Are christians truly free?

Ultima, let me repeat my earlier query: are you terminally stupid or being deliberately obtuse?

"So, what do you look like so I can ask God to point you out? You'll be weeping and wailing and gnashing teeth! That's painful! And I'd like to watch you go through it! Forever!"

If you're trying to be compassionate and merciful (as commanded), you'd at least find it in yourself not to OBSERVE AND BE SO BLOODY HAPPY THAT IT'S SOMEONE ELSE AND NOT YOU THERE. You'd find it in yourself to be sorry for whoever fell by the wayside, and perhaps even frustrated by the fact you couldn't help them.

By the way. Answer me this: supposedly, YOU end up being right and go to heaven like a good little prayboy. One of your loved ones refuses to accept salvation and burns (could happen, you know). Will you ask God to point that person out as well? Will you then thank him for being infinitely wise and merciful and then perhaps break out in the hymn of praise?
 
For your question, I'm gonna go with basic faith. Or would that answer upset you too much and cause you to question me again?
"So that way I can ask God to point you out when you're all screaming in pain while burning. NOt to be mean or cruel, or non-Christian, but you know I would like to see who it was that said that he would want the fuel started for him."
I believe the above is a more exact quote, if you look down a bit and expend some effort in reading past the first sentence.
So far I will feel sorry. But to date none have announced what Eon has. Eon is asking for the flames. That is his priority, though I would hate to see it. I don't think he'll ever turn away from his current beliefs to those of Christianity, but you never know. He just might. Then I won't have to ask to see him.
And if you think that you can get away by maliciously misquoting me and twisting my words into something they're not, I'll let you know ahead of time: it won't work.
And suppose I'm wrong? Suppose I die and all I ever see is nothing, for I am nothing? Suppose there is no God, or hierarchy of gods, or any religious superbeing at all. Just suppose. What have I to account for? I am the saddest of all people. The most misguided, the most pathetic.
Don't think I'm not sorry for those that burn, and those that will, or those that don't care whether or not they do. I do. I feel for them. I share my faith with them, and my beliefs. What good am I if I leave you alone to rot in yourself? I'm nothing. I'm not fulfilling what I'm called to. And I will not be left with a saddened God who looks at me and shakes his head for allowing someone to slip by me, and die without ever hearing the word of God from me. My faith is assured. If you refuse the word and end up burning, I'll just shake my head and be sad. What more could I do? I could not rescue you from the flames. I can only turn away and enjoy my own eternity. I will never rejoice for one who burns in hell. The angels rejoiced for me when I believed in Christ. Why should I rejoice when I see a fellow human burn? It's stupid and completely non-Christian.
I give you a Continue chance, Damar. You can choose to continue your mindless, baseless and overall inane attacks against me, and try to actually use some intellect against me.
 
Ah, congratulations. You've read my posts and compiled the information within. You then posted a reply that makes it apparent that you do have the feelings of remorse for the "hellbound" which I accused you of lacking. You also thoroughly denied feeling joyful over others' suffering.

That is admirable. The only thing regrettable is that you haven't affirmed or denied anything until *I* told you what to affirm or deny. That detracts from the impression made just a little bit.

Also, honestly tell me: do you think you have any chance at all of influencing me - or anyone intelligent, for that matter?

EDIT: You still haven't answered me what you'll do or feel if you discover that one of your near and dear is destined to burn. Forget that it's me in those flames for a moment; supposedly it's mommy dearest or daddy dearest or whoever you're dating right now. And you've got an ETERNITY to live with the fact that it's your near and dear down there, gnashing their teeth in your general direction as you sip ambrosia in your heavenly mansion. Now what?
 
personally if my parents/wife don't make it to heaven, would i be sad? yes. Would it in the long run bother me? probably not. We all have the same choices to make and I cannot control anyones decision. Did I do my best to ensure that they did get to go to heaven? yes. That's all that matters on that account.
 
And if that doesn't make you a cold-hearted sumbich in the long run, I don't know what does.
 
You've been asked quite nicely to not curse in these forums.


Now tell me, how does that make me cold hearted? I know I can't control people. If my wife decided to end her life through suicide, would I be devastated? yes. Would I get over it? yes.

