Baby's going to hell

I believe that babies and small (young and innocent) do not go to hell. When I say innocent, I mean in the context of being unawares and naive. And what I believe is firmly taught in the bible to be so as well.

I think the first thing we ought to do is to look into the bible and see what it says what happens when a baby died in the bible. 2 Samuel 12 documents King Davids new born son as he became terminally ill. Versus 22 and 23 record David saying

"While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who can tell whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me"

emphasis added.

And David, through inspiration in Psalm 23:6, said his own erternal destination is "In the house of the Lord." So, where is King David going to go to be with his Son who just died? In the house of the Lord. AMEN!!!!
 
This is one of those controversial questions that may never be answered until Christ comes. Basically your question is (If I am to understand it right), "Are infants guilty before they commit actual sins? That is, are we all born with an innate sin nature that separates us from God, or is that acquired as we get older and sin of our own accord?

Some maintain that Scripture teaches an "age of accountability" before which young children are not held responsible for sin and are not counted guilty before God. However, Romans 5 seems to indicate that even before birth children have a guilty standing before God to view them as "sinners" (Ps. 51:5). The passages that speak of final judgment in terms of actual sinful deeds that have been done (Romans 2:6-11) do not say anything about the basis of judgment when there have been no individual actions of right or wrong, as with children dying in early infancy. Because of this, we must accept the scriptures that talk about ourselves as having a sinful nature from before the time of birth. Furthermore, its important to realize that a child's sinful nature manifests itself very early, within the first two years of life, as anyone who has raised children can affirm (Ps. 58:3 "The wicked go astray from the womb, they err from their birth,").

On the other hand, there have been those to whom God brought regeneration before they were born. One being John the Baptist (Luke 1:15), or David (Ps. 22:10 "Since my mother bore me you have been my God." However, this is not the usual way of God to save people. Salvation usually occurs when someone hears and understand the gospel and then places trust in Christ. But these exceptions can lead us to believe that God is capable of extending salvation to infants before they hear the gospel.

It is also important to note that in scripture God frequently saves the children of those who believe in him (Gen. 7:1; Heb. 11:7; Josh. 2:18; Ps. 103:17; John 4:53; Acts 2:39, 11:14, 16:31, 18:8; 1 Cor. 1:16, 7:14; Titus 1:6). These passages do not show that God automatically saves the children of those who trust in him (I have known many faithful believes who's kids want nothing to do with God), but they do indicate that God's ordinary pattern, is to bring the children of believers to himself. In regards to believers children who are very young, we don't have a reason to believe it would be otherwise.
David's son to Bathsheba in 2 Sam. 12:23 is a good example of this.

With regards to the children of unbelievers who die at a very early age, scripture is silent. We must simply leave the matter in the hands of God and trust him to be both just and merciful. If they are saved, it will not be on the basis of their own merits or innocence, but on the redemptive work of Christ and the Grace of God.

I hope that helped a bit, and Im sorry if I pushed anyones buttons. Know that it was unintentional. Topics like this can sometimes become very personal and heated between believers. I pray that is not the case here. ^_^

-Sama
 
Although those posts do give some very good thought to the matter of babies, All 3 of those posts have to do with denying the doctrine of original sin. In my opinion that is a dangerous and errant position. Here are some articles from John Piper that speak about the doctrine and why it is important and true, in his opinion.

Biblical evidence for original sin

What is the difference between original sin and imputed sin?

What is the biblical evidence for the imputation of Adam's Sin?

Why is the doctrine of the imputation of Adam's sin important?
 
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Biblically, we are all condemned to die because of Adam's sin. There is no denying that, and that is not the question at hand though. I don't beleive any of those sites are denying original sin or imputed sin. They are trying to answer the question of "do baby's go to hell" which is essential the question below:

Are we condemn to hell or gain access to heaven by our capacity to sin, original sin, imputed sin or by choice?
 
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Well, some food for thought. Can our own righteousness spare us from judgment? Is it possible for anyone to not sin and therefore be righteous before God? Even infants and children?

If a child were to be pure and righteous before they personally sinned, then they could technically save them selves. Or merit salvation through their own righteousness apart from God.

I believe that we are born into a state of depravity and sin, which prevents us from having fellowship with God. We cannot come into his presence. But, we are also judged on our works while on the earth.

I guess your question is when Paul says, "All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God." Is he talking about personal sin as separating us from God or imputed sin. I would say, yes.

Maybe the best answer is that both are counted against us. Im not sure if either is greater, or if only one is the basis for condemnation. But only one would seem enough.
 
