Keero
Tribe of Judah Membership Administrator
Fruit salad indeed...
What does this have to do with Warhammer Online? xD
/runs away
What does this have to do with Warhammer Online? xD
/runs away
Awesome Atlanta Area Churches...
- Thread starter Odale
- Start date
Mordos
New Member
I agree with you on how Spurgeon was applying it, but we don't do that today, so where is the church body? it's not ever seperated from the goats. This can be very dangerous.
I have one final question: Do you think that the worship service should be based on the culture to appeal to the world?
I'll be done now, I know that I have a very consertitive view on worship.
If the church is only meeting on Sundays I would totally see your point. Most churches attempt to meet at other times for deeper teaching and discipleship. The Sunday morning is called Public Worship for a reason.
Loaded question, but I will answer it two fold.
1. You have a very limited view of worship if it is only song. Worship for me is being in awe of God and understanding who he is and my place before him. That being said worship is only about me and God.
2. If you are speaking of public worship services- then you are bending to some culture somewhere. To say that hymns are not based in a culture is simply silly. The Jewish culture was influenced by the things around them. The Psalms and Hymns of the old testament did not fall from heaven on stones or like mana. They were written by men and sometimes women who were impacted by their culture. Martin Luther took passages of scripture and poems and put them to bar tunes. Culture is a given on any song, message or human activity. It is there, you simply choose which culture you want worship. (PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't bring up the first church argument here. The first church was most impacted by its culture probably more than any time in church history.)
Whatever you want to call it. You are free to have the view. As long as you don't impose your views on others, or look down on them in a condescending manner, you can have almost any view you want. The issue is when you claim Biblical superiority or church history is on your side and use it like a hammer on other people.
I am not saying you are doing this, simply letting my thoughts be know on where the line is.
Odale
Active Member
This has turned into a very interesting conversation.
Gilga
New Member
I'll second that!
Baddwin
New Member
It certainly has become an interesting conversation. I think Mordos asks some good questions, and I think Icthus makes some good points.
The whole question of the place of culture in church/worship/faith is one that believers have wrestled with for centuries. And I think it's one that is central to our view of the mission of God in the world around us. Oftentimes in the middle of a message or study we'll hear something like, "Let's look at this in context. What did this message mean to the listeners of the day?" I believe that what that really means is, how did these words resonate to the Hebrew culture? They had a certain set of values, traditions, expectations, and understandings that gave this message a particular 'spin'...what was that?
I also think we need to look at how Jesus dealt with the culture around Him. Personally, I see Him directing His message directly into the culture of the day. Granted, I believe that Hebrew culture of the time had developed largely as a response to what God had done throughout their history, but we also see a significant part of that culture that didn't reflect God's intent, design, or plan. Jesus spoke and taught directly into that culture. He engaged the traditions of the Hebrews, told stories in ways that they could relate to culturally, and used their cultural context to reach out to people with His truth in ways that were relevant to the listeners.
I think we see a similar practice with modern missionaries, particularly those going into areas that haven't been exposed to the gospel yet. They go into a new culture and spend time getting to know the people, their language, their traditions, their beliefs, and their stories. They then begin to present the gospel to them in a culturally relevant context. Rather than just carrying along their King James Bibles and teaching in a traditional "Western church" context, they seek to make God's truth understandable and relevant to the listeners.
Personally, I don't see why we can't follow the same practice today in our culture. There are large areas of our culture that have a firmly established 'church tradition' that makes most people at least aware of and essentially familiar with the basics of Christianity. We have other areas of our culture, and I live right in the middle of one of those, that don't. The average person on the street in many areas has had no exposure whatsoever to Christianity aside from what they've seen of televangelists or some fanatic 'preaching at' them from some street corner. There's very little understanding of who God truly is or what His intent is in reaching out to humanity.
Given this lack in many areas, I think approaching these populations as a mission field is a very valid way to try to engage people for the purpose of presenting them with the gospel. Now, I want to draw a distinction here that I believe is vitally important. Much of the 'emergent church' movement is seeking to not only present 'church' in a culturally acceptable way, but also to redefine exactly what this 'gospel' is that they're presenting by watering down Biblical truth and altering the basic truths that God has revealed to people since creation. I am absolutely opposed to this, whether as a foundation for evangelism or for 'engaging culture'. God's truth is God's truth, period. It hasn't changed, it isn't changing, and it won't change. Those who try to change His message are no longer teaching His message, end of story.
Now, given that caveat, I have no problem with those who seek to take sound, biblical theology and combine it with culturally familiar music, dress, etc. There is much in modern culture that has no place in church, but when it comes to the 'feel of the environment', I personally don't think God cares whether we wear suits to church or wear shorts, sing traditional hymns versus contemporary worship songs, or teach about 'growing deeper in Christ' as opposed to teaching about 'sanctification'. I personally believe that God is infinitely more concerned with what's in our hearts than what's on our bodies.
Now, I realize that not everyone is interested in 'contemporizing' church. Many prefer hymns and tradition. That's fine. I've got no problem with doing things the way that they've been done for centuries - I just don't see any particular virtue for doing something just because it's how we've always done it (again, style, not theology...don't mess with doctrine!). I grew up in a traditional, fairly liturgical church environment, and personally prefer a more contemporary style of church, so I go to one of those now. I fully realize that many people would walk into my church and say, "Eh...I don't really like it." That's perfectly fine. Doesn't bother me a bit. I don't think any church can truly meet the preferences and needs of all people. If we try, we'll quickly find that we're meeting the preferences and needs of none.