Why should the fate of those resting in Hell affect me any differently?

In the long run, we get over the pains that the choices of others cause. We accept their choices, knowing that we cannot change them, and we move on. That is how it is, even in this world.
 
well CCGR i guess i am the only that read your post heeh yeah that would be an evil hell for them....

Anyone see Robin Williams live on Broad way? had a funny take on Osma going to Heaven........
 
Last one for today, I'm tired.

Kidan, put the soap away, you ain't gonna be washing my mouth with it today. 'Cause Damar Stiehl said so.

You're measuring your reactions up a wrong yardstick.

Any bad choice we make in this life is temporary. Things get fixed. Even if they don't get fixed, in the end everyone dies - it's the ultimate justice. Lost money can be regained, reputations restored, wounds healed, and even the incurable fleshly suffering eventually ends, in death.

There's no comfort of temporarity when we're talking eternity. Eternity is nasty: it doesn't end. If in this world you can wake up one morning and shed a tear for someone who died a bad death, you can at least say that it's done and over for them. When you know that you will exist for all eternity, and the suffering party will too, you can't say that their suffering will be over sometime. Tomorrow, it won't be any better than yesterday. And you'll live with it, because when we're talking eternity, nothing changes.

If you loved your wife very much when she died, but she didn't end up in heaven, will you stop loving her after you cross over? Will you just strike her out of your mind, knowing that she's not erased from existense - no, she very much EXISTS IN PAIN, every waking moment? Can you honestly say that you're capable of letting go of something like that?

If yes, then I've no quarrel with you: you're just as cold-hearted and evil as I am. I just don't bother with a mask. And if no, then how can you live with your God?
 
This is moronic Damar. Your lame fight is tiring me.
Here: You want me entire bio? You want to know my deepest thoughts? You want to know what I think of the hellbound? You want to know what I think if YOU go burn? You do huh?
Well. Here's what I think. I'm a chaotic, storming, easily enraged, hateful, spiteful, rebellious, doubting, cynical, hypocritical person. The hellbound, eh? Well, if they desire to burn, then that's their desire. I'm here to try as hard as I can to prevent that. If you die tomorrow, Damar, well, that will be a sad thing. I'll be sad that you'll burn, but you know, I'll get over it. I know so many that die, and I get over their deaths not long after, maybe I don't even have to get over them: I never really cared. Others, I don't shed a tear, but my soul is crying out for them to return. But I never voice it. Never. In heaven, it is said that God shall wipe away every tear. Sure, we'll be sad, maybe sad that we died, maybe sad that our friends and family are burning right now, but we can do nothing more, nothing but enjoy paradise forever. I shrug again. I can't change it. I won't try. I tried on this world, and the actions on this world carry into judgment for the next.
If my hypothetical girlfriend burns in hell, then what can I say? I wouldn't just let it go when I knew her. If I knew she wasn't a Christian, then I would try to evangelize to her. If not, well, then, it's all over. I'll be sad, but I can't do no more than that.
If my Dad burns, well, that will be a shocker, for sure. He is a decent Christian right now. I don't think he'll become an apostate. He might. Who knows? YOU might become an apostate to atheism, converting to Christianity. I dunno. But I do care for now.
Everything in this life amounts to something. But every choice we make has consequences. Perhaps you've never heard the Scripture, as I've quoted before, "The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord?" -Romans 6:23? BUt here is something interesting, on the sidenote, 1 John 4:17: "All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death." So....while all sin leads to death, there is some sin that does not immediately lead to death, or shorten your life, as God has said will happen if we continue in our sin after repenting of it. Don't forget that sin, when it is full grown, puts forth death. Hmmmm.
If my wife dies and is not in heaven with me, I will feel earthly pain, but the joy of being united with God will far exceed my loss with my earthly wife. I am now one of Christ's. I am part of his bride. I am at last with God, in a joyful harmony. I think that is far superior to the joyful/unjoyful harmony with a wife.
And yes, I do have a chance of influencing you: I already have, for better or worse. The fact that you read these posts and think about them, as you obviously don't, is an influence. If you read them and thought on them, then that too is an influence.
I may not influence you to Christianity, but I have influenced you; perhaps I have influenced you to complex thought....or is that possible?
 