Ok here is something to make you all trip out... are there 2 ways to be saved??

It sure seems so, check it...

LUKE 18
[18] A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

[19] "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good -- except God alone.

[20] You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'"

[21] "All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.

[22] When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

[23] When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth.
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It seems here that when point blank asked the question "how do i get saved" Jesus says the answer is..."Follow the 10 commandments"

Of course being born in sin, we can never live an entire life w/o breaking at least 1 commandment, so we all fail here and need Jesus payment on the cross.

A baby HOWEVER could die before they had the chance to ever break a 10 commandment, therefore getting access to heaven through the way Jesus clearly gave the rich young ruler!!

interesting thought eh? (of course there is little to no evidence other then this story to say there are 2 ways that Jesus gave to Heaven, but you have to admit, it is interesting nonetheless)
 
We all have the same options don't we? Perfectly keep the law or accept that we don't keep it perfectly and that Christ died as our sin sacrifice in lieu. That is still a choice. Does an infant or a very young child have the capacity to make such a choice?

What was Jesus eluding to in verse 22 that the man was lacking?

I'd argue faith in God. He very obviously made his riches and the pursuit of such the God of his life because when given the option of removing that god from his life to gain everlasting life, to be saved, he became said. I would say that it is also obvious that he followed the 10 commandments in deed only but not in his heart. And that is again exemplified by his being sad when told that he had to get rid of the riches.

This says to me, that right off the bat, Jesus showed us how this man broke the first commandment "You shall have no other God before me." - Keeping the commandments in deed only, not keeping them in his heart?
 
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KajiSama brought up an interesting point:

Salvation usually occurs when someone hears and understand the gospel and then places trust in Christ.
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Considered the covenant God made with the House of Isreal (and as Christians, have we not been brought under said house and covenant?) in Jeremiah 31:33-34

33 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."
 
Gods_Peon said:
Considered the covenant God made with the House of Isreal (and as Christians, have we not been brought under said house and covenant?)
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That depends heavily on your Hermeneutics. Does the Bible teach that the Church replaces Israel in Gods plan, or are the Church and Israel two separate parts of Gods plan? This is one of the differences between Covenant and Dispensational theology.

Personally I believe that Israel is distinct from the Church, and the promises made to that nation that have not been fulfilled with be fulfilled in the Millennial Kingdom (Christs 1k year reign on earth). The flip side to this is that the Church replaces Israel (They had their chance and blew it, so the promises made to Israel are transfered to the Church). That would include this statement in Jeremiah. The idea here is that Christ in now reigning on earth through the Church. But this interpretation leaves to many passages to be spiritualized rather then taking literally (when there is not good reason to do so).

In other words, this passage in Jeremiah is speaking of a time to come when Israel will be restored to the Promised Land (Read in context of chapters 30-33). This takes places around the time of Jacobs trouble (or the tribulation, Rev. 6-19) just before Christ's second advent.
 
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Sorry for the double post.

ewoksrule said:
It seems here that when point blank asked the question "how do i get saved" Jesus says the answer is..."Follow the 10 commandments"
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Gods_Peon said:
We all have the same options don't we? Perfectly keep the law or accept that we don't keep it perfectly and that Christ died as our sin sacrifice in lieu. That is still a choice. Does an infant or a very young child have the capacity to make such a choice?
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It sounds like you are saying that people can attain salvation through personal righteousness. That is, obedience to the Law. I would have to disagree.

Lets look at Paul's explanation of the purpose of the Law (10 commandments and such) in Galations 3. The Law was designed to point the peoples hearts toward God, not save them. As in Gal. 3:11 "No one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith.""

You may ask then, "how is it that anyone from the Old Testament might be saved?" The answer is that until Christ their animal sacrifices were incomplete, but made complete through Christ's work on the cross. They had faith in God and Christ to come.

My point is that not having violated the Law does not make one righteous before God. But obedience to the Law was interned to draw people closer to Him in faith. Salvation comes by Grace through Faith.
 
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The relationship between the Jews and the Church is a good topic but beyond the scope of this thread, imo. Worthy of its own thread.

Jeremiah 31:33-34 is a covenant on its own. And christians seem very headstrong on not understanding the covenants of the old testament. All things in the new testament are explained, detailed, prophecized, discussed in the old testament. You can not simply throw it away, you can not simply say it no longer applies.

Jeremiah 31:33-34 is a covenant by God with his people that God will make it possible for his people to know him on a personal level. To have the law, to have the word, to have Christ, who in the Gospel according to John, is the word, who came to fulfill not get rid of the law, written upon our hearts so that we may know God personally.

