that."

Now, I'm not meaning to lower the impact of baptism, cause I think that every new believer should be baptized, but it isn't a necessary qualification to get into heaven. (I'm not 100%, but I don't think it says anything about those who were saved at Pentecost being baptized, or the thief on the cross).

Now being saved is a person coming to the understanding that they cannot make it on their own, admitting that they are a sinner, and accepting Jesus's saving grace.

So because a baby can't understand this or make the decision, (I'd say until they are at least 5 because a child just doesn't understand certain things clearly till about then or a little later) sprinkling a baby does nothing other than get him/her wet. Though I would agree that it could be used as a symbol that the parents are going to raise the child in a Godly manor....but shouldn't the parents be doing that anyway?

So in short: Baptism good; Baby baptism doesn't really do anything

Remember, this is just my opinion and how I see it so if you agree then great, if not, that's ok.

 

[Pelagrin]

My view would be that there is no reason to baptize a baby. Here's why
*takes a deep breath*
Baptism is a symbol to others that you have been saved and are publicly saying so. So a rebaptism would just be a way of saying it to a new church. It would be the same as standing in front of everyone and saying "I was saved at (whatever age) and I wanted to let you know that."

Now, I'm not meaning to lower the impact of baptism, cause I think that every new believer should be baptized, but it isn't a necessary qualification to get into heaven. (I'm not 100%, but I don't think it says anything about those who were saved at Pentecost being baptized, or the thief on the cross).

Now being saved is a person coming to the understanding that they cannot make it on their own, admitting that they are a sinner, and accepting Jesus's saving grace.

So because a baby can't understand this or make the decision, (I'd say until they are at least 5 because a child just doesn't understand certain things clearly till about then or a little later) sprinkling a baby does nothing other than get him/her wet. Though I would agree that it could be used as a symbol that the parents are going to raise the child in a Godly manor....but shouldn't the parents be doing that anyway?

So in short: Baptism good; Baby baptism doesn't really do anything

Remember, this is just my opinion and how I see it so if you agree then great, if not, that's ok.

Thanks for sharing your opinion, but is is based on scripture? Is there a place in the Bible where scripture states that, "Baptism is a symbol to others that you have been saved and are publicly saying so."

 

[Durruck]

I think this could go dangerously close to the "free will or election" thread - if you baptize an infant, did the infant choose to accept Jesus' sacrifice? Does God send an infant to Hell if they die before they've been baptized?

Jesus didn't force anyone to believe He was the Messiah that the prophets had predicted. He didn't force anyone to believe He died for their sins. He still let people choose to believe or not believe, to accept or not accept. Look at the thieves on the crosses. One chose to defend Jesus to the other. Jesus only told one thief that he would be in paradise. The other still chose to not accept that there was a forgiveness offering made on his behalf. If someone had tricked him into going out the the river and dunked him, would that thief have then been saved and baptized?

If so, I'm going to get all my friends and enemies together for a big pool party and trick them into jumping in after I say a prayer...and randomly start dunking everyone.

Baptizing an infant is like saying "you're saved because I say so... because I want you to be, you can't stop it and don't have a choice in the matter."

 

[cc.slim]

11 “I baptize with[d] water those who repent of their sins and turn to God. But someone is coming soon who is greater than I am—so much greater that I’m not worthy even to be his slave and carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.[e] 12 He is ready to separate the chaff from the wheat with his winnowing fork. Then he will clean up the threshing area, gathering the wheat into his barn but burning the chaff with never-ending fire.”

We can't light the candle within with the holy fire only pretend that we do!

 

[Pelagrin]

I think this could go dangerously close to the "free will or election" thread - if you baptize an infant, did the infant choose to accept Jesus' sacrifice? Does God send an infant to Hell if they die before they've been baptized?

Jesus didn't force anyone to believe He was the Messiah that the prophets had predicted. He didn't force anyone to believe He died for their sins. He still let people choose to believe or not believe, to accept or not accept. Look at the thieves on the crosses. One chose to defend Jesus to the other. Jesus only told one thief that he would be in paradise. The other still chose to not accept that there was a forgiveness offering made on his behalf. If someone had tricked him into going out the the river and dunked him, would that thief have then been saved and baptized?