Actually Damar has raised an interesting point... If you TRULY love someone then you NEVER get over losing them - you can learn to live with pain, because pain is part of the human condition, but ask a widower whether his new wife means he no longer sheds a tear for the wife he left behind who died of cancer.

If he says "yes" he's not really much of a man.

Oh don't get me wrong, you can rationalise almost anything over time - in the example of cancer, for example, you can say that at least death ended the horrific pain. But as Damar points out, in Hell it's just eternal torment. And eternity is a very, very, very long time... ;)

So let's say I recant and come skipping down to the Altar to get dunked, and have my forebrain skimmed with hot wires so that I no longer see or care about the things that make me reject Christianity now. And let's say that I'm married to a Wiccan, because I loved her before my conversion, and I still love her afterwards. (Which is fine with God, right? He says hate the sin but love the sinner - so long as I attempt to steer her back onto the right path, I'm not doing anything wrong).

We both die and, in the end, she goes to Hell and I go to Heaven. So she gets ETERNAL TORMENT whilst I get blissful Elysium. How can I actually find Elysium blissful whilst the woman I love is BURNING forever? Your answer is that God will wipe away every tear - in other words he'll lay some kind of heavenly Prozac on me, so that I don't remember, or care anymore. Yeeesh... That's one scary afterlife you guys have...

Eon
 
Very well put Eon, I wonder if that'll get through. Cosmic prosac... selective memory erasure... or just a massive constant supply of endorphins (or its spiritual equivalent)?

Take your pick. Any choice is equally scary. Sort of like being hooked up to an IV drip with euphorics in it, forever and ever. So much joy you can't even think for yourself anymore. Of course you don't remember or care about those who ended up in Hell. You're simply too stoned.

Some afterlife.

By the way Ultima. You realize that you've repeatedly turned yourself inside out for a complete stranger, and an openly malicious one at that. I'm getting to know you very, very well. What do you know about me? You don't even know what my avatar's face looks like...
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]it's the ultimate justice
Click to expand...

No, the ultimate justice is the torment that comes from eternal seperation from life which is God.

Will it bother me? Yes. Will I be upset? Yes. Will I get over it? Yes. What is, is. Quite Simple. I am not cold hearted or evil. Just because I realize that I can't force people to make a desicion for Christ (which is something you accuse Christian's of) doesn't mean I'm cold hearted and evil. If my wife whom I have shared the gospel, taken to church, showed the love of Christ through the ways I treat her, never comes to know Christ, I cannot change that. I will have to accept it. What is, is.

It is more along the lines of you learn to live with the pain, as Eon said. Does it go away? No. But I would get over it/learn to live with it.


Eon, as for your example, Yes it is fine with God, as long as you don't divorce her, provided she wants to stay with you, now onto the actual question...

let's turn it the other way, say you are picked by a Valkrye to go to Valhalla, what happens when your wife dies, and her Hamingjur leaves her and she gets to go to Niflheim and there she must drink burning venom and is subjected to the nine realms of torture.

Wow, and this is all based upon your actions. Whether or not a single god decides you have been good or bad. The question is the same. but the answer is, what is, is.
You will get over it.
 
Well, if my wife was the kind of woman who couldn't even get into the ancestorhame then she'd deserve to go drink burning venom - after all, only the foulest sort of oathbreaker goes there...