I do believe this covenant applies to everybody, including newborns. That they are born with Christ upon their hearts and intimate knowledge of that. And when they choose to first sin, to first break the law, they choose to replace the law, which gives freedom, with sin, which condemns us. Which I take to mean that baby, who has not sinned against God is not condemned to eternal seperation from God, they are condemned to die by original sin.
 
KajiSama said:
Sorry for the double post.





It sounds like you are saying that people can attain salvation through personal righteousness. That is, obedience to the Law. I would have to disagree.

Lets look at Paul's explanation of the purpose of the Law (10 commandments and such) in Galations 3. The Law was designed to point the peoples hearts toward God, not save them. As in Gal. 3:11 "No one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith.""

You may ask then, "how is it that anyone from the Old Testament might be saved?" The answer is that until Christ their animal sacrifices were incomplete, but made complete through Christ's work on the cross. They had faith in God and Christ to come.

My point is that not having violated the Law does not make one righteous before God. But obedience to the Law was interned to draw people closer to Him in faith. Salvation comes by Grace through Faith.
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The righteous will live by faith...faith in what? Lots of people say you must have faith but never fully explain in what it is you must have faith in. What is the law of righteousness that Paul talks about, what is the law of sin he talks about. We are no longer bound by the law of sin and condemned by it, rather we are bound to the law of righteousness. What is this law of righteousness...is it written down somewhere in the bible?
 
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Gods_Peon said:
The relationship between the Jews and the Church is a good topic but beyond the scope of this thread, imo. Worthy of its own thread.
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Agreed. ^_^

You can not simply throw it away, you can not simply say it no longer applies.
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Absolutely Agreed.

Jeremiah 31:33-34 is a covenant by God with his people that God will make it possible for his people to know him on a personal level. To have the law, to have the word, to have Christ, who in the Gospel according to John, is the word, who came to fulfill not get rid of the law, written upon our hearts so that we may know God personally.
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Yes, so the people whom the verse is talking about, and at the time which it is referring to, will have this occur to them.

I do believe this covenant applies to everybody, including newborns. That they are born with Christ upon their hearts and intimate knowledge of that. And when they choose to first sin, to first break the law, they choose to replace the law, which gives freedom, with sin, which condemns us. Which I take to mean that baby, who has not sinned against God is not condemned to eternal separation from God, they are condemned to die by original sin.
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I understand what you are saying, but I don't see the support for it. I don't see the evidence that the prophecy in Jeremiah has come to fruition and that it is referring to every human.

I believe you are right in that the best way to argue for the salvation of all infants is to deny a judgment based on original sin or sin nature. But even if this is true, most people still have trouble with accepting the reality that sin does manifest its self very early.
 
This is a little off topic, but I wanted to post an answer in case other people were also wondering this.

Gods_Peon said:
The righteous will live by faith...faith in what? Lots of people say you must have faith but never fully explain in what it is you must have faith in.
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I know what you mean. Faith is one of those 'christianese' words that people just throw around expecting everyone know what it means. When I talk about faith in context of the New Testament, I am typically talking about trust in God through Christ. It is a self-renouncing, trustful reliance upon God, and (in terms of salvation) on the sufficiency of Christs death for the cleansing of our own sin. Faith in the Old Testament often takes on the form of: resting, trusting, hoping in the Lord, cleaving to him, waiting for him, making him our shield and tower, taking refuge in him, etc. The contrast here as to not have faith would be to rest on ones own abilities or be self-sufficient.

What is the law of righteousness that Paul talks about, what is the law of sin he talks about. We are no longer bound by the law of sin and condemned by it, rather we are bound to the law of righteousness. What is this law of righteousness...is it written down somewhere in the bible?
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In romans 9:12, the law of righteousness refers to righteousness by obedience to the law (which was unattainable). The law of sin in Romans 7:23 is a principle that Paul explains as operating in the members of the body, that is his unredeemed and still sinful humanness (rom 6:6) waging war against his desire to obey God's law. While our minds and hearts have been redeemed and desire good our bodies still carry a sin nature (or the flesh).
 
What it boils down to is this, We don't have all the answers. We just have to have trust in God that his will be done. My heart tells me that Babys go to heaven. But in the end, God will do what is best. God is God, and we are not. Trust in him, and everything will work out for the best. =D

By the way, great discussion going on here. It's really great to be apart of this community. I can see the fire for God in your words. I think to myself *These are the people i need to surround myself with*. =D
 
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