Bottom line is that I think those seeking to take sound, biblical theology and introduce a culturally relevant environment to it are just fine, and have the potential to carry God's truth to people and places that just wouldn't listen otherwise. I also believe that those who prefer a more traditional approach are just as fine. The issue I have is when the latter stand in judgment of the former. God isn't limited in how He chooses to work. Sometimes we're comfortable with how He does things, sometimes we're not. Trying to limit Him to just what we like is treading dangerous ground. He gets to set limits on us, not vice versa.
<Wall of text crits you for 50,000. Press "Respawn" to continue>
The whole question of the place of culture in church/worship/faith is one that believers have wrestled with for centuries. And I think it's one that is central to our view of the mission of God in the world around us. Oftentimes in the middle of a message or study we'll hear something like, "Let's look at this in context. What did this message mean to the listeners of the day?" I believe that what that really means is, how did these words resonate to the Hebrew culture? They had a certain set of values, traditions, expectations, and understandings that gave this message a particular 'spin'...what was that?
I also think we need to look at how Jesus dealt with the culture around Him. Personally, I see Him directing His message directly into the culture of the day. Granted, I believe that Hebrew culture of the time had developed largely as a response to what God had done throughout their history, but we also see a significant part of that culture that didn't reflect God's intent, design, or plan. Jesus spoke and taught directly into that culture. He engaged the traditions of the Hebrews, told stories in ways that they could relate to culturally, and used their cultural context to reach out to people with His truth in ways that were relevant to the listeners.
I think we see a similar practice with modern missionaries, particularly those going into areas that haven't been exposed to the gospel yet. They go into a new culture and spend time getting to know the people, their language, their traditions, their beliefs, and their stories. They then begin to present the gospel to them in a culturally relevant context. Rather than just carrying along their King James Bibles and teaching in a traditional "Western church" context, they seek to make God's truth understandable and relevant to the listeners.
Personally, I don't see why we can't follow the same practice today in our culture. There are large areas of our culture that have a firmly established 'church tradition' that makes most people at least aware of and essentially familiar with the basics of Christianity. We have other areas of our culture, and I live right in the middle of one of those, that don't. The average person on the street in many areas has had no exposure whatsoever to Christianity aside from what they've seen of televangelists or some fanatic 'preaching at' them from some street corner. There's very little understanding of who God truly is or what His intent is in reaching out to humanity.
Given this lack in many areas, I think approaching these populations as a mission field is a very valid way to try to engage people for the purpose of presenting them with the gospel. Now, I want to draw a distinction here that I believe is vitally important. Much of the 'emergent church' movement is seeking to not only present 'church' in a culturally acceptable way, but also to redefine exactly what this 'gospel' is that they're presenting by watering down Biblical truth and altering the basic truths that God has revealed to people since creation. I am absolutely opposed to this, whether as a foundation for evangelism or for 'engaging culture'. God's truth is God's truth, period. It hasn't changed, it isn't changing, and it won't change. Those who try to change His message are no longer teaching His message, end of story.
Now, given that caveat, I have no problem with those who seek to take sound, biblical theology and combine it with culturally familiar music, dress, etc. There is much in modern culture that has no place in church, but when it comes to the 'feel of the environment', I personally don't think God cares whether we wear suits to church or wear shorts, sing traditional hymns versus contemporary worship songs, or teach about 'growing deeper in Christ' as opposed to teaching about 'sanctification'. I personally believe that God is infinitely more concerned with what's in our hearts than what's on our bodies.
Now, I realize that not everyone is interested in 'contemporizing' church. Many prefer hymns and tradition. That's fine. I've got no problem with doing things the way that they've been done for centuries - I just don't see any particular virtue for doing something just because it's how we've always done it (again, style, not theology...don't mess with doctrine!). I grew up in a traditional, fairly liturgical church environment, and personally prefer a more contemporary style of church, so I go to one of those now. I fully realize that many people would walk into my church and say, "Eh...I don't really like it." That's perfectly fine. Doesn't bother me a bit. I don't think any church can truly meet the preferences and needs of all people. If we try, we'll quickly find that we're meeting the preferences and needs of none.
Bottom line is that I think those seeking to take sound, biblical theology and introduce a culturally relevant environment to it are just fine, and have the potential to carry God's truth to people and places that just wouldn't listen otherwise. I also believe that those who prefer a more traditional approach are just as fine. The issue I have is when the latter stand in judgment of the former. God isn't limited in how He chooses to work. Sometimes we're comfortable with how He does things, sometimes we're not. Trying to limit Him to just what we like is treading dangerous ground. He gets to set limits on us, not vice versa.
<Wall of text crits you for 50,000. Press "Respawn" to continue>
Keero
Tribe of Judah Membership Administrator
Doh! 
Very interesting... Good points all around. There is a need across the body of Christ for such discussion. There is particular brand of church that believes they are the only one going to heaven. We need to be careful not to develop such an attitude toward our brothers and sisters in Christ from the many cultures around the world. Thanks all for your input.
Lord, help us all to understand the concept of the universal church versus the man-made organizations. Help us to understand that your love bridged the greatest gap of all. Help us to share that love in our lifestyles, our very living at home, work and play.
I realize this is not a complete prayer, but join me in it, flesh it out and make it your own, too.
Lord, help us all to understand the concept of the universal church versus the man-made organizations. Help us to understand that your love bridged the greatest gap of all. Help us to share that love in our lifestyles, our very living at home, work and play.
I realize this is not a complete prayer, but join me in it, flesh it out and make it your own, too.
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