Eon
 
You've already showed me your colors, Damar.
It's kinda easy to tell who my avatar is....but do you know his personal problems? HIs past loves and losses? How his dad used to beat him in a dungeon when he was a boy? No. So my avatar is as explainable as yours.
And, uh, the avatar raises no point to my soul...
So I'm a stranger, am I? That's just fine with me. I'll be an openly malicious one, at that. But, first, how am I malicious? Please, enlighten me.
I dunno, Eon. If my wife died, and I REALLY loved her, and I mean actually loved, her, then I would definitely miss her, and I don't think any amount of new wives could replace that memory, or any memory of another dead wife, or dead parents, or dead best friend, or anything like that. Death is two things: a uniter and a divider. It unites one to an eternity, and it divides one from another. Very interesting, that.
Now, uh, last I checked Eon, Baptists didn't skim your cortex with hotwires to make you forget the stuff that you point out and debate with us now...you're still human after becoming a Christian....at least, I think I am. Not sure about what happened to you last you went to a church that baptized.
The thing is this: God judges me for my actions on Earth. And for those actions, I am either rewarded or detracted from in the judgement day. So, suppose I convert as many people as Billy Graham has....I get rewarded for that in heaven. But, suppose I lie to as many people as Peter Popov did, then I am judged for that accordingly, and I don't get rewarded for that, definitely not. God does not reward sin, as so many do.
I cannot explain eternity, I cannot explain pain, I cannot explain tears, I cannot explain hell, I cannot explain heaven. It is something one must experience. What I do know is this: heaven and hell are separated forever. Those in hell can't find heaven, and those in heaven can't find hell. It's impossible. Christ's death emptied Sheol, and now there is a heaven, and a hell. Where they are, I do not know. Where they are, I do not care. All I know is that all who live will one die find theirselves at one place or another. I know I shall find myself in heaven, despite my sins that I have committed. I have placed my faith in Christ.
I wish death wasn't as it is, Eon, but it is. I wish that when I die, I will be able to be with all my dead non-Christian friends. But I won't be able to. It's just impossible.
And heaven will not be a constant drip of Prozac. No. It wil be something totally different. Let me try and put it best this way: there are two people in this world: those of Christ and those that aren't. Those that aren't are of the devil, it is said, the prince of the air, Satan. We are bonded to two separate masters, one to Christ, one to Satan. Some people love their bonds, others hate them. Some see the bonding to Christ as worse than being bound to Satan, so choose to take their side with him. Others see Christ as far superior to Satan, and choose to take their side with him. We are currently living our lives to our two masters. When we die, we will go to be in a junction with our two masters. Christ's shall be a euphoric union, and the others' union with their master, the devil, shall be a painful, chaotic, burning one, and he shall burn with you, cursed as you are. Isaiah 14:12-17 states, "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart: I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High. Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the Pit. Those who see you will gaze at you, and consider you, saying: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world as a wilderness and destroyed its cities, who did not open the house of his prisoners?'"
Well, that's pretty deep. Satan is as fallen as his followers. He shall burn with them all, and they will look at him and wonder, "Geez, this is my leader. And he's down here, with ME? He tore up the world! He killed those who wouldn't follow after him! And now he's here, as equal as the rest of us?"
Interesting. Very interesting. I would hate to be in eternal torment with my lord. That is a very, very, very poor leader, if that be the case. I would much rather be on the winning side.
And it is there that the two sides must part: one can yearn after the other, but the other cannot after the one. It is impossible. In heaven, there can be no sadness, because it is God up there. In hell, there can be sadness abundant, and it is said there will be. If my wife burns down there, geez, that sucks. But I can do nothing of it, and I cannot go to her. And if I do, and she will know of me, because I would have told her all that talk of God and love and Christ and salvation and forgiveness of sins and all that, and she will look at me, and say, "YOU! You put me here! Why didn't you try harder? Why am I here? Why am I in this pain? YOU put me here! You didn't tell me!" That would suck even more. It is said in SCripture that there shall be anguish and the pointing of the finger from person to person on who to blame for being there in hell.
BUt who can we blame for those in heaven? Christ alone. Geez, thanks! I'd love to blame him for being in heaven. Seriously, I would.
 
Anyone wishing to discuss this matter further with Damar Stiehl will have to e-mail him privately at olgerthheidern@hotmail.com

He has been banned from the CGA forums; for more information regarding his banning, please read this forum thread.

This thread is not closed. Please feel free to continue your discussion.
 
Not sure if I feel comfortable doing so - until I understand what SPECIFICALLY caused his banning.
 
Harassing us. Calling us names. Being an idiot. Swearing unnecessarily. Basically that's it. Oh yeah, and saying the one of the stupider things you could to an admin. Disrespect, completely. I have a hard time believing he's adult.
 
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