If so, I'm going to get all my friends and enemies together for a big pool party and trick them into jumping in after I say a prayer...and randomly start dunking everyone.

Baptizing an infant is like saying "you're saved because I say so... because I want you to be, you can't stop it and don't have a choice in the matter."

Odd, I thought I replied to this already. I'm losing my mind. lol

I'm glad you pointed the connection between baptism and free-will/election. In order to properly understand the biblical purpose of baptism, one must also consider where saving faith originates. I'm still forming my understanding about what the Bible really says about the free will/election debate. I can't say I agree completely with Calvinists on it, but I also definitely disagree with the idea of decision theology. The Bible clearly says that God first chooses us and that we do not seek Him. However, I do think it's possible for a person to reject God. I have a theory about salvation, sin, and forgiveness, but I'm still working through it, but I digress.

The idea that baptism is "tricking" someone into being saved is a misunderstanding of the purpose. Water without God is just water. Water with God's Spirit connected to it is something much more.

Baptism is definitely linked to salvation. It is also written that repentance and baptism are for you and for your children. Should we exclude?

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” Acts 2:37-39

In the Old Testament, how old were children when they were circumcised? Had they reached the age of accountability yet? Where is the verse that says that God no longer wants to include infants in His covenant? Water alone does nothing. It is God's spirit in and with the water that cleanses. Can an infant have faith? I would have to argue yes. It is written that John the baptist leaped in his mother's womb. An important thing to remember that infants too are sinners. Dedicating them (which is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible) does not offer them forgiveness of sins. What hope do they have if they must make a decision?

to cc.slim
Salvation is not "lighting a fire". (if it is, please provide chapter and verse) Mormons base their salvation and belief on a "burning in the bosom." Charismatics also base salvation on an emotional high. As a child, I was raised to believe that I knew I was saved because I would be "on fire" for God. However, if my salvation is based on an emotional decision, then what happens when the emotional high fades? Will my faith hold true?

Also, which translation are you quoting? Properly translated, it should read, "baptize with water FOR repentance". God grants repentance. The bible is clear that we can not choose God. He chooses us. We do not light a fire, God provides salvation and forgiveness (which we do not deserve) through Christ.

 

[cc.slim]

The quote was John the Baptist via Matthew 3 verse eleven NLT version and as research unfolded I found the words in KJV and Amplified used are For, and Unto, and Because! Using Love as our guidance little is gained by the variance of words other than the fact that water is used as told and as a statement of faith for others to applaud.

The fire is lit by Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Luke 12:35 says for us to keep our lamps lit. Its true he died for us to have the opportunity to ask because we are not automatically bestowed with such a gift! If the fire fades then it never was lit for the fear of such a loss is part of our conviction to serve. A light on a hill is not under a basket. Fire in this sense is equal to the water for its not actually fire but the spirit that shines. Hence using Love as our guide this is showing that his choice of words are the best fit for our simple minds.

 

[tjguitarz]

But you may start getting into sticky lines about Catholics, LDS, and other denominations that don't fall in line with the "main" protestant churches (Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal, Lutheran, etc).

The Latter Day Saints are NOT Christian. I repeat, the cult of Mormanism is NOT Christian.

Note: I don't mean to derail the thread. I was just skimming through and thought I should point this out.

 

[Pelagrin]

I thought I'd bump this for the benefit of the guy that started the other baptism thread. There could be some interesting stuff in here for you to think about.

I have done a lot of research on baptism over the past few years and have changed my beliefs from those held by Baptists to the ones held by confessional Lutherans. I can go into it more if you like, but I think I covered most of it in this thread already. Essentially, I believe that scripture clearly teaches that the purpose of baptism is a method of God giving us repentance and forgiving us our sins.

I'll just leave it at that for now. The baptism scripture references are all throughout this